The butterfly

[LatentAuthor]

 

4. On to the evolution of this metamorphic trait. In the animal kingdom you have incomplete and complete metamorphosis. Caterpillars undergo complete metamorphosis, and it is believed to be derived from incomplete metamorphosis. Incomplete metamorphosis is seen in insects like crickets and cockroaches, where the young look similar to the adults but without certain adult features like wings. The young are called "nymphs" and go through a series of molts which turn the nymphs into adults. But before the nymphs were nymphs they were "pronymphs", depending on the species this pronymph stage is over before the egg hatches or the insect can remain in the stage for up to several days after hatching from its egg before molting into a true nymph. Pronymphs are soft-bodied, worm-like, and have non-fully developed nervous systems, all similar to caterpillars and other insects that undergo complete metamorphosis. It is thought that larva like caterpillars are virtually in a prolonged state of being a pronymph. The genes and hormones responsible for the incomplete and complete metamorphosis are similar, and you can see hormone similarities if you align the pronymph stage to the larva stage and the nymph stage to the pupa stage. The big evolutionary advantage to complete metamorphosis is that the young and adults require different resources (e.g. caterpillars eat leaves while butterflies eat nectar). This means that the young and old are not competing for the same resources which allows any given place to support more butterflies/caterpillars than it would otherwise, and the more of a species you can have the more likely it is that that species will survive. 

 

Hi D-9,

 

This is really fascinating. Although it seems unbelievable, I guess I can certain envision the evolution of an incomplete metamorphosing animal into a complete metamorphosing animal, especially if, as you say the genes are quite similar.

 

But how does mutation and natural selection explain the step of going from a non-metamorphosing animal to the incomplete metamorphosing animal?

I'm thinking that you'd need to add quite a bit of information to the animal's genome to do this. At the very least you'd need the information to not only specify what changes need to occur, but where they should occur, and also when.

It wouldn't make sense for an insect to develop antennae inside its belly, and it would make sense to have antennae before it has the software to interpret the signals coming from the antennae, etc.

 

Then I'm also wondering if biologists have identified a plausible lineage? Have they found fossilised precursors of metamorphosing animals?

The reason I'm asking this is because I wonder if it's at all possible to identify such precursors as the adult and the juvenile animals would have different characteristics, they're most likely to be classified as different families instead of being seen as a juvenile and adult versions of the same species, not so?

 

 

There is a vast amount of research easily available on this topic - perhaps it warrants investigation on your part.  It certainly couldn't hurt.

[gray wolf]

Excellent narrative, d-9 thanks! But what occurred with the.tree niche? Why did these creatures move to the ground?

Edited December 8, 2013 by gray wolf

[gray wolf]

And how do we know this occurred?  Fossil record?

[Guest]

And how do we know this occurred?  Fossil record?

 

 

The Fossil Record Is Indeed Interesting

 

And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen; Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.

 

And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples. And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out. Luke 19:37-40

 

For It Appears All Fossils Were Almost Insistently Frozen In Time

 

By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. Hebrews 11:7

 

So Even The Softest Of Creatures Were Preserved

 

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, Romans 1:20-22

 

Kinda Makes One Wonder How

 

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 2 Corinthians 4:3-5

 

"Science" Missed

 

And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark. Genesis 7:23

 

It

 

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 2 Peter 3:5-6

 

You Think?

 

For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. Colossians 2:8

 

Love, Joe

[Guest HisG]

Are you somewhat bummed out at the thought of the beginnings of life according to evolution?

 

Not particularly.

That's fascinating.

[Guest HisG]

4. On to the evolution of this metamorphic trait. In the animal kingdom you have incomplete and complete metamorphosis. Caterpillars undergo complete metamorphosis, and it is believed to be derived from incomplete metamorphosis. Incomplete metamorphosis is seen in insects like crickets and cockroaches, where the young look similar to the adults but without certain adult features like wings. The young are called "nymphs" and go through a series of molts which turn the nymphs into adults. But before the nymphs were nymphs they were "pronymphs", depending on the species this pronymph stage is over before the egg hatches or the insect can remain in the stage for up to several days after hatching from its egg before molting into a true nymph. Pronymphs are soft-bodied, worm-like, and have non-fully developed nervous systems, all similar to caterpillars and other insects that undergo complete metamorphosis. It is thought that larva like caterpillars are virtually in a prolonged state of being a pronymph. The genes and hormones responsible for the incomplete and complete metamorphosis are similar, and you can see hormone similarities if you align the pronymph stage to the larva stage and the nymph stage to the pupa stage. The big evolutionary advantage to complete metamorphosis is that the young and adults require different resources (e.g. caterpillars eat leaves while butterflies eat nectar). This means that the young and old are not competing for the same resources which allows any given place to support more butterflies/caterpillars than it would otherwise, and the more of a species you can have the more likely it is that that species will survive.

Hi D-9,

This is really fascinating. Although it seems unbelievable, I guess I can certain envision the evolution of an incomplete metamorphosing animal into a complete metamorphosing animal, especially if, as you say the genes are quite similar.

But how does mutation and natural selection explain the step of going from a non-metamorphosing animal to the incomplete metamorphosing animal?

I'm thinking that you'd need to add quite a bit of information to the animal's genome to do this. At the very least you'd need the information to not only specify what changes need to occur, but where they should occur, and also when.

It wouldn't make sense for an insect to develop antennae inside its belly, and it would make sense to have antennae before it has the software to interpret the signals coming from the antennae, etc.

Then I'm also wondering if biologists have identified a plausible lineage? Have they found fossilised precursors of metamorphosing animals?

The reason I'm asking this is because I wonder if it's at all possible to identify such precursors as the adult and the juvenile animals would have different characteristics, they're most likely to be classified as different families instead of being seen as a juvenile and adult versions of the same species, not so?

That was a good post Luftwaffle but I don't think it had a reasonable response to it.

[Guest timmyboy]

This is a very interesting topic and have enjoyed following it. My thoughts on this is surely metamorphosis is such a intricate process that how on earth did these extraordinary creatures come into being, if not designed by an intelligence beyond our world? The stages involved are impossible to have come about by chance in my opinion.    

[Guest]

This is a very interesting topic and have enjoyed following it. My thoughts on this is surely metamorphosis is such a intricate process that how on earth did these extraordinary creatures come into being, if not designed by an intelligence beyond our world? The stages involved are impossible to have come about by chance in my opinion.    

 

 

Amen~!

 

And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. Genesis 1:11-12

 

Designs In Creation

 

And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. Genesis 1:24-25

 

Are Directly Observed By Folk

 

But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee: Job 12:7

 

And Directly Measured By The Same Folk

 

Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee. Job 12:8

 

And The Working's Of These Designs Are Tested By The Same Folk

 

Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this? Job 12:9

 

Yet Some Of These Same (Western Mostly) Folk Are Afraid To Stand And Confess

 

I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. Psalms 139:14

 

These Designs So Cleverly Modeled By Their Mathematics

 

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Psalms 19:1

 

Even Exist

 

Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. Psalms 19:2

 

Now How Silly Is That

 

There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Psalms 19:3