Tough Questions

[UndecidedFrog]

Dear Sola Scriptora,

This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian.

Claiming you're not saying there is no God by saying you have no reason to believe in God because you've seen no evidence is simply not true.

Sorry, but one does not equate to the other, no matter how much you want it to. The truth is that I have never asserted that there is/are no god/s. On the contrary, I have asserted in other posts that it is impossible to know unless one knows the entire universe and beyond (if any).

What I have asserted was that I do not have any belief in any god/s. You are making that leap of faith equating one statement with the other. It is irrational to nonsensical to do that. Remember, they do have different meanings.

I reject your claims to logic and rationalism, when you consistently violate the rules of both to continue to pretend there is no evidence for God. It sounds to me like you don;t want the evidence.

You may reject anything your heart desires. You may find some comfort in that I too reject your claims to logic and rationalism as exposed above. I do not pretend there is no evidence, I have not yet been presented with any valid evidence that supports the existence of any deity. It would indeed be incredible how it can sound like I don't want the evidence when I have asked directly for it.

I rejected your thinly-veiled argument of incredulity. If you read my previous link to why arguments of incredulity are flawed, you would understand why. Here it is again, so that you may read it carefully to fully understand why arguments of incredulity are flawed:

(Removed link)

The Bible says: "The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it?" Do you agree with that?

I ask that because you ask me to present you a valid argument from incredulity. I did, and you didn't refute it or acknowledge it.

Apparently you do not even understand what is an argument of incredulity. What you have presented to me is not an argument of incredulity. If you are now wondering what is an argument of incredulity, I again suggest you refer to my link.

Nonetheless, you have asked me if I agree with your biblical statement. As it is written, I cannot agree with it since I know that hearts cannot be deceitful, for they do not think or act aside from pumping blood. Even allowing for metaphorical license, I would still have to disagree, for it asserts that people (not hearts) are deceitful and wicked. I know that not all people are such.

To compare a discussion about the origin of all things, and the subject matter being God Himself, the infinite Creator, who, if He does exist, must be all-wise, all-good and completely HOLY... to take such a serious subject of a Being who is acknowledged in every culture and in all history. To compare discussing His existence to believing in pink unicorns is simply incredible to me! How can you even make that kind of equivocation and expect to be taken seriously??? It shows where your heart is at.

I am sorry you were offended by my analogy to the mythical invisible pink unicorn in my garage. I used the analogy to point out the fallacy you were presenting to me as evidence to support the existence of your god. That fallacy was the argument of incredulity....i.e. (Allow me to paraphrase) 'Wow look how complex everything is, it must have been created, and it must have been created by my god.' Of course none of these things must have been done. And even if they were, there is no evidence that they point to your god over others or even an invisible pink unicorn that lives in my garage. For none of these entities can be proven to exist (including the pink unicorn).

It was my feeble attempt to inject some humour into our discussion. Apparently all I succeeded in accomplishing was to upset you. I apologize.

Do you consider a child who steals a cookie as wicked and evil and malignant as Adolf Hitler and his actions in exterminating Jews and leading the whole world into a war that killed millions more??? Do you?

No I do not consider them equivalent crimes. Now please tell me how is this evidence for the existence of your god?

If you say yes, you are either warped, or wicked

This is yet another of your assertion with implied ad hominem if I happen to disagree. It doesn't provide me with any evidence that your god exists.

I am not hostile, simply consistent.

Somehow you will forgive me if I don't believe you.

Sometimes we need a kick in the pants when we are being foolish and obstinant. Your welcome

Thank you for providing me with an example of fine christian behaviour. I shall log this discussion with you in my total experiences with christians.

Regards,

UndecidedFrog

Edited December 29, 2004 by Dr. Luke

[Botz]

Frog said...

Thank you for providing me with an example of fine christian behaviour. I shall log this discussion with you in my total experiences with christians.

Yikes...I bet that goes in the cupboard with the sharp-stick and security blanket.

The thing is Christians are not perfect in spite of what you might have heard...and sometimes we can get....

argumentative,irrational,rude,disrespectful,smug,unhelpful,aloof,unreal,sarcasti

and many more I am sure...I just hope we have the grace to recognize it when we are and to say sorry and to seek to change.

