Two Israels / Two Torahs / Two Covenants / Two Tabernacles

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

 

 

Understand.

 

I am not here to win a contest.

 

I just want the truth to be shown and unless you can disprove it with scripture, the scriptures I have shown must be received authoritatively (not at all because I believe it... but because it is in keeping with God's word).

I receive the Scriptures you presented.  I do not receive your faulty exegesis of them.

 

 

Sure you do.

 

If you believe (despite scriptures in Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians to the contrary) that there is a distinction between Jewish born believers In Jesus and Gentile born believers in Jesus.

 

No.  I believe there is no distinction in terms of access to God's grace which is what Paul is talking about in context.  The fact that in Christ there are neither Jew nor Greek doesn't mean that they lose their ethnic identity.   It simply means that everyone gets saved the same way, no distinctions or differences in that regard

 

Anyone can do what you are doing and just grab verses and passages and rip them from their literary context and string them together like lights on a Christmas tree and make them say whatever they want it to say.

 

 

Agreed.

 

But then you apply it to the spiritual aspect with your version of Romans 16:26 and Galatians 6:16...

 

Why?

 

The Bible doesn't say that when a person gets saved they are no longer Jews or Gentiles.   It is saying that God makes no distinction between them in terms of their need for Jesus.   I don't understand how clearer I can make it.

 

I am not spiritualizing anything.  I am simply stating that Paul recognizes Jewish believers as the remnant, or "the Israel of God."

[Qnts2]

 

 

You and others may not want to see it for what it is.

 

I get that.

 

But you have yet to disprove any of the scripture I cited with scripture.

 

You only offer opinion (so far). 

 

The Bible says we are grafted into the already existing Olive Tree. Romans 11:16-26 and calls it "all Israel." After the distinguishing of Roman 9:6 where Paul states that unbelieving Israel is not "all Israel."

 

Scripture and scripture.

 

Show me scripture that proves this wrong.

 

Please.

I am not trying to disprove Scripture!!!  I am simply stating that you are exegeting the Scriptures incorrectly.    Rom. 11:16-26 is not calling Jews and Gentiles "all Israel."

 

Sorry but you are allowing your theology to drive your interpretation. 

 

 

Nice. I have noticed that when people cannot disprove things they tend to accuse the other of doing what they are doing.

 

I have pointed to scripture after scripture.

 

You have not because apparently you cannot.

 

You only pooh pooh the interpretation of scriptural comparisons I have pointed out.

 

No, it is you are allowing your religion to steer your theology, my friend.

 

 

You have pointed to scripture after scripture but fail to realize these scriptures never say the Gentiles become spiritual Jews. In the time of the Apostles, and the Epistles, there were Jewish and Gentile believers. The Apostles are addressing issues for Jewish believers and Gentile believers. So, many times, they alternately talk to or about each group. Just because the Apostles are addressing or talking about Jewish believers, does not mean Gentiles have become Jews or even Spiritual Jews. According to prophesy, God was going to draw Gentiles to the Messiah. So, Gentiles, as Gentiles and remaining Gentiles when they become believers is a fulfillment of OT prophesy.     

[JohnD]

Then grab a few verses and prove them wrong.

[ayin jade]

I asked the mods to review this thread. Im seeing teaching (against the tos), Im seeing vast amounts of arrogance and pride being displayed and Im seeing judgmentalism towards those who disagree with your viewpoint. 

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Galatians 6:16 (NASB95)

16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

 

Should have also said "and the Gentiles of God."

 

Is that not the way you are interpreting this verse to mean just the Jewish believers?

"Israel" is NEVER spiritualized to refer to, or include Gentiles anywhere in the New Testament.   Paul includes the "Israel of God"  (Jewish believers) in his comments.   He already included the Gentiles and he also mentioned the Jewish believers who are the true "Israel of God."  

 

There is NO exegetical basis for claiming that "Israel of God" includes Gentiles.

 

 

Then all the passages in Romans Galatians Ephesians about there being no distinction between Jew and Gentile are wrong?

 

Romans 11:16-26 speaks of grafted in Gentiles and the salvation of all ISRAEL.

 

Is this not to include grafted in Gentiles?

