creation of the universe?

[KosmoLeo]

I always took it to mean the universe, since to me it's a given that God is the supreme creator of the entire universe and everything in it.

[Spock]

Genesis 1:1.God created the heavens and the earth.That would be the universe.Why does man seek to eliminate God from having had any role in creation of the universe?.Man hates God and does not want to be subject to God's law,or held accountable for his actions.

Romans 1

No, that is not what is being proposed.   What is proposed is that the age of the universe may be independent from the age of the earth.  God may have made the universe ahead of the earth/solar system.    This would allow for a young earth, but also for the fact that we have starlight that is millions and millions years old.   What if God created the universe ahead of the earth.  God created the universe to house the earth, and then created the earth to house us.

 

Genesis 1 is, in context about the creation of the earth, not the creation of the universe.   One thing to understand is that Bible speaks in phenomenological language.  In other words it is written from the perspective of an observer describing what He sees.  Genesis 1 is like that.  It is written from the vantage point of an observer who is standing on the earth and watching what is happening around him.  The stars first become visible on the fourth day and the earth's creation was synchronized with the rest of the universe so that starlight from stars millions of light years away would arrive at the earth on day four of the creation week.

 

This hypothesis, and it is just a hypothesis, allows for a young earth but for the starlight to be much older.  The problelm for creationists is that we have quantifiable evidence of stars billions of light years from earth who light we only now see by aid of Hubble. The closest star after our sun is 4.5 billion  light years from earth and so it is problematic for creationists to say it was created at the same time the earth was created because we know how fast light travels and if stars we can see are billions of light years from earth and we could not see their light after only six to ten thousand years, so a possibility is that these stars were created before the earth, and then visible to the observer on the fourth day.

Interesting post here Shiloh. Two things:

1. I think you meant to say the nearest star to earth after the sun is 4.5 light year away, not 4.5 billion light years away. Remember a light year is about 6 trillion miles. So alpha centauri is about 28 trillion miles away. It's light takes 4.5 years to get to earth. When we look up to see alpha centauri, we see light from 2009.

2. How old do you think the universe is?

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

Genesis 1:1.God created the heavens and the earth.That would be the universe.Why does man seek to eliminate God from having had any role in creation of the universe?.Man hates God and does not want to be subject to God's law,or held accountable for his actions.

Romans 1

No, that is not what is being proposed.   What is proposed is that the age of the universe may be independent from the age of the earth.  God may have made the universe ahead of the earth/solar system.    This would allow for a young earth, but also for the fact that we have starlight that is millions and millions years old.   What if God created the universe ahead of the earth.  God created the universe to house the earth, and then created the earth to house us.

 

Genesis 1 is, in context about the creation of the earth, not the creation of the universe.   One thing to understand is that Bible speaks in phenomenological language.  In other words it is written from the perspective of an observer describing what He sees.  Genesis 1 is like that.  It is written from the vantage point of an observer who is standing on the earth and watching what is happening around him.  The stars first become visible on the fourth day and the earth's creation was synchronized with the rest of the universe so that starlight from stars millions of light years away would arrive at the earth on day four of the creation week.

 

This hypothesis, and it is just a hypothesis, allows for a young earth but for the starlight to be much older.  The problelm for creationists is that we have quantifiable evidence of stars billions of light years from earth who light we only now see by aid of Hubble. The closest star after our sun is 4.5 billion  light years from earth and so it is problematic for creationists to say it was created at the same time the earth was created because we know how fast light travels and if stars we can see are billions of light years from earth and we could not see their light after only six to ten thousand years, so a possibility is that these stars were created before the earth, and then visible to the observer on the fourth day.

Interesting post here Shiloh. Two things:

1. I think you meant to say the nearest star to earth after the sun is 4.5 light year away, not 4.5 billion light years away. Remember a light year is about 6 trillion miles. So alpha centauri is about 28 trillion miles away. It's light takes 4.5 years to get to earth. When we look up to see alpha centauri, we see light from 2009.

