The Rapture & The Second Coming Of Christ

[Hindsfeet]

 

Same event, the first resurrection in Rev. chapter 20 is the first opportunity for a rapture and resurrection which happens at the second coming. The pre-trib crowd tries to say the rapture happens before the tribulation, for that to work they have to add a resurrection before the tribulation, but the Bible records the time of the first resurrection.  

 

Yes, the Bible does record the first resurrection... in Matthew 27.  It occured between Christ's death on the cross and before His burial.

 

⁵¹ And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. ⁵² The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, ⁵³ and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. ⁵⁴ When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled with awe and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!”

 

Matt 27:51-54 ESV

 

Isnt this the Firstfruits of the harvest?

[Sparky]

 

 

Same event, the first resurrection in Rev. chapter 20 is the first opportunity for a rapture and resurrection which happens at the second coming. The pre-trib crowd tries to say the rapture happens before the tribulation, for that to work they have to add a resurrection before the tribulation, but the Bible records the time of the first resurrection.  

 

Yes, the Bible does record the first resurrection... in Matthew 27.  It occured between Christ's death on the cross and before His burial.

 

⁵¹ And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. ⁵² The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, ⁵³ and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. ⁵⁴ When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled with awe and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!”

 

Matt 27:51-54 ESV

 

Isnt this the Firstfruits of the harvest?

 

Might first instinct was to agree.  However, I think Christ's resurrection was the First Fruit(s) according to Paul in 1Cor 15:20 "²⁰ But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep."  So I am honestly not sure?  I may be using the wrong terminology to refer to this event?  But folks getting up out graves and wandering around sounds like a resurrection to me.

 

And the timing of this event always struck me as odd.  Why would they come out of the grave after His death, but before His burial and therefore obviously before His ressurection??  Thus these are clearly OT saints.  Yet, they did not go into the Holy City until after Christ's resurrection three days later.  But this is possibly digressing from the Rapture discussion and I do not mean to do that.

 

Could there not be a 'harvest' from the OT, the NT (Church Age) and then again distinctly from the Tribulation?  Perhaps even from the Millenium also?  They're going to have to get form this earth to the New Earth somehow?

 

*Trying* to steer myself back on topic, where did these saints, first fruits or not, go and when??  Were they, um, 'raptured'??  I am honestly asking here?  No sarcasm intended or anything.

 

I never really thought about until now, but I always associated them as, I dunno, 'former fruits' or something since they were resurrected prior to Christ's resurrection and from the OT, but since they were not onto Heaven until after His resurrection perhaps I should see them more a NT persons (as you say First Fruits) than as OT persons??  I guess that I just never saw God as limited to one--and one only--resurrection-like event.

 

Just thought this event was being overlooked, but perhaps it was long ago discarded as being relevent to the topic?

 

God bless.

[Willa]

A few notes.

In Chap 4-5 the 24 thrones had men who had been made both kings and priests. This distinction was given only to Christians.

Vs 5:9-10 they had been redeemed by the blood of Christ and will reign with Him

The seals are an outline. Parts of them are further explained in the subsequent chapters, especially the sixth. 1-5 is the great trib. It is all caused by men via wars and men

The 6th is the wrath of God. We the church are spared from the wrath of God.

144,000 Jews are then sealed by God and must go through the wrath in Rev 7.

A great multitude which came out of the great trib are then revealed in heaven; they have white robed washed in the blood of the Lamb, and will serve God day and night in His Temple. It goes on speaking much like chap.20. This may indicate it is the church and that it came out of the trib prior to the wrath of God.

The 7 trumpets go on to expond upon the 6th seal in more detail, discribing the events of the wrath of God which was intended for unbelievers. It indicates demonic activity.

Chap 11 is about the 2 witnesses who lay in the streats of Jeruselem where the Lord was crucified, and then were resurrected and ascended into heaven. After an earthquake many gave glory to God--were saved?

The 7th trumpet reveals the kingdom of Christ and rewards are passed out. The church is in heaven. It states His wrath has come while these rewards are being handed out at the judgement of the righteous deeds of the saints.

