Jump to content

Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Nonbeliever
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  16
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  2,063
  • Content Per Day:  0.27
  • Reputation:   15
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  08/02/2004
  • Status:  Offline

Posted (edited)

Dear Sola Scriptora,

This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian.

Claiming you're not saying there is no God by saying you have no reason to believe in God because you've seen no evidence is simply not true.

Sorry, but one does not equate to the other, no matter how much you want it to. The truth is that I have never asserted that there is/are no god/s. On the contrary, I have asserted in other posts that it is impossible to know unless one knows the entire universe and beyond (if any).

What I have asserted was that I do not have any belief in any god/s. You are making that leap of faith equating one statement with the other. It is irrational to nonsensical to do that. Remember, they do have different meanings.

I reject your claims to logic and rationalism, when you consistently violate the rules of both to continue to pretend there is no evidence for God. It sounds to me like you don;t want the evidence.

You may reject anything your heart desires. You may find some comfort in that I too reject your claims to logic and rationalism as exposed above. I do not pretend there is no evidence, I have not yet been presented with any valid evidence that supports the existence of any deity. It would indeed be incredible how it can sound like I don't want the evidence when I have asked directly for it.

I rejected your thinly-veiled argument of incredulity. If you read my previous link to why arguments of incredulity are flawed, you would understand why. Here it is again, so that you may read it carefully to fully understand why arguments of incredulity are flawed:

(Removed link)

The Bible says: "The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it?" Do you agree with that?

I ask that because you ask me to present you a valid argument from incredulity. I did, and you didn't refute it or acknowledge it.

Apparently you do not even understand what is an argument of incredulity. What you have presented to me is not an argument of incredulity. If you are now wondering what is an argument of incredulity, I again suggest you refer to my link.

Nonetheless, you have asked me if I agree with your biblical statement. As it is written, I cannot agree with it since I know that hearts cannot be deceitful, for they do not think or act aside from pumping blood. Even allowing for metaphorical license, I would still have to disagree, for it asserts that people (not hearts) are deceitful and wicked. I know that not all people are such.

To compare a discussion about the origin of all things, and the subject matter being God Himself, the infinite Creator, who, if He does exist, must be all-wise, all-good and completely HOLY... to take such a serious subject of a Being who is acknowledged in every culture and in all history. To compare discussing His existence to believing in pink unicorns is simply incredible to me! How can you even make that kind of equivocation and expect to be taken seriously??? It shows where your heart is at.

I am sorry you were offended by my analogy to the mythical invisible pink unicorn in my garage. I used the analogy to point out the fallacy you were presenting to me as evidence to support the existence of your god. That fallacy was the argument of incredulity....i.e. (Allow me to paraphrase) 'Wow look how complex everything is, it must have been created, and it must have been created by my god.' Of course none of these things must have been done. And even if they were, there is no evidence that they point to your god over others or even an invisible pink unicorn that lives in my garage. For none of these entities can be proven to exist (including the pink unicorn).

It was my feeble attempt to inject some humour into our discussion. Apparently all I succeeded in accomplishing was to upset you. I apologize.

Do you consider a child who steals a cookie as wicked and evil and malignant as Adolf Hitler and his actions in exterminating Jews and leading the whole world into a war that killed millions more??? Do you?

No I do not consider them equivalent crimes. Now please tell me how is this evidence for the existence of your god?

If you say yes, you are either warped, or wicked

This is yet another of your assertion with implied ad hominem if I happen to disagree. It doesn't provide me with any evidence that your god exists.

I am not hostile, simply consistent.

Somehow you will forgive me if I don't believe you.

Sometimes we need a kick in the pants when we are being foolish and obstinant. Your welcome

Thank you for providing me with an example of fine christian behaviour. I shall log this discussion with you in my total experiences with christians.

Regards,

UndecidedFrog

Edited by Dr. Luke

  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  76
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  4,492
  • Content Per Day:  0.58
  • Reputation:   191
  • Days Won:  18
  • Joined:  03/29/2004
  • Status:  Offline

Posted

Frog said...

Thank you for providing me with an example of fine christian behaviour. I shall log this discussion with you in my total experiences with christians.

Yikes...I bet that goes in the cupboard with the sharp-stick and security blanket. :emot-hug:

The thing is Christians are not perfect in spite of what you might have heard...and sometimes we can get....

argumentative,irrational,rude,disrespectful,smug,unhelpful,aloof,unreal,sarcasti

and many more I am sure...I just hope we have the grace to recognize it when we are and to say sorry and to seek to change.

