Ananias's death and relevance for today?

[carlos123]

I think the point made by Yomo was a very good one.

The Church had been born into holiness...and in the establishing of the Church G-d was jealous of the purity of His Bride and did not want to see it sullied and to be ridiculed at such an important stage of development.

I'm not sure about that Botz. Does that mean that the converse of that is true? Namely that today God is NOT jealous of the purity of His Bride and no longer cares if it is sullied and ridiculed? Or that perhaps we are not in an important stage of development as a Chruch?

Is this not rather a time that calls for greater holiness than ever?

Carlos

[carlos123]

Peter did not call down death upon Annanias and Sapphira, he was simply stating a fact:

Granted that he was stating a fact Dad Earnie but I wonder if the Lord would have put Ananias and Sphirra to death without Peter's statements to that effect (at least in the case of Saphirra he told her she would die).

Would the 3000 have been saved at Pentecost without Peter's preaching?

Would Cornelious and his household have been saved without Peter preaching?

Would the church in Jerusalem have accepted the Gentiles without Paul sharing how the Lord had worked through him to see them saved?

I could go on but suffice it to say that God has seemingly bound Himself to work through the Church.

Matthew 16:19

I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

[Botz]

I'm not sure about that Botz. Does that mean that the converse of that is true? Namely that today God is NOT jealous of the purity of His Bride and no longer cares if it is sullied and ridiculed? Or that perhaps we are not in an important stage of development as a Chruch?

Is this not rather a time that calls for greater holiness than ever?

Carlos

Hi Carlos.

No I believe G-d has always been jealous of His people whether the Jews or the Church...but I see a pattern that seems to demonstrate a certain 'fear of G-d' that goes with the birthing of these things...it is like an endorsing and an owning of what is happening by G-d Himself.

I am sure many other people have lied to the Holy Spirit even in the pages of the Bible and after what happened to Ananias and Sapphira but they were not judged in so dramatic a fashion. We know that God is full of mercy and compassion...slow to anger and patient with us...and it is just as well.

I think that in these times there is definately a greater call to holiness and I believe we will see such events occuring as things hot up in the kingdom of G-d.

2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not purposing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[carlos123]

No I believe G-d has always been jealous of His people whether the Jews or the Church...but I see a pattern that seems to demonstrate a certain 'fear of G-d' that goes with the birthing of these things...it is like an endorsing and an owning of what is happening by G-d Himself.

I am sure many other people have lied to the Holy Spirit even in the pages of the Bible and after what happened to Ananias and Sapphira but they were not judged in so dramatic a fashion.  We know that God is full of mercy and compassion...slow to anger and patient with us...and it is just as well.

I understand what you are saying Botz. I just don't agree with it .

Can you give specific Biblical examples of this pattern that you see?. Where birthing of these things leads to a greater degree of "fear of G-d" resulting in deaths like what happened to Ananias and Sapphira? I don't see that pattern Botz. At least not from God's side. If anything, various men have failed to uphold God and to act in faith in line with His wishes at various times which may indeed shown a pattern of inconsistentcy. But it's not because God's character and His desires have changed. It's because men change and act differently with respect to who God is at various times.

Can you give examples of other people who have lied to the Holy Spirit in the pages of the Bible and who were not judged in so dramatic a fashion? I don't know of any but there may be.

Even if you are right that at certain times the fear of God leads to more judgement than at other times the question remains ..... is that because God has chosen to work differently at different times under similar circumstances or is that because the people through whom He was working did not act in line with who God was as consistently as they should have?

If I was a father with children and I judged one child in a way that might seem severe and did not do the same with the other kids for similar offenses would not my one child have grounds for saying that I was grossly unfair? And would not I be a poor example of constitent faithfulness and lack of impartiality? Yet if I left an older child in charge of the other one's and they in turn did not act in line with my wishes would not the fault be that of the older child and not a reflection of me as Father?

If we think today that we are not at a birthing time in our history such that God is not seen to want to act the same as He did in the New Testament with Ananias and Saphirra, will that not result in God not doing what He did and may want to do for no other reason than because members of His Church will not believe Him to act through them to do the same?

Has not God bound Himself to work within the confines of what we, as a Church, believe Him for in regard to things like this?

Carlos

[Botz]

Carlos...