We have to remember that the elect also include the inhabitants of Israel who repent and receive Christ. There will be `others around the world who will be saved during the wrath. These are likely the ones who will be called from the 4 winds in Matt 24:31.

I do believe that the church is to be spared from the wrath of God, but it may have to endure part of the great trib. We are told the Jesus will not return till the antichrist is revealed and the apostacy has happened. The antichrist is revealed at the beginning of the great trib according to Matt 24. So it is possible to occur then but certainly happens before the wrath. 1 Thess 5:10 Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

[GlidingWings]

 

The word "rapture" does not occur in the Bible.The concept of the rapture is clearly taught in scripture.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

Well, it sort of is, it is a tranliteration of rapiemur in the Latin

16 quoniam ipse Dominus in iussu et in voce archangeli et in tuba Dei descendet de caelo et mortui qui in Christo sunt resurgent primi 17 deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus 18 itaque consolamini invicem in verbis istis

16 For the Lord himself will come down, command with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we be always with the Lord, therefore, 18 comfort one another with these words

mpat translation prefer to translate words, which I think is helpful. When one transliterates, a bit of confusion sometimes follows. For example, our bibles use the word baptism, thich is a transliteration of baptismo in the Greek, had they translated that isntead, they would have used the word immersion. Translations are not perfect, that is why it is helpful to dig deeper sometimes.

 

Well actually Ancient languages such as Hebrew and Greek or any language whatsoever are not perfect either. First I believe some of the most ancient languages use many symbols and pictures as Ancient Egypt for example. But even their day’s symbols or ancient words can have more than one definition. Those who translate from the ancient texts try very carefully to choose the most accurate translation to our modern day English Bible.

It is such why like the word House. Jesus says in my Father’s House or in his kingdom. The Translators in today’s English tried to at best give the best assigned word and definition to our own understanding of these ancient languages.

But we really can’t say these ancient languages reveal everything either to us today. John Hagee is good with ancient languages and History. He is a Pre Trib believer. But I can also find a Post Trib believer with all the same academic scholarly understanding of ancient languages who even in those same languages will say Post Trib is more correct than Pre Trib. So I have seen that use Ancient text to try to prove Pre trib is correct. And those using ancient text to prove Post trib is correct.

The lesson is if we can agree and disagree in English. We can also agree and disagree in Hebrew and Greek as well. After all when Jesus spoke Aramaic it was the language they understood. Consequences.. Some people believed Jesus and followed him by faith while others rejected Him calling Jesus a liar and Blasphemer. They the ears received not only the original language but even He Jesus, the Son of God Himself.  So this shows language is never perfect.

So we trust in God whether one uses King James old English, New standard version which is more modern English to we know of, to those who study ancient languages will also need to arrive to the best of the understanding of God’s Words. God is the Spirit of Truth. We should seek his guidance primarily above all things because God is able to speak any language. God is the Truth and God can if we are willing He will lead us that way. It does not mean we will ever in this life have perfect understanding. We are human and know only into percentages. God is perfect and knows all things.  . Other words if a man is in prison and all he has is one Bible God won’t chastise him for not knowing ancient languages. There are plenty in our English Bibles this man of prison can follow God’s way even as of us out of prison too because God’s words set us free.  .

[GlidingWings]

A few notes.

In Chap 4-5 the 24 thrones had men who had been made both kings and priests. This distinction was given only to Christians.

Vs 5:9-10 they had been redeemed by the blood of Christ and will reign with Him

The seals are an outline. Parts of them are further explained in the subsequent chapters, especially the sixth. 1-5 is the great trib. It is all caused by men via wars and men

The 6th is the wrath of God. We the church are spared from the wrath of God.

144,000 Jews are then sealed by God and must go through the wrath in Rev 7.

A great multitude which came out of the great trib are then revealed in heaven; they have white robed washed in the blood of the Lamb, and will serve God day and night in His Temple. It goes on speaking much like chap.20. This may indicate it is the church and that it came out of the trib prior to the wrath of God.