Mind you obstinate irrational rationality can try the patience of a Saint. :emot-hug:


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  0
  • Topic Count:  3
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  155
  • Content Per Day:  0.02
  • Reputation:   0
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  10/23/2004
  • Status:  Offline

Posted

Oh please! No one is hot under the collar here. There are far more trying things in life than having a simple little discussion with an atheist on a forum. I speak very directly. I am assuredly blunt. That has nothing to do with anger or being tried! If you want a trial, come and partake in my line of work for a week, and you'll experience the real deal! There is no emotion coming from me. There is a desire that you would be saved one day though. Now if my directness causes you to tried to hide under a subterfuge of excuses of "ad hominem", so be it. It will not work on Judgement Day.

As for me saying that answering my question in the affirmative would make one either warped or wicked, then let me ask you---if someone said that the terrorist acts of Al Qaida on 9-11, which killed over three thousand innocent people was a good thing, what would you say? Would you say such a person is warped, wicked, or something else?


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  0
  • Topic Count:  3
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  155
  • Content Per Day:  0.02
  • Reputation:   0
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  10/23/2004
  • Status:  Offline

Posted

Frog:

I was getting ready to leave for work, and it was bothering me that you may actually believe I am mad at you or something. I am not. I often do not re-read my posts, or even use spell-check!(Obviously). I am not a great typist. Upon looking back at some of them, I see the edge. That's why writers often need editors to help the literary quality and make sure the style and tone of the writings actually reflect the author's heart. I can see how quickly writings answers and then posting them can lead to misunderstandings. I apologize too you for that.

As far as deceit, I believe all humans engage in it at varying levels, even Christians can fall prey to it! If I accuse someone of engaging in deceit, that does not mean I believe they are evil, per se. What I mean is that they are refusing to give up their presuppositions, and are arguing in a circle. Now that surely isn't good, its called deceit, and none of us should ever engage in it, but I better explain myslef lest it appear I am demonizing you. I am not. I clearly believe you are wrong, but I am not mad. I'll be praying for you while I drive and work.

God bless you.

p.s.

I said earlier I have seen God miraculously heal people. Isn't that "evidence"?

Guest edgar serrano
Posted

My dear friend,

The fact that you say you belive - you do not believe, logical - illogical. Whatever the subject matter. It is a belief, a conviction, a principle, an idea.

In any case you have decided to process it. In essence, you do have a belief. You want to debate it. Fine. However, I am not looking to debate, change or disprove what it is you do not belive in. My intentions, are merely to show you that you do have a belief, therefore you are capable, if you wanted to, to believe and trust that God is here in the midst of us.

You also say you want proof. Tell you what. The fact that you keep searching for answers shows me that God loves you. Furthermore, your replies to every single one of these comments prove to me that God is good.

Lastly, may God open your heart and bless you my dear friend.

Regards,

Edgar

P.S. Our good and faithful brother in Christ Billy Graham said:

"You see, faith isn't something we inherit from our parents; we each must make our own decision for Christ. Yes, they can point us in the right direction, but we must personally decide whether or not we will follow it. In other words, you made your own decision to turn your back on God, and you alone are responsible for it.

I can't help but wonder, however, if you may be beginning to have doubts about your choice. Frankly, you should have doubts, because the road you're on will never bring you the happiness and inner peace you seek. Nor does it lead to eternal life. The Bible warns, "There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death" (Proverbs 16:25).

Don't let embarrassment or fear or anything else keep you from Christ. No, you may not love God right now


  • Group:  Nonbeliever
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  16
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  2,063
  • Content Per Day:  0.27
  • Reputation:   15
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  08/02/2004
  • Status:  Offline

Posted

Dear edgar serrano,

This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian.

Thanks for your response. However, it does not shed any more meaning than your previous post where you assert the same thing. You equate lack of belief with belief. I do not.

I don't think I will be able to change your mind, and your arguments so far have not changed mine. You claim I WANT to debate it. I do not.

Your intention (as you claim) is to show me that I have a belief. Yes, I certainly have many beliefs. However, none of those beliefs pertain to any deity, no matter how much you assert. Please allow me to know myself more than you claim to know me.

Thanks,

UndecidedFrog


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  123
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  3,111
  • Content Per Day:  0.37
  • Reputation:   35
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  08/29/2002
  • Status:  Offline

Posted
I have not yet been presented with any valid evidence that supports the existence of any deity.

