Does Free Will Exist in the Bible?

[other one]

I think I see apples and oranges being discussed here.   Two distinct and different meanings for the term "free will".   People are simply talking past each other.

[Quantrill]

other one

 

I don't think you see anything.

 

Quantrill

[LuftWaffle]

Luftwaffle

 

You didn't answer the question.  Explain why you need 'free' added to 'will', when all you are doing is describing the 'will'?   What makes 'free' necessary?

 

I am saying Christ's sacrifice was always the will of God.  God did not have to react.  It was always His plan.

 

Why do you keep asking me questions but refuse to answer mine?

 

Answer mine first, then I will finish answring yours.

 

Quantrill

 

I believe I have explained that I'm not adding the word free to the term will, but that I'm simply using a standard term called "free will" which refers to the nature of man's capacity to make decisions.

 

From the Stanford encyclopedia of philosophy: “Free Will” is a philosophical term of art for a particular sort of capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives."

From the Internet Encyclopedia of philosophy: "Minimally, to say that an agent has free will is to say that the agent has the capacity to choose his or her course of action."

 

Would you agree that it sounds a lot like "Free will is the capacity to make a choice within a framework of possibilities" which is how I've defined it in this discussion?

 

Honesty, I'm not in the least interested in the etymology of the word "free will" but rather in it's meaning and it's implications. As such I am no more capable of explaining why free will is called "free will", than I am in explaining why the word "grape" was prefixed to the word "fruit" to describe a certain variety of citrus.

 

Would you agree that the topic under discussion here is theological/philosophical in nature and not a discussion on etymology(the origin of words)?

[enoob57]

God 'IS' The Will...

 

If that is true, then by whose will do I believe in- and argue for the existence of free will, God's will or my own?

 

In other words, are my posts about free will my own or are they really determined by God?

Before God created anything He 'IS' all eternity in Personage of Father, Son and Spirit...

The order of creation is angels, corporeal existence, man. Somewhere in that creative process

Lucifer the highest and most glorious gifted angel fell from his purposed design of God by error

of thought and action birthing lie or false existence... We have also partaken of this falsehood.

By this false way we have died to the freedom that 'IS' in God and have entered into bondage and

limitations of the lie born from the created imagination of rebellion from the highest created

being-> thinking with beginning he could be beginning-less... the smallest of minds could recognize

the error of this imagination for it is structured without substance of rule or order!

As permitted by God in His Word the corporeal descriptive of the Father with the Son on His right

hand as the universe of corporeal exist being stretched out as a curtain. As we do not see our own

boundaries in the heavens yet so they are by His Word and in that confine of heaven and earth sin was

began and will be transfered into a place called the lake of fire upon which God Himself will

swallow up and be eternally kept only by His Wrath... but we the children of God by The Sacrifice

of The Son in a unified Will of boundless perfection into eternities of all Things Are Possible

In His Will in The We of Eternity (=) Him in us and We in Him... The will which with we have chosen is

death kept in the confines of corporeal exist but the grace of God Presented in The Son by The Will

of The Father 'IS' new birth with a will set free by His Word in the vehicle called faith that will

transport us to Him in [s(S)pirit] as one [b(B)eing] acceptable by the covering of His Son's Life Blood.

The image that We Are of God will be restored in fullness when sin is completely put away forever

and our minds only as His Mind and His ours... This 'IS' the perfect freewill that 'IS' of God!

Now given to the dead things as choice to be born again into a living hope... Election and freewill

are this unity not resolvable by present minds but in the New Heaven, New Earth, New Body, of The New

Birth eternally permeated as One With The Holy Spirit it will become the simplest of reason!

Love, Steven

[Guest]

If  the fall was not part of God's plan , then why did He put Satan there in the garden?  And why place the command on the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil?  Did Satan sneak up on God?

 

~

 

Although

 

Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. James 1:2-4 (ESV)

 

God Knew

 

knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.

 

He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. 1 Peter 1:18-21 (ESV)

 

Man Gets ALL The Credit

 

But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 2 Corinthians 11:3 (ESV)

[other one]

other one

 

I don't think you see anything.

 

Quantrill

I think I'll just not comment...

[enoob57]

OO that was a comment

It's like ncn ignore of me in last

Love, Steven

[EnochBethany]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is either free will or some form of determinism. So, if you deny that the will is free, then you're left with determinism.

 

If man is unable to do the right thing then it's impossible for man to be guilty of anything. Any deterministic system of the will removes the responsibility from man and places it upon the agent doing the determining.