Mind you obstinate irrational rationality can try the patience of a Saint.

[Sola Scriptora]

Oh please! No one is hot under the collar here. There are far more trying things in life than having a simple little discussion with an atheist on a forum. I speak very directly. I am assuredly blunt. That has nothing to do with anger or being tried! If you want a trial, come and partake in my line of work for a week, and you'll experience the real deal! There is no emotion coming from me. There is a desire that you would be saved one day though. Now if my directness causes you to tried to hide under a subterfuge of excuses of "ad hominem", so be it. It will not work on Judgement Day.

As for me saying that answering my question in the affirmative would make one either warped or wicked, then let me ask you---if someone said that the terrorist acts of Al Qaida on 9-11, which killed over three thousand innocent people was a good thing, what would you say? Would you say such a person is warped, wicked, or something else?

[Sola Scriptora]

Frog:

I was getting ready to leave for work, and it was bothering me that you may actually believe I am mad at you or something. I am not. I often do not re-read my posts, or even use spell-check!(Obviously). I am not a great typist. Upon looking back at some of them, I see the edge. That's why writers often need editors to help the literary quality and make sure the style and tone of the writings actually reflect the author's heart. I can see how quickly writings answers and then posting them can lead to misunderstandings. I apologize too you for that.

As far as deceit, I believe all humans engage in it at varying levels, even Christians can fall prey to it! If I accuse someone of engaging in deceit, that does not mean I believe they are evil, per se. What I mean is that they are refusing to give up their presuppositions, and are arguing in a circle. Now that surely isn't good, its called deceit, and none of us should ever engage in it, but I better explain myslef lest it appear I am demonizing you. I am not. I clearly believe you are wrong, but I am not mad. I'll be praying for you while I drive and work.

God bless you.

p.s.

I said earlier I have seen God miraculously heal people. Isn't that "evidence"?

[Guest edgar serrano]

My dear friend,

The fact that you say you belive - you do not believe, logical - illogical. Whatever the subject matter. It is a belief, a conviction, a principle, an idea.

In any case you have decided to process it. In essence, you do have a belief. You want to debate it. Fine. However, I am not looking to debate, change or disprove what it is you do not belive in. My intentions, are merely to show you that you do have a belief, therefore you are capable, if you wanted to, to believe and trust that God is here in the midst of us.

You also say you want proof. Tell you what. The fact that you keep searching for answers shows me that God loves you. Furthermore, your replies to every single one of these comments prove to me that God is good.

Lastly, may God open your heart and bless you my dear friend.

Regards,

Edgar

P.S. Our good and faithful brother in Christ Billy Graham said:

"You see, faith isn't something we inherit from our parents; we each must make our own decision for Christ. Yes, they can point us in the right direction, but we must personally decide whether or not we will follow it. In other words, you made your own decision to turn your back on God, and you alone are responsible for it.

I can't help but wonder, however, if you may be beginning to have doubts about your choice. Frankly, you should have doubts, because the road you're on will never bring you the happiness and inner peace you seek. Nor does it lead to eternal life. The Bible warns, "There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death" (Proverbs 16:25).

Don't let embarrassment or fear or anything else keep you from Christ. No, you may not love God right now

[UndecidedFrog]

Dear edgar serrano,

This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian.

Thanks for your response. However, it does not shed any more meaning than your previous post where you assert the same thing. You equate lack of belief with belief. I do not.

I don't think I will be able to change your mind, and your arguments so far have not changed mine. You claim I WANT to debate it. I do not.

Your intention (as you claim) is to show me that I have a belief. Yes, I certainly have many beliefs. However, none of those beliefs pertain to any deity, no matter how much you assert. Please allow me to know myself more than you claim to know me.

Thanks,

UndecidedFrog

[Work in Progress]

I have not yet been presented with any valid evidence that supports the existence of any deity.

