Izzel Posted January 31, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 514 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 62 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/01/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1989 Share Posted January 31, 2014 What time frame is this 12th chapter ? 2000 years ago ?orIs it all future ? If its all future who is the man child ?Who is the remnant that are born from her also sometime later ? (I can't seeing it being Mary other children) Good question, but I believe the time-frame is mentioned in verse 5 and 6And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days. Jesus is the man-child, after Jesus resurrection, Israel fled into the wilderness (into the nations). There Israel will find a place of protection for the 3.5 tribulation years during which the church will be persecuted. So it covers 2000 plus years. The remnant are us believers who are the offspring of Israel (adopted sons of Abraham)Romans 4:16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. It is not 1260 days What isn't 1260 days? Are you referring to Rev 12 which mentions 1260 days and saying it shouldn't be interpreted as literal days? If so why not literal days? It is 1260 years A Time = 1 year Times = 2 years Dividing of Times = 1/2 year. 360 X 3yr =1080 180 or 1/2 year = 1260 Forty two months = 42 X 30 = 1260Two hundred and threescore = 1260This same power depicted as controlling religious affairs for 1260 years, will again arise. It's deadly wound healed. Together with the "power of the dragon" and "force of the second beast" the world will be brought to a crises. (See Rev. 13) Therefore it is imperative that we understand this issue. Izzel I agree with the 1,260 years so you are seeing then that Rev. 11, 12 and 13 most is already history. Also in your belief can you figure out the 3 1/2 days the two witnesses died and the one hour in Rev.17 ? So, here is a complete listing of the passages that deal with the same 1260 year time period of persecution note the 3 1/2 days is the same 1260 days etc 3 1/2 Times - Rev 12:14, Dan 7:25, Dan 12:7 1260 days - Rev 11:3, Rev 12:6 42 Months - Rev 11:2, Rev 13:5 Are you saying the two witnesses laid dead for 1,260 years(3 1/2 days) that it is also the church in Rev.12 going into the wilderness for 1,260 years. They are the same ? The church or the woman are The TWO GROUPS of people who are the ONLY TWO WITNESSES in all the earth who stand for the only true and wise God ARE number 1, the true believers in Christ Jesus the Son of God, otherwise know as Christians or formally known as the WILD OLIVE TREE; and number 2, the other witness standing before the one true God is ISRAEL, which is the NATURAL OLIVE TREE.So you see we have TWO different GROUPS of people who stand for the God of the earth, and it is these TWO GROUPS who