On Interpretation of Scripture

[HumbleThinker]

 Evolutionists do give evidence, but it is not convincing to me.  I see it as the Bible gives us a 100 percent certainty the Genesis account of creation must be taken literal, and creation itself at best gives us a 30 percent chance evolution took place.  Just looking at creation alone, I would say there is at least a 70  percent chance evolution is not true.  If I didn't believe in God, the creation would show me that each creature began as it is today.  Without a missing link, there is no evidence in the creation for evolution.

 

 

"Evolutionists do give evidence, but it is not convincing to me." Please keep repeating that to any creationists you may know, for many will loudly proclaim that there is no evidence for evolution. They seem to think that they cannot claim the latter without denying the former. And even though I'm sure you are talking about relative certainties just to juxtapose your position against my own, I am happy to understand your position in this manner even if I disagree with the likelihoods you have attributed to the two claims. We can talk about the idea of a missing link in another thread, which I think we may have started at one point but can't remember, but I am glad to understand your position.

[HumbleThinker]

HumbleThinker, you seem to not believe that the bible is the word of God. DO you see scripture as mans word? If so, how can you be sure you are saved and not following a lie?

Good question that I will answer in two parts. First, I do not feel the need to make the Bible the Word of God for it to be all the things people, particularly enoob57, are rightly claiming it to be. It is what it is, and no matter what it is, it is still the primary way of knowing about God, His spiritual works, and His spiritual purposes for us. It contains the words of God spoken directly to others and through His prophets and is profitable in many respects as it claims to be. Being the Word of God or not doesn't change this. 

 

Second, I have for a long time found no need for 100% certainty, even in faith, and have found it fraught with problems. What I have, though, is 100% confidence that God exists, that we have a relationship, and that Christ is my Lord and Savior. Confidence is what is important because that, not certainty, is what leads to perseverance and a deeper relationship with God. I found that it leads me away from the still waters, while God was leading me towards them. So yes, this entire relationship of mine can be a huge case of self-delusion and taking an ancient religious text a little too seriously, but that's a risk I'm willing to take and I am 100% confident that I am not mistaken on this point.

[HumbleThinker]

The Bible is the Word of God… There are both internal and external evidences for this. Let’s first discuss the internal evidences for the Bible being God’s Word:

The first internal evidence is the unity of the Bible. The 66 books of the Bible were written over a period of around 1500 years, had over 40 authors with various backgrounds, written on three continents, in three different languages, yet remains one unified book from the beginning to the end.

I believe this, but why does this require the Bible to be the Word of God.

 

The second internal evidence is the prophecies within the Bible. The Bible contains hundreds of prophecies relating to Israel, specific cities, and mankind in general. There are over 300 prophecies in the OT specifically detailed regarding Messiah – all of which were fulfilled by Jesus Christ. The only explanation is these prophecies were divine in their origin.

I believe this too, but what do the prophecies being divine in origin have to do with the Bible being the Word of God. Perhaps we are using the term differently? More on that below I'm sure.

 

A third internal evidence that the Bible is God’s Word is the authority and power found within it. This is a little more subjective than the first two internal evidences but is still a testimony to the divine nature of origin of Scripture – the Bible. People have been transformed by the power of God’s Word. Deadbeats and derelicts have been transformed by it, criminals have been reformed by it, drug addicts have been cured by it, hate has turned to love because of it, and sinners have been rebuked by it. The power of the Holy Spirit is evident through it in transforming lives because it is truly God’s Word – the Holy Scriptures.

And the Bible has transformed me as well. It contains the Gospel, the power of God unto salvation. But that doesn't mean that the Bible is the Gospel. Similarly, the Bible contains the words of God, but that doesn't make it the Word of God as these are two distinct concepts. Similarly, World War Z the book is not a zombie apocalypse or the testimonies of various people about the zombie apocalypse, but it does contain those things.

 

Fourth internal evidence that the Bible is God’s Word because of it’s scientific accuracy. In Job we’re told God “hangs the earth on nothing” (Job 26:7).  The author of Job could only have known that the Earth hung in space by God’s revelation of said fact… Particularly before the invention of astronomy and space travel. It was revealed to Isaiah even that the earth was of circular shape as Isaiah declared “It is he who sits above the circle of the earth…” (Isaiah 40:22).

Because it could take up an entire thread, I'd rather not comment on this. When I get back, I'll make another thread on the scientific accuracy of the Bible. But as with the others, if the Bible is scientifically accurate, what does this have to do with it being the Word of God or not?

 

Fifth internal evidence that the Bible is God’s Word because the Bible DOES attest to itself being Scripture that is breathed by God… Scripture points to salvation through Jesus Christ.