The 7 trumpets go on to expond upon the 6th seal in more detail, discribing the events of the wrath of God which was intended for unbelievers. It indicates demonic activity.

Chap 11 is about the 2 witnesses who lay in the streats of Jeruselem where the Lord was crucified, and then were resurrected and ascended into heaven. After an earthquake many gave glory to God--were saved?

The 7th trumpet reveals the kingdom of Christ and rewards are passed out. The church is in heaven. It states His wrath has come while these rewards are being handed out at the judgement of the righteous deeds of the saints.

We have to remember that the elect also include the inhabitants of Israel who repent and receive Christ. There will be `others around the world who will be saved during the wrath. These are likely the ones who will be called from the 4 winds in Matt 24:31.

I do believe that the church is to be spared from the wrath of God, but it may have to endure part of the great trib. We are told the Jesus will not return till the antichrist is revealed and the apostacy has happened. The antichrist is revealed at the beginning of the great trib according to Matt 24. So it is possible to occur then but certainly happens before the wrath. 1 Thess 5:10 Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Hi Willamina. I can tell your acknowledging both that Christians need to watch to the abomination is revealed. You’re also taking notice that the wrath of God will not abide upon His people. . It would appear God would need to take the people nearly after the Abomination has been revealed to avoid God’s wrath. As one pointed out maybe it’s during the 5^th seal and before the last seal. Actually God repeats himself so we can understand his plan for us. God will keep all his promises. Both promises of the Rapture and Second coming will happen after the abomination and also God’s wrath will not abide either.

Take a look at Lot, Abraham, and Joseph in Genesis Daniel, David or even Job. All these Biblical men and women face Great Tribulation upon themselves. God did not take them off the Earth for being in great danger. He did not take His Disciples either. So why would God now do anything much different than what God has always done? When we read the Bible we believe what God says and how things had happened or will happen.

The best way to understand the 7 years of Daniel is to know of Moses and his people in the land of Egypt. God was angered at the king and the task masters. God sent ten plagues His wrath upon the land. God’s people were present in the land of Egypt during all 10 plagues. God made discernment between His people and these wicked people in the land. In every circumstance Moses and God’s people did not see the Ten Plagues.

In the 7 year Tribulation even likewise the trumpets and bowls will ‘not’ be poured out on God’s people and true believers. In the Passover in Egypt God saw the Blood over the door post. During the 7 years God will see the Blood of Jesus in the heart of true believers which God will pass over them. So we will have to wait the 7 years before the rapture and second coming.

How do we know for sure? Take a look in Daniel Chapter 12. This chapter is comparable to Matthew 24. Also this is the same gathering in 1 Thessalonians 4: 15-17. Daniel though asked when are these things to happen. He is told to seal these things up to the End. What is the End? We are then given the days of 1335 days after the abomination. Then it is told Daniel may receive his reward at the End of these days. Since the abomination of this is also told in Matthew 24 we as Christians even as Daniel are to wait till the end of these days.

We are a part of this Bible Prophecy because of Matthew in New Testament book. It is a book for both Gentiles and Jews of all believers. . Therefore we can be sure when God in the New Testament speaks of this Abomination and Tribulation even to give us details what this antichrist actually should appear to us in his image, it is sure then God has told us this message we ought to take notice. Would God describe all this if Christians were not here?  But knowing we are here God told us what to look out for.

Take notice of all End time verses. If God included this in the New Covenant then we will be a part of this. Is leaving 7 years earlier really giving ones Life to the Lord? Does that really mean being faithful to the end? I don’t think so. But anyone who can endure those 7 years will be proven they have been faithful to God to the very end of the age. So both the dead in Christ and those alive in those days after 1335 days has passed this is the day we ought to be looking for. The day we desire to meet with the Lord.

[Montana Marv]

GW

 

Quote from your post above:  Take notice of all End time verses. If God included this in the New Covenant then we will be a part of this. Is leaving 7 years earlier really giving ones Life to the Lord? Does that really mean being faithful to the end? I don’t think so. But anyone who can endure those 7 years will be proven they have been faithful to God to the very end of the age. So both the dead in Christ and those alive in those days after 1335 days has passed this is the day we ought to be looking for. The day we desire to meet with the Lord.