Frog, I'm afraid there is no evidence. Other than that which you know in your heart if He has spoken to you. I realize that, to an unbeliever such as yourself, that sounds like fairy tale nonsense and platitudes but, I'm sorry, that's all I can offer you. I can't point to God. I can, however, point to His creation all around us. I can tell you of His amazing work in my life, and His "speaking" to me, but it would mean nothing unless His Holy Spirit also touched your life. And, if that ever happens, you will indeed "know" it is real, without a doubt.

I would still have to disagree, for it asserts that people (not hearts) are deceitful and wicked. I know that not all people are such.

You are obviously an intelligent and discerning person, Frog, as you immediately see that this verse is actually talking about people, not an organ that pumps blood. :24: You made me smile with that. :wub:

No, not all people are "wicked". "Total Depravity" (the state of the human heart) doesn't mean that people are necessarily as bad as they could be, but that every part of them is corrupt - physical, spiritual, emotional. Do you know anyone who is 100% healthy in all of these areas? Of course not. Physically, we are all going to die, as our bodies are not perfect and will wither. Spiritually, we are dead, unless God raises us up. We are unable to reach for our Savior - we don't even desire to, as is in your case. (Not meant to be offensive. :24: ) Emotionally - oh man, we won't even go there! :P We all have our "baggage" and our inclinations to treat others badly at times, think nasty thoughts, sometimes act on them, "get even", have a "bad day" where we are mean just for the sake of being mean and feeling better (for that moment, anyhow) , sometimes do things that just are plain not nice, etc.

;)


  • Group:  Nonbeliever
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  16
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  2,063
  • Content Per Day:  0.27
  • Reputation:   15
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  08/02/2004
  • Status:  Offline

Posted

Dear WIP,

This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian.

Frog, I'm afraid there is no evidence. Other than that which you know in your heart if He has spoken to you. I realize that, to an unbeliever such as yourself, that sounds like fairy tale nonsense and platitudes but, I'm sorry, that's all I can offer you.

Thank you for your honesty. It is a breath of fresh air.

No, not all people are "wicked". "Total Depravity" (the state of the human heart) doesn't mean that people are necessarily as bad as they could be, but that every part of them is corrupt - physical, spiritual, emotional. Do you know anyone who is 100% healthy in all of these areas? Of course not. Physically, we are all going to die, as our bodies are not perfect and will wither. Spiritually, we are dead, unless God raises us up. We are unable to reach for our Savior - we don't even desire to, as is in your case. (Not meant to be offensive.  ) Emotionally - oh man, we won't even go there!  We all have our "baggage" and our inclinations to treat others badly at times, think nasty thoughts, sometimes act on them, "get even", have a "bad day" where we are mean just for the sake of being mean and feeling better (for that moment, anyhow) , sometimes do things that just are plain not nice, etc.

Interesting thoughts. I agree that not all people are wicked or deceitful. I have stated as much before. But as to the corrupt concept, I would need to learn more of your use of the word. I do not believe all people are corrupt in the meaning I have in my mind.

I agree that we all will die at some point in time. I would even ask you to consider that most of us also pay taxes before then. I do not know about this spiritual thing, for I have never been spiritual, nor have I seen any spirits. Have you?

I agree also that we all have emotions, and the baggage that goes with it. I agree that sometimes this makes us act poorly. However, I have made a conscious effort not to fall in that trap, and swallow anger, need for revenge, being mean to someone so that I can feel better, etc. These are indeed weaknesses that we can all be more conscious of and try to improve upon.

I understand what you are implying.

Regards,

UndecidedFrog

Guest edgar serrano
Posted

Interesting this things you say.

"You equate lack of belief with belief. I do not". Then you go on to say "Your intention (as you claim) is to show me that I have a belief. Yes, I certainly have many beliefs". Noticed you said Yes. Okay, do believe or don't believe, whatever it is you have a belief. And you have accepted this fact. But to this now you say "However, none of those beliefs pertain to any deity, no matter how much you assert". Did you know that the word assert means, to declare, to affirm, to confirm... Anyway...Your last comment "Please allow me to know myself more than you claim to know me".

My dear friend, I do not know your heart, God does.

In any case have it your way, not my way or any other believer' way, or God's way, but your way. Belief, disbelief, God or no God in your heart. At this very moment, you are still being called by Him. I just hope you don't realize this when it is to late.

My prayers are always with you.