Frog, I'm afraid there is no evidence. Other than that which you know in your heart if He has spoken to you. I realize that, to an unbeliever such as yourself, that sounds like fairy tale nonsense and platitudes but, I'm sorry, that's all I can offer you. I can't point to God. I can, however, point to His creation all around us. I can tell you of His amazing work in my life, and His "speaking" to me, but it would mean nothing unless His Holy Spirit also touched your life. And, if that ever happens, you will indeed "know" it is real, without a doubt.

I would still have to disagree, for it asserts that people (not hearts) are deceitful and wicked. I know that not all people are such.

You are obviously an intelligent and discerning person, Frog, as you immediately see that this verse is actually talking about people, not an organ that pumps blood. You made me smile with that.

No, not all people are "wicked". "Total Depravity" (the state of the human heart) doesn't mean that people are necessarily as bad as they could be, but that every part of them is corrupt - physical, spiritual, emotional. Do you know anyone who is 100% healthy in all of these areas? Of course not. Physically, we are all going to die, as our bodies are not perfect and will wither. Spiritually, we are dead, unless God raises us up. We are unable to reach for our Savior - we don't even desire to, as is in your case. (Not meant to be offensive. ) Emotionally - oh man, we won't even go there! We all have our "baggage" and our inclinations to treat others badly at times, think nasty thoughts, sometimes act on them, "get even", have a "bad day" where we are mean just for the sake of being mean and feeling better (for that moment, anyhow) , sometimes do things that just are plain not nice, etc.

[UndecidedFrog]

Dear WIP,

This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian.

Frog, I'm afraid there is no evidence. Other than that which you know in your heart if He has spoken to you. I realize that, to an unbeliever such as yourself, that sounds like fairy tale nonsense and platitudes but, I'm sorry, that's all I can offer you.

Thank you for your honesty. It is a breath of fresh air.

No, not all people are "wicked". "Total Depravity" (the state of the human heart) doesn't mean that people are necessarily as bad as they could be, but that every part of them is corrupt - physical, spiritual, emotional. Do you know anyone who is 100% healthy in all of these areas? Of course not. Physically, we are all going to die, as our bodies are not perfect and will wither. Spiritually, we are dead, unless God raises us up. We are unable to reach for our Savior - we don't even desire to, as is in your case. (Not meant to be offensive.  ) Emotionally - oh man, we won't even go there!  We all have our "baggage" and our inclinations to treat others badly at times, think nasty thoughts, sometimes act on them, "get even", have a "bad day" where we are mean just for the sake of being mean and feeling better (for that moment, anyhow) , sometimes do things that just are plain not nice, etc.

Interesting thoughts. I agree that not all people are wicked or deceitful. I have stated as much before. But as to the corrupt concept, I would need to learn more of your use of the word. I do not believe all people are corrupt in the meaning I have in my mind.

I agree that we all will die at some point in time. I would even ask you to consider that most of us also pay taxes before then. I do not know about this spiritual thing, for I have never been spiritual, nor have I seen any spirits. Have you?

I agree also that we all have emotions, and the baggage that goes with it. I agree that sometimes this makes us act poorly. However, I have made a conscious effort not to fall in that trap, and swallow anger, need for revenge, being mean to someone so that I can feel better, etc. These are indeed weaknesses that we can all be more conscious of and try to improve upon.

I understand what you are implying.

Regards,

UndecidedFrog

[Guest edgar serrano]

Interesting this things you say.

"You equate lack of belief with belief. I do not". Then you go on to say "Your intention (as you claim) is to show me that I have a belief. Yes, I certainly have many beliefs". Noticed you said Yes. Okay, do believe or don't believe, whatever it is you have a belief. And you have accepted this fact. But to this now you say "However, none of those beliefs pertain to any deity, no matter how much you assert". Did you know that the word assert means, to declare, to affirm, to confirm... Anyway...Your last comment "Please allow me to know myself more than you claim to know me".

My dear friend, I do not know your heart, God does.

In any case have it your way, not my way or any other believer' way, or God's way, but your way. Belief, disbelief, God or no God in your heart. At this very moment, you are still being called by Him. I just hope you don't realize this when it is to late.

My prayers are always with you.

Edgar

[nebula]

Hey, Frog -

Have you heard of the book Life of Pi by Yann Martel?

From what I have heard from those who read it, it might be something of fascination for you.