 

This is salvation by works.  Not salvation by faith.  So in essence, if you died today "you would go to hell" based on what you just said, as would all the other believers who have already died.  You have to do something to prove you are worthy.  Going through the 70th week.

 

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved.   Period   Not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ plus do this or that.  If I do enough good verses bad I will make it to heaven.  If I do this or that, I am righteous before Christ.  If I pray 40 times a day, I am righteous before Christ.  If I last 7 more years to the end I am righteous before Christ.  It is not what I did or will do that saves me, It is what Christ has already done that saves me. 

 

You are basing your worthiness on what you will do, not on what your present situation is.  This line of thought is no different than early Jewish Christians saying a Gentile must be circumcised or observe all the Jewish feasts or holidays to become a believer. 

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Sparky]

d

 

Is this a 'Christianized' version of "dee dee dee"?  If so, I forgive you.  If not, I apologize for the mere suggestion it might have been. Though an alternate explanation would be nice.  Nah, on second thought, never mind.

 

You are right about one thing, I am too ignorant to be here.  I naively came to learn, not with a prepared position to argue.  I am clearly in the wrong place.  Please forgive me guys (and gals of course!) for the waste of time.

 

God Bless

 

"Father, bless ENOCH2010.  And forgive my ignorance.  In Jesus name.  Amen."

[Willa]

I also note that the book of the Revelation seems to be written to the Jewish people after the church age, and most certainly so after the seals. The book is then based on the Jewish feasts. The feast of trumpets, that plagues of Egypt and the Passover, and temple worship. The bowls and trumpets even are a part of the temple ritual, which also is a picture of the tabernacle in heaven. It is not written in pictures that we gentiles understand as easily so I believe this part is addressed primarily to Israel and the Jews.

I believe that many will be kept by God during the trib, especially the 144,000 Jews, but not all believers will go through it. I don't know if they will be removed by the wars and famines, or if they will be like the church of Philadelphia in 3:11 and kept from the trib.. There are also some pretty severe disasters that lead up to the great trib. We are not fully assured of a future without trials.

But I do agree that the rapture could happen at any time, without warning and unexpectedly. The second coming happens when Jesus returns WITH His church. So I continue to look for his coming. The second coming has all the nations aware and preparing to do battle with Him, and every eye shall see Him. The rapture will occur when noone is ready. And 2 Thess 1: speaks of repaying with tribulation those who trouble you, so I am not sure whether the church will be removed before the great trib as the church at Philadelphia, or before the wrath. Certainly Jews will be protected through it as was Noah et all, and perhaps this will be true of those who are saved during the trib and the wrath.

1 Thess 1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1Thess 5:9 for God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:9 much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. NKJV

I am not looking for escapism as some accuse us of. I am seeking to rightly divide the Word of truth while considering all pertinant Scripture. I do not see the church going through the wrath. I see the Jews going through it, and many being kept by God's power. I see Jesus 2nd coming to be with His church. It is difficult to discern the distinct order because prophecy skips around a lot. But I am sure events will become more clear as they unfold before us. Already our nation has turned against Israel and the nations are alligned so as to be ready for the Ezekiel 38 war. Nuclear events are sure to happen between Israel and Iran, and when they do we may become the victims of an attack in the USA. "I know not what the future has of marvel or surprise, we only know that life and death, His mercy underlies". Whittier, the Eternal Goodness.

Our pastor has an interesting take on Rev 8:8 events. The word star is aster, which is our asteroid. Should it be a large one falling into the Atlantic, it would cause a huge tseunami, wiping out a third of the shipping, the seaports, the life. A biproduct would be sulpheric acid, sulpher dioxide and a poisoned sea that would kill off life. Moreover this would also cause acid rain from the vaporizing of ocean water, and severe greenhouse effect and the other things discribed subsequently. It is an interesting explanation worth considering. He had all the chemical reactions explained as well, but I don't have my note at hand.