I understand what you are saying Botz. I just don't agree with it  .  Can you give specific Biblical examples of this pattern that you see?...

Thats ok...it was merely a personal observation and not something I would try to defend in any way. I thought I had given 3 examples that made me consider this pattern...Moses,Elisha,and Acts.

Can you give examples of other people who have lied to the Holy Spirit in the pages of the Bible and who were not judged in so dramatic a fashion? I don't know of any but there may be.

Nope...but that was not my intention I was entering the misty realm of biblical speculation.

Even if you are right that at certain times the fear of God leads to more judgement than at other times the question remains ..... is that because God has chosen to work differently at different times under similar circumstances or is that because the people through whom He was working did not act in line with who God was as consistently as they should have?

Perhaps the old evangelical addage that G-d never changes but His ways change has a degree of truth in it.

If I was a father with children and I judged one child in a way that might seem severe and did not do the same with the other kids for similar offenses would not my one child have grounds for saying that I was grossly unfair? And would not I be a poor example of constitent faithfulness and lack of impartiality? Yet if I left an older child in charge of the other one's and they in turn did not act in line with my wishes would not the fault be that of the older child and not a reflection of me as Father?

I do not think of hypothetical situations like this in such a black and white fashion...I know as a father that what works with one child may not necessarily be expedient with another child and a different approach may be needed....but then there are certain rules/judgments/decisions that by their very nature must show utter consistancy so as not undermine the one who makes them.

If we think today that we are not at a birthing time in our history such that God is not seen to want to act the same as He did in the New Testament with Ananias and Saphirra, will that not result in God not doing what He did and may want to do for no other reason than because members of His Church will not believe Him to act through them to do the same?

You could say that about many aspects of the Christian walk particularly here in the West...for instance how come so few people get healed...or so few prayers seem to get answered in as dramatic a fashion as in the New Covenant...there are quite a few ponderables that is for sure.

Has not God bound Himself to work within the confines of what we, as a Church, believe Him for in regard to things like this?

This is quite a profound observation and I would say yes...but that He can and does Sovereignly intervene because He defines the perimeter of His own promises and they are totally consistant with His nature and character...that is our security.

"....Yes, let God be found true, but every man a liar. As it is written, "That you might be justified in your words, and might prevail when you come into judgment."

[carlos123]

Carlos...

I understand what you are saying Botz. I just don't agree with it  .  Can you give specific Biblical examples of this pattern that you see?...

Thats ok...it was merely a personal observation and not something I would try to defend in any way. I thought I had given 3 examples that made me consider this pattern...Moses,Elisha,and Acts.

Sorry about that Boltz. I hadn't thought about what you had shared as examples of this pattern but now that I am reminded of what you shared I can see why you might think as you do, though I still disagree with you . Still there may be something to what you are saying and I will have think about it some.

If we think today that we are not at a birthing time in our history such that God is not seen to want to act the same as He did in the New Testament with Ananias and Saphirra, will that not result in God not doing what He did and may want to do for no other reason than because members of His Church will not believe Him to act through them to do the same?

You could say that about many aspects of the Christian walk particularly here in the West...for instance how come so few people get healed...or so few prayers seem to get answered in as dramatic a fashion as in the New Covenant...there are quite a few ponderables that is for sure.

Ahhh that is a subject dear to my heart Boltz. Why these things don't seem to happen much today that is. Let me if I might give an illustration as to why I think the problem is with us and not with God. At one time in my life a number of years ago when I was walking very close to the Lord, it seemed that He impressed upon my heart the truth that I or anyone one of us, could walk as Peter and Paul and others did in the New Testament. As I began to ponder this I came to realize that I could, like they did, walk out into the parking lot of the apartment complex I was living in, and coming up to the first wheelchair bound invalid, say to them "In the name of Jesus stand and walk!"

But I didn't do that! Why not? One reason. I chickened out. I was too afraid to have my faith in Christ seem foolish. So rather than risk looking like a total fool if God did not come through to do what I felt I could do, in HIis Name...in His place....I decided to remain as I have most often remained in my Christian walk. Adhering to certain truths about God but not willing to step out all the way and bank on the reality of God to do what Jesus did and what He taught His disciples to do in His place.

I was simply too afraid.

I think -that- is the main reason that we, especially in the West, fail to see God at work among us as He worked in the New Testament. I have on the other hand read of various accounts of modern churches in places like Cambodia that were like a modern verison of Acts.