2 Tim. 3:15-17

¹⁵ and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. ¹⁶ All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, ¹⁷ that the man of Godmay be complete, equipped for every good work.

We can attest to this without calling the Bible the Word of God. It is indeed profitable, but, for instance, it was not there in the beginning with God and it certainly is not God. The only thing physical the Word ever became was Christ when it became flesh. It didn't become ink and paper.

Sixth internal evidence that the Bible is God’s Word lasting influence the Bible has as specified in God’s Word itself. The Bible which is God’s Word has always generated a response. Either to embrace the God of the universe or reject it. Early Roman emperors such as Diocletian, communist dictators, modern day agnostics, or even the “new” atheists have all tried to diminish the importance of the Bible. Men have scorned it, laughed at it, burned it, ridiculed it, and even made laws against it. But the Word of God is true and has survived throughout the ages. It is just as applicable today as it was yesterday and will be tomorrow. This is the Word the Lord will remain forever. The Bible is still the most widely published book in the world. This is the Good News preached to all who would listen.

1 Peter 1:25

…but the word of the Lord remains forever.”

And this word is the good news that was preached to you.

So three follow-up questions HumbleThinker...

What are your thoughts on the above?

Why are you speaking against the Bible being God's Word?

If the Bible is not God's Word as you are claiming then what is it?

God bless,

GE

I don't see not calling the Bible the Word of God as diminishing its importance or influence. I consider it as spiritually containing the Word of God in the same sense that the communion bread and wine are spiritually the body and blood of Christ, and I consider it as physically containing a written record of the words of God. When I hear others, and even myself, say that the Bible is the Word of God, it sounds like the phrase "Word of God" is being used as a placeholder for the litany of things people correctly and incorrectly believe about the Bible, which can be summed up in the general claim that it is authoritative. The problem I see with that if it is an accurate depiction is that the phrase "Word of God" already has a distinct meaning of its own, so using it as a placeholder would be inadvertently (or perhaps intentionally) defining the Bible in ways that it clearly does not meet. Thanks for the reply and hope for further discussion.

Edited December 15, 2013 by HumbleThinker

[Guest Butero]

In regard to evidence, yes, evolutionists have evidence, but I see it like this.  Lets suppose I am a prosecuting attorney, and I am trying to build a case against someone to get a conviction.  I have little to work with.  I take what I can get.  I build a case on flimsy circumstantial evidence, and anything I can dream up, because it is my job to get a conviction.  What I present is technically evidence, but it is extremely flimsy.  That is how I see evolutionists.  They don't have anything that comes close to proving evolution, but they want to keep pushing it as true.  Like that prosecutor I described, they take anything they can to build a case.  The evidence is extremely flimsy, but it does convince those who already lean towards a belief in evolution. 

[Guest]

Again, this says the Bible is the word of God where? You still are saying "because of X, the Bible must therefore be God's Word."

 

 

Because Of X

 

Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Proverbs 30:5-6

 

The Bible

 

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: Revelation 22:18

 

Must

 

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. Revelation 22:18-20

 

Be

 

Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. Mark 13:31

 

Beloved, What Do You Use?

 

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17

 

~

 

Many Will Deny The Words Of God

But God Will Stand By Them

 

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Isaiah 55:11

 

~

 

For Your Information Beloved

 

The Bible  contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers.

 

Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions immutable.

 

Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy.

 

It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you.

 

It is the traveler's map, the pilgrim's staff, the pilot's compass, the soldier's sword, and the Christian's charter.

 

Here Paradise is restored, Heaven opened, and the gates of hell disclosed.

 

Christ is its grand subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end.

 

It should fill the memory, rule the heart and guide the feet.

 

Read it slowly, frequently and prayerfully.

 

It is a mine of wealth, a Paradise of glory, and a river of pleasure.

 

It is given to you in life, will be open in the judgment, and be remembered forever.

 

It involves the highest responsibility, rewards the greatest labor, and condemns all who trifle with its holy precepts.

 

From The Front Of My Gideon New Testament

[Guest]

 

 

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that it is God's Word. It is you who are saying "because of X, the Bible must therefore be God's Word." But again, the Bible does not justify this; only the musings of men's minds do.

 

~

 

The

 

For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. John 3:34

 

Musings

 

He hath said, which heard the words of God, and knew the knowledge of the most High, which saw the vision of the Almighty, falling into a trance, but having his eyes open: I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth. Numbers 24:16-17

 

Of The Son

 

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Matthew 5:18

 

Of God

 

And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. Luke 4:4

 

See?

 

Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. Psalms 119:11

 

Again, this says the Bible is the word of God where? You still are saying "because of X, the Bible must therefore be God's Word."