2. How old do you think the universe is?

 

Yes, that is what I meant.  Thanks for the correction.   I am not hanging my hat on the theory, to be clear.  I am smply presenting a recent theory offered by creationists. Just throwing it against the wall see if it sticks.

 

I am not convinced of it, to be sure.   I am arguing to see if I can defend it biblically without compromising the Word of God in the process. 

[Spock]

Genesis 1:1.God created the heavens and the earth.That would be the universe.Why does man seek to eliminate God from having had any role in creation of the universe?.Man hates God and does not want to be subject to God's law,or held accountable for his actions.Romans 1

No, that is not what is being proposed.   What is proposed is that the age of the universe may be independent from the age of the earth.  God may have made the universe ahead of the earth/solar system.    This would allow for a young earth, but also for the fact that we have starlight that is millions and millions years old.   What if God created the universe ahead of the earth.  God created the universe to house the earth, and then created the earth to house us.

 

Genesis 1 is, in context about the creation of the earth, not the creation of the universe.   One thing to understand is that Bible speaks in phenomenological language.  In other words it is written from the perspective of an observer describing what He sees.  Genesis 1 is like that.  It is written from the vantage point of an observer who is standing on the earth and watching what is happening around him.  The stars first become visible on the fourth day and the earth's creation was synchronized with the rest of the universe so that starlight from stars millions of light years away would arrive at the earth on day four of the creation week.

 

This hypothesis, and it is just a hypothesis, allows for a young earth but for the starlight to be much older.  The problelm for creationists is that we have quantifiable evidence of stars billions of light years from earth who light we only now see by aid of Hubble. The closest star after our sun is 4.5 billion  light years from earth and so it is problematic for creationists to say it was created at the same time the earth was created because we know how fast light travels and if stars we can see are billions of light years from earth and we could not see their light after only six to ten thousand years, so a possibility is that these stars were created before the earth, and then visible to the observer on the fourth day.

Interesting post here Shiloh. Two things:

1. I think you meant to say the nearest star to earth after the sun is 4.5 light year away, not 4.5 billion light years away. Remember a light year is about 6 trillion miles. So alpha centauri is about 28 trillion miles away. It's light takes 4.5 years to get to earth. When we look up to see alpha centauri, we see light from 2009.

2. How old do you think the universe is?

Yes, that is what I meant.  Thanks for the correction.   I am not hanging my hat on the theory, to be clear.  I am smply presenting a recent theory offered by creationists. Just throwing it against the wall see if it sticks.

 

I am not convinced of it, to be sure.   I am arguing to see if I can defend it biblically without compromising the Word of God in the process.

So, just to be clear here, you are not sure how old you believe the UNIVERSE is.

It may be 15 billion years, but you are not sure at this point.

Is this a correct statement that shows your thinking today 1/12/14?

[Guest shiloh357]

 

So, just to be clear here, you are not sure how old you believe the UNIVERSE is.

It may be 15 billion years, but you are not sure at this point.

Is this a correct statement that shows your thinking today 1/12/14?

 

I did not say that. I don't believe the universe is 15 billion years old just as I don't believe the earth is 4.5 billion years old.  I don't trust the ability of science to offer up any date.   I believe the universe to be much younger than 15 billion years.   15 billion years is an assumption, not a fact.

[Spock]

So, just to be clear here, you are not sure how old you believe the UNIVERSE is.

It may be 15 billion years, but you are not sure at this point.

Is this a correct statement that shows your thinking today 1/12/14?

I did not say that. I don't believe the universe is 15 billion years old just as I don't believe the earth is 4.5 billion years old.  I don't trust the ability of science to offer up any date.   I believe the universe to be much younger than 15 billion years.   15 billion years is an assumption, not a fact.

I'm curious here. You do not have an answer for how old you think the universe is. You haven't said in thousands, millions, or billions of years.

But you did say you do not believe it about 15 billion years old. Why did you eliminate that number when you clearly don't know?