 

We see this in our legal systems everyday. If a harmful action is outside someone's control, then we call it an accident. For instance if someone drives a car and the tire burst and the car skids into a pedestrian hurting that person, then it's called an accident, because it couldn't have been avoided. If on the other hand the accident could have been avoided, then the driver is culpable.

 

 

If you can't control the things that come your way causing you to make decisions you don't want to, or have to, or want to, then how is it your will is free?  It isn't.  Only God has free will.  We have a will. Again, I am not saying we are not responsible for our actions and decisons.  But our will is not free.

 

Quantrill

 

You're redefining free will to mean maximal autonomy. Such a definition is incorrect.

No standard definition of free will requires that one be able to control every situation.

 

If you wish to continue using a different definition of free will, that's fine, I'll simply replace your word "free will" with "maximal autonomy" and nod in agreement.

But keep in mind that the topic under discussion isn't whether human being have maximal autonomy, but rather whether humans have free will as per the standard philosophical definition of libertarian free will.

 

Determinism vs Free Will

How about a scale, 0-10 with

0= You can't do nothing.

1= You cain't hardly do nothing.

10 = You stand over the Key to Time & dictate omnipotently?

5 = you are impelled by opposing forces to the point that you don't know what to do; so you are stuck forever in a feedback cycle, pecking around the equilibrium.

 

Or you might have an influence scale with the Zeitgeist blowing on you at different intensities.

0 = no Zeitgeist, no persuaders.

10 = completely controlled by the politically correct.

 

 

Hi Enoch,

 

Notice how your summary of free will vs determinism still deals with what one can do, in other words abilities, and not the real issue which is human will?

I'm not sure how to better explain this other than simply stating that no definition of free will involve what actions one is capable of performing.

 

I didn't catch the zeitgeist statement, would you mind clarifying?

 

Isn't exerting will doing summut?

You speak of free will.

I refer to the fact that men are influenced.

The Zeitgeist is the set of beliefs dominant at a given time.

These pressure us to think a certain way.

 

Okay, I'm not sure what your point is though, but influences by definition do not determine, but rather "influence".

 

Free will doesn't mean devoid of influence either. Sometimes influences can be very strong, but influences aren't causes. If a young man is influenced by a desire to have sex to go out and rape somebody, such a person is still held accountable, because even though there may be an influence, he ought to have done otherwise. Ought implies can. One cannot be held accountable for a moral duty that one isn't able to keep. So if a person is caused to do something such that they couldn't have done otherwise, then they are not held accountable. Where there is influence though, this doesn't remove accountability.

 

In terms of whether exerting will is an action. It depends what you mean by exert.

 

I am confident that if you sign a contract with a gun to your head,

then you tell the judge in court that you did not sign it of free will, the judge is not going to tell you that you don't use the term "will" correctly.

 

 

I am also confident that a judge doesn't define free will to mean "the ability to do anything".

 

Well, Luftwaffle, thanks for an interesting conversation.  To pursue this further would necessitate checking the meaning of Biblical terms in Hebrew & Greek, instead of just asserting what they mean.  But I am not inclined to put in the effort right now.  And of course we don't want to argue over words, in the negative sense.  Hey, I love that screen name, Luftwaffle -- great name!

[enoob57]

Well, Luftwaffle, thanks for an interesting conversation.  To pursue this further would necessitate checking the meaning of Biblical terms in Hebrew & Greek, instead of just asserting what they mean.  But I am not inclined to put in the effort right now.  And of course we don't want to argue over words, in the negative sense.  Hey, I love that screen name, Luftwaffle -- great name!

Yeah I luftwaffles too  ^{lovewaffles....}

[Quantrill]

Luftwaffle

 

Concerning your post #92:

 

Well, if you don't know what you mean by 'free will' then why do you oppose what I am saying.   Again, what is there in you use of the term 'free will' that is not involved in just the ' will ' of man.

 

What does the term 'free' signify?   If it doesn't signify anything, then drop it.,   And just use the term will.  But if you insist on using it, perhaps you should have a knowledge of why you do.  Or do you do what you do becaue everyone else does?

 

Your definition of 'free will' is nothing but a definition of 'will'. 

 

And, you didn't answer the questions.  If the fall was not part of God's plan, why did He put Satan in the garden?   And why place the command on the Tree of knowledge of good and evil?  Did Satan sneek up on God?

 

Quantrill