 

 

Well Beloved

 

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Hebrews 4:12

 

Of Course

 

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

 

It Does

 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

 

~

 

I Pray It All Adds Up For You

 

“If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. John 12:47-48 (NIV)

 

In The End

 

Love, Joe

[GoldenEagle]

 

The second internal evidence is the prophecies within the Bible. The Bible contains hundreds of prophecies relating to Israel, specific cities, and mankind in general. There are over 300 prophecies in the OT specifically detailed regarding Messiah – all of which were fulfilled by Jesus Christ. The only explanation is these prophecies were divine in their origin.

 

I believe this too, but what do the prophecies being divine in origin have to do with the Bible being the Word of God. Perhaps we are using the term differently? More on that below I'm sure.

 

 

When you say "The Bible is not the Word of God." What do you mean? That the Bible is not literally God speaking to people? That the Bible was not inspired by the Holy Spirit?

When i say the Bible is the Word of God I mean it is the inspired, inerrant, infallible words of God through various authors to humanity. It is how God reveals Himself.

[GoldenEagle]

 

A third internal evidence that the Bible is God’s Word is the authority and power found within it. This is a little more subjective than the first two internal evidences but is still a testimony to the divine nature of origin of Scripture – the Bible. People have been transformed by the power of God’s Word. Deadbeats and derelicts have been transformed by it, criminals have been reformed by it, drug addicts have been cured by it, hate has turned to love because of it, and sinners have been rebuked by it. The power of the Holy Spirit is evident through it in transforming lives because it is truly God’s Word – the Holy Scriptures.

And the Bible has transformed me as well. It contains the Gospel, the power of God unto salvation. But that doesn't mean that the Bible is the Gospel. Similarly, the Bible contains the words of God, but that doesn't make it the Word of God as these are two distinct concepts. Similarly, World War Z the book is not a zombie apocalypse or the testimonies of various people about the zombie apocalypse, but it does contain those things.

 

I'm uncertain what you mean by this in red. Gospel literally means "a thing that is absolutely true" and "the teaching or revelation of Christ." So by saying "It contains the Gospel, the power of God unto salvation. But that doesn't mean that the Bible is the Gospel." do you mean that...

A) the Bible is not absolutely true?

B) that the Bible doesn't teach and reveal Jesus Christ?

C) that there are other pieces of literature that reveal the truth besides the Bible?

 

Further, what is the difference to you between saying "the Bible is the Word of God" verses saying "the Bible contains the words of God"?

[GoldenEagle]

 

Fourth internal evidence that the Bible is God’s Word because of it’s scientific accuracy. In Job we’re told God “hangs the earth on nothing” (Job 26:7).  The author of Job could only have known that the Earth hung in space by God’s revelation of said fact… Particularly before the invention of astronomy and space travel. It was revealed to Isaiah even that the earth was of circular shape as Isaiah declared “It is he who sits above the circle of the earth…” (Isaiah 40:22).

Because it could take up an entire thread, I'd rather not comment on this. When I get back, I'll make another thread on the scientific accuracy of the Bible. But as with the others, if the Bible is scientifically accurate, what does this have to do with it being the Word of God or not?

 

I would agree that this could take up an entire thread itself. I have started a separate thread on the subject... It can be found here:

[OneLight]

HumbleThinker, you seem to not believe that the bible is the word of God. DO you see scripture as mans word? If so, how can you be sure you are saved and not following a lie?

Good question that I will answer in two parts. First, I do not feel the need to make the Bible the Word of God for it to be all the things people, particularly enoob57, are rightly claiming it to be. It is what it is, and no matter what it is, it is still the primary way of knowing about God, His spiritual works, and His spiritual purposes for us. It contains the words of God spoken directly to others and through His prophets and is profitable in many respects as it claims to be. Being the Word of God or not doesn't change this.

I see. You do not accept it as if God Himself wrote it, which we know He did not, but moved men to write it by the Holy Spirit. Do you see it as "second hand information"?  

 

Second, I have for a long time found no need for 100% certainty, even in faith, and have found it fraught with problems. What I have, though, is 100% confidence that God exists, that we have a relationship, and that Christ is my Lord and Savior. Confidence is what is important because that, not certainty, is what leads to perseverance and a deeper relationship with God. I found that it leads me away from the still waters, while God was leading me towards them. So yes, this entire relationship of mine can be a huge case of self-delusion and taking an ancient religious text a little too seriously, but that's a risk I'm willing to take and I am 100% confident that I am not mistaken on this point.

Even Satan knows God is real. That is a very dangerous place to be in, not knowing if you are saved, just taking a chance. You need to make scripture personal to your walk in Him and not depend so much on your own understanding ... Proverbs 3:5-6