With regard to lying to the Holy Spirit and seeing one's die as a result I think the majority of us would simply overlook the lie and let it go. Either out of ignorance or because of a mistaken beliief that God no longer is willing to work that way. Certainly I know of no Christian anywhere, whether among the sheep or among the "professional" classes such as pastors or doctors of divinity, that would, like Peter declare someone in sin and lying to the Holy Spirit and that they would die as a result. I know not one.

We simply don't have any Paul's and Peter's with their bold faith in God anymore it seems. Heck, most churches don't even discipline church members and kick them out, in love, for unrepentant sin anymore. Never mind a death risking confrontation with any lying to the Holy Spirit!

Carlos

[Botz]

Hey Carlos.

You mentioned...

Ahhh that is a subject dear to my heart Boltz. Why these things don't seem to happen much today that is. Let me if I might give an illustration as to why I think the problem is with us and not with God. At one time in my life a number of years ago when I was walking very close to the Lord, it seemed that He impressed upon my heart the truth that I or anyone one of us, could walk as Peter and Paul and others did in the New Testament. As I began to ponder this I came to realize that I could, like they did, walk out into the parking lot of the apartment complex I was living in, and coming up to the first wheelchair bound invalid, say to them "In the name of Jesus stand and walk!"

But I didn't do that! Why not? One reason. I chickened out. I was too afraid to have my faith in Christ seem foolish. So rather than risk looking like a total fool if God did not come through to do what I felt I could do, in HIis Name...in His place....I decided to remain as I have most often remained in my Christian walk. Adhering to certain truths about God but not willing to step out all the way and bank on the reality of God to do what Jesus did and what He taught His disciples to do in His place.  I was simply too afraid.

I expect many of us have had similar experiences...what I have come to realise is that the closer one gets to Jesus in fellowship (not relationship because in that we are secure...we are 'dear sons' ) the harder it seems to be content with what you once shared...this seems to be because the Holy Ghost constantly reveals more of G-d to you...and in doing so your personal inadequecies also get high-lighted...and the cost of dying daily begins to dawn on you...for most of us we are not prepared to embrace our destiny because the cost of dying is too high.

Surely many are called....but few are chosen.

Personally I have found the following verse so challenging because I relate it to seeking after G-d with ones whole heart...although the context is somewhat different...again this is just a personal observation and not a biblical exergesis.... We are called to be a joyful people...but I believe there is room for both at the same time...one of those spiritual paradoxes that we know to be true but often find hard to explain.

Ecclesiastes 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief; and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

[carlos123]

Hi Boltz,

I've been curious ever since I saw your responses Boltz, why do you abbreviate the word "God" to "G-d"?

Carlos

[Botz]

Hi Carlos...I get asked this from time to time.

I know a lot of Jewish people both Messianic and Orthodox...and some a bit of both..and I write a fair bit on websites that have an Orthodox audience etc...they prefer to not see the word written in its full form God as they believe they could be taking the name of the L-rd in vain...even though we are not talking about the tetragrammaton.

So for about 8 years now I have adopted it when I write...mainly because it is too confusing chopping and changing between the two forms...and out of respect for their sensitivity. It is no big deal and I expect you will find the occasional Jewish person that posts here doing the same.

I go to both a Messianic fellowship and a regular Christian Church and generally when I am with Jews I refer to Jesus as Yeshua or G-d as HaShem etc and even that can be a bit confusing sometimes...I prefer to use the word Messiah rather than Christ and my tendancy is to get familiar with a Jewish flavoured Bible and gradually break away from traditional Greek characterization...but it is a cultural thing and takes time and one needs to realise that it can obfuscate and cause unnecessary barriers and complications...so I feel my way a bit.

[Guest quasar]

Ananias and Sapphira fell down and gave up the ghost. Why? I am not real sure this is only my opinion.

First, they gave up the ghost , God did not kill them.

Secondly, consider the mentality they were coming out of.

In the old covenant, the consequence of sin was the curse of the law, and every good jew knew that when you violate the law, a curse would come upon you, you expected it, and knew you deserved it.

It is my opinion that they gave up the ghost willingly because they expected the curse to fall upon them, (old covenant thinking and believing) even though the new covenant was in effect(abundant life).

just food for thought

quasar