[Montana Marv]

Go back to basics

 

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.   So they both were created in the beginning, the age is therefore the same.  Gen 1:2 - Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep... v3 - and God said let there be light.

 

There is a flow here, in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and the earth was formless and empty, and God said let there be light.

 

Ps 102:25 - In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands

 

Col 1:16 - For by Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, weather thrones or powers or rulers or authorities, all things were created by Him and for Him.

 

A question one needs to ask.  Why would the Godhead create the heavens and the earth and then wait millions or billions of years to have the 7 days of creation.

 

When reading Gen 1 take out all the paragraphs, and make one long paragraph.  Take out the verse numbering and read as one long verse.

 

Punctuation is what is making the gap theory for some.  Take out the punctuation and there is no gap.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

So, just to be clear here, you are not sure how old you believe the UNIVERSE is.

It may be 15 billion years, but you are not sure at this point.

Is this a correct statement that shows your thinking today 1/12/14?

I did not say that. I don't believe the universe is 15 billion years old just as I don't believe the earth is 4.5 billion years old.  I don't trust the ability of science to offer up any date.   I believe the universe to be much younger than 15 billion years.   15 billion years is an assumption, not a fact.

I'm curious here. You do not have an answer for how old you think the universe is. You haven't said in thousands, millions, or billions of years.

But you did say you do not believe it about 15 billion years old. Why did you eliminate that number when you clearly don't know?

 

Based on what I read in the Bible  the universe is most likely the same age as the earth, about 6,000-10,000 years old.   I can't give a precise answer, but that is what I say based on the biblical account.

[JohnD]

One of the many curiosities about the way God did things is why the Law first and then Grace? It was necessary for reasons numbering in the millions I suppose... which on this side of the cross makes sense to humanity, but before was a matter of faith or simply accepting what is.

 

The Genesis account can in many surprising ways rule out the many suppositional ways people have invented in their fertile little minds as to how all things came into being. But with only an aside mention of the stars... the Genesis account focuses on Earth and heaven (sky). Keep in mind, the ancient people of earth would not have understood what a universe was.

 

When you think of it...

 

where would YOU begin to tell a race of humans that had chosen to distrust the Lord (by eating the forbidden fruit)? 

 

I have pondered this myself and come to the conclusion (in this and in many other realizations) I cannot improve upon God or the way God does things. No one can. In fact it sounds absurd that it even occurred to me... but we foolish humans tend to overestimate ourselves.... 

 

It reminds me of the scientists who had a confab with God saying "our technological advances in science have made it so we can create life." 

 

God says... "Okay. Show me what you got."

 

"Okay first we take dirt---" the scientist says...

 

But God interrupts, "Wait a minute! Get your own dirt!"

 

LOL

 

The Genesis account must be tempered with the account of the overall Bible.

 

To the OP... tell them there is more information given in scripture about the creation account than Genesis 1 or Genesis 2.

 

John 1:1-3 (NASB95)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

 

Nothing  in creation exists that was not created by him in the beginning.

 

Which includes:

 

Colossians 1:13-16 (NASB95)
13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

 

And God the Word (Jesus preincarnate) did it all by himself alone...

 

Isaiah 44:24 (NASB95)
24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, “I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone,

 

Now he was in the presence of the Father and of the Holy Spirit...

 

1 John 1:1-2 (NASB95)
1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life—
2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us—

 

Genesis 1:1-2 (NASB95)
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

 

But God the Word acted alone in creation in the beginning.

 

In the Isaiah 44:24 passage he states that he is YHVH (the LORD) our redeemer. The Father is not the redeemer. He is the one to whom the redemption price is paid. The Holy Spirit is not the redeemer. He is the testifier of the truth. But the Creator of the creation took ultimate responsibility for the fall of the creation (though it was not his fault). Became a man, laid that life down as a ransom for humanity... and rose again the third day.

 

The Trinity is not such a hard concept once you allow the Bible to speak for itself.