Over and over we read that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience. And repentance brings escape from the wrath to come according to John the Baptist.

[Guest DRS81]

How can/why would the 'rapture' occur (Come up Hither) at the second coming, if the two witnesses are Raptured beforehand (Come up Hither)?

a. a multi-part rapture?

b. the two witnesses are the only believers left at that point? And at what point are they come up hithered? Mid, to Great, yes?

c. John specifically left out the names when God says 'Come up hither, X and Y' to keep us in suspense?

d. 'Come up Hither' is not the Rapture nor the Resurrection.

 

Come up Hither in Rev 4:1 is not talking about rapture OR resurrection. It was a vision given to John, and the vision was the great tribulation, thus Rev 6-18. Blessings.

[GlidingWings]

Well most everything seems to be agreed upon. The only the timing of the Rapture Post trib is hard to understand in the Pre trib aspect of seeing things. They have been taught the 7 years is Noah’s flood. In that case we cant’ be here. Well God told Noah in 7 days go on to the Ark. After Noah waited for 7 days he went on the Ark like commanded.  . The Covenant with Israel is 1 week or 7 days or 7 years. God is dealing with 7.  . So the 7 years actually represented the days of Noah when he lived on the Earth. As Noah had to wait for 7 days to get on the Ark also we are to wait 7 years for Jesus to bring the ark. Noah’s flood actually represents ‘The Son of Man’. The day of the son of man actually happens at the end of the Trib. We also call this the End of the Age.

There is only one last day. There is only one day of the Son of man. There is only one 7^th Trumpet. Matthew 24 and 1Thessalonians both has a trumpet. Which one is the 7^th? The answer is this is the event spoken to us in the New Testament. Genesis 1 God created the Heavens and the Earth. Now look at all other verses God created the Heavens and the earth. If we take that literal that God has repeated then we would believe God created the earth over 100 times just because the way it is said is not exactly as Genesis chapter 1. In many ways we are told of Gods creation. So in several ways we are told of this end time event. It’s all one story. .

 The Rapture involves both the Dead and the living those who have died in Christ and those who are also alive. Why should one believe that those who are dead need to escape the 7 year tribulation? They the Dead have nothing to run to. They are already safe.

The purpose of the Rapture and Resurrection is to meet with the Lord. These are the faithful in Christ. They endured in all things in their life. 1Thessalonians does not say Jesus took them higher. It only talks about meeting with them in the clouds and they shall ever be with him.

Take a look at the book of Jude and Revelation. In every picture you will always see the saints going downwards. Since one can’t prove this in Matthew 24 or Jude or Revelation they can only assume 1Thessalonians 4. Because this is the only place they can try to support this as being a separate event also having to make Matthew 24 yet another end time event.  . This is modern teaching. This is no Tradition Christian Theology. This Rapture before the Trib is unorthodox from what Christians have learned and studied for centuries. Why should we be any different from them? Why has the Gospel suddenly changed?

Thos Jews that practice Judaism don’t read the New Testament. There is no reason to read Mathew 24 or the book of Revelation because they don’t accept Jesus as Messiah after all. The only mostly purpose to meet with Christ is only they that are caught up with change in a new glorified incorruptible body. Only in this way they can rule with Christ for 1000 years. They could not do this in their own body. Why does not God change them on the ground? Why do they have to meet Jesus in the air to do this?  I am not certain of this as of now.  

But God has a reason to meet in this place for a being joined with Jesus Genesis 1:8. Then God called the firmament of the Earth of it atmosphere. Heaven and the evening and the morning were the second day. This is the only heaven which believers will meet with Christ in the Air. This is the only one they will come down from. It may not sound logical to our every day kind of thinking but if Jesus Rapture and left and then came back He would break his promise. What promise?  The promise in how He would return next time which is why Jesus left only once in one bound upward to the heaven. So in like wise He will also do the same. We know Jesus will repeat this same exact action with no heaven in between. He will go up once and he will come down once. That is why it is called Second Coming of Christ.