 

No, they are not wrong.    Those passages are simply saying that ethnic pedigree, gender and social status do not put a person at either an advantage or disadvantage where access to God's grace is concerned.  You are misreading those passages and are trying  to apply them to an issue they were not written to address. 

 

Your exegesis is sloppy.

 

 

A sloppy exegesis is better than a traditional eisegesis any day.

 

Sloppy exegesis is tell-tale sign of someone who is more interested in the agenda they are trying foist on other people than they are about the truth of Scripture.   Sloppy exegesis like yours is nothing to be proud of. 

 

 

 

Pride is nothing to be proud of.

 

God hates pride.

 

If anyone could have said he was proud of anyone or anything, the Father could have said he was of his Son and his Son's behavior, but he did not. He said he was pleased with him.

 

Proud / pride is not in my vocabulary except to describe the fool-heartiness of others.

 

I am not operating from pride,but from a commmitment to the truth and a sound exegesis of the Scriptures.   So far you have not refuted  one comment I have made. 

 

 

You are right. I have not. The Bible has refuted every one of your comments (which have contained no scripture so far)

 

I was working from the Scriptures YOU provided.  I don't pit the Bbile against itself.  I don't need to refute the Bible with the Bible which is what you are asking me to do.  I simply reject your poor interpretations of the Scriptures in that you keep trying make "Israel" apply to Gentiles when there is NOTHING in the NT that does so.

[JohnD]

 

 

 

You and others may not want to see it for what it is.

 

I get that.

 

But you have yet to disprove any of the scripture I cited with scripture.

 

You only offer opinion (so far). 

 

The Bible says we are grafted into the already existing Olive Tree. Romans 11:16-26 and calls it "all Israel." After the distinguishing of Roman 9:6 where Paul states that unbelieving Israel is not "all Israel."

 

Scripture and scripture.

 

Show me scripture that proves this wrong.

 

Please.

I am not trying to disprove Scripture!!!  I am simply stating that you are exegeting the Scriptures incorrectly.    Rom. 11:16-26 is not calling Jews and Gentiles "all Israel."

 

Sorry but you are allowing your theology to drive your interpretation. 

 

 

Nice. I have noticed that when people cannot disprove things they tend to accuse the other of doing what they are doing.

 

I have pointed to scripture after scripture.

 

You have not because apparently you cannot.

 

You only pooh pooh the interpretation of scriptural comparisons I have pointed out.

 

No, it is you are allowing your religion to steer your theology, my friend.

 

 

You have pointed to scripture after scripture but fail to realize these scriptures never say the Gentiles become spiritual Jews. In the time of the Apostles, and the Epistles, there were Jewish and Gentile believers. The Apostles are addressing issues for Jewish believers and Gentile believers. So, many times, they alternately talk to or about each group. Just because the Apostles are addressing or talking about Jewish believers, does not mean Gentiles have become Jews or even Spiritual Jews. According to prophesy, God was going to draw Gentiles to the Messiah. So, Gentiles, as Gentiles and remaining Gentiles when they become believers is a fulfillment of OT prophesy.     

 

 

Okay.

 

For example.

[JohnD]

I asked the mods to review this thread. Im seeing teaching (against the tos), Im seeing vast amounts of arrogance and pride being displayed and Im seeing judgmentalism towards those who disagree with your viewpoint. 

 

All I am saying is please refute this with scripture rather than opinion or tradition.

 

For that I am being judgmental?

 

Yes, please mods reviews all.

 

I welcome your imput.

[JohnD]

BTW

 

I am only trying to defend an exegetical conclusion to biblical texts.

 

The name calling (sloppy or whatever) was not my doing.

 

So yes indeed please review the thread.

[Guest shiloh357]

BTW

 

I am only trying to defend an exegetical conclusion to biblical texts.

 

The name calling (sloppy or whatever) was not my doing.

 

So yes indeed please review the thread.

You have not been called any names.  The exegesis IS sloppy.  That is not name calling it is an accurate assessment of the way you are mishandling the Scriptures.

[GoldenEagle]

This thread is closed for review due to multiple reported posts. It may or may not be re-opened.