Edgar


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  10
  • Topic Count:  5,869
  • Topics Per Day:  0.72
  • Content Count:  46,509
  • Content Per Day:  5.73
  • Reputation:   2,259
  • Days Won:  83
  • Joined:  03/22/2003
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  11/19/1970

Posted

Hey, Frog -

Have you heard of the book Life of Pi by Yann Martel?

From what I have heard from those who read it, it might be something of fascination for you.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Our picks

    • You are coming up higher in this season – above the assignments of character assassination and verbal arrows sent to manage you, contain you, and derail your purpose. Where you have had your dreams and sleep robbed, as well as your peace and clarity robbed – leaving you feeling foggy, confused, and heavy – God is, right now, bringing freedom back -- now you will clearly see the smoke and mirrors that were set to distract you and you will disengage.

      Right now God is declaring a "no access zone" around you, and your enemies will no longer have any entry point into your life. Oil is being poured over you to restore the years that the locust ate and give you back your passion. This is where you will feel a fresh roar begin to erupt from your inner being, and a call to leave the trenches behind and begin your odyssey in your Christ calling moving you to bear fruit that remains as you minister to and disciple others into their Christ identity.

      This is where you leave the trenches and scale the mountain to fight from a different place, from victory, from peace, and from rest. Now watch as God leads you up higher above all the noise, above all the chaos, and shows you where you have been seated all along with Him in heavenly places where you are UNTOUCHABLE. This is where you leave the soul fight, and the mind battle, and learn to fight differently.

      You will know how to live like an eagle and lead others to the same place of safety and protection that God led you to, which broke you out of the silent prison you were in. Put your war boots on and get ready to fight back! Refuse to lay down -- get out of bed and rebuke what is coming at you. Remember where you are seated and live from that place.

      Acts 1:8 - “But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses … to the end of the earth.”

       

      ALBERT FINCH MINISTRY
        • Thanks
        • This is Worthy
        • Thumbs Up
      • 3 replies
    • George Whitten, the visionary behind Worthy Ministries and Worthy News, explores the timing of the Simchat Torah War in Israel. Is this a water-breaking moment? Does the timing of the conflict on October 7 with Hamas signify something more significant on the horizon?

       



      This was a message delivered at Eitz Chaim Congregation in Dallas Texas on February 3, 2024.

      To sign up for our Worthy Brief -- https://worthybrief.com

      Be sure to keep up to date with world events from a Christian perspective by visiting Worthy News -- https://www.worthynews.com

      Visit our live blogging channel on Telegram -- https://t.me/worthywatch
      • 0 replies
    • Understanding the Enemy!

      I thought I write about the flip side of a topic, and how to recognize the attempts of the enemy to destroy lives and how you can walk in His victory!

      For the Apostle Paul taught us not to be ignorant of enemy's tactics and strategies.

      2 Corinthians 2:112  Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices. 

      So often, we can learn lessons by learning and playing "devil's" advocate.  When we read this passage,

      Mar 3:26  And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. 
      Mar 3:27  No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strongman; and then he will spoil his house. 

      Here we learn a lesson that in order to plunder one's house you must first BIND up the strongman.  While we realize in this particular passage this is referring to God binding up the strongman (Satan) and this is how Satan's house is plundered.  But if you carefully analyze the enemy -- you realize that he uses the same tactics on us!  Your house cannot be plundered -- unless you are first bound.   And then Satan can plunder your house!

      ... read more
        • Praise God!
        • Brilliant!
        • Loved it!
        • This is Worthy
        • Thumbs Up
      • 230 replies
    • Daniel: Pictures of the Resurrection, Part 3

      Shalom everyone,

      As we continue this study, I'll be focusing on Daniel and his picture of the resurrection and its connection with Yeshua (Jesus). 

      ... read more
        • Thumbs Up
      • 13 replies
    • Abraham and Issac: Pictures of the Resurrection, Part 2
      Shalom everyone,

      As we continue this series the next obvious sign of the resurrection in the Old Testament is the sign of Isaac and Abraham.

      Gen 22:1  After these things God tested Abraham and said to him, "Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am."
      Gen 22:2  He said, "Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you."

      So God "tests" Abraham and as a perfect picture of the coming sacrifice of God's only begotten Son (Yeshua - Jesus) God instructs Issac to go and sacrifice his son, Issac.  Where does he say to offer him?  On Moriah -- the exact location of the Temple Mount.

      ...read more
      • 20 replies
×
×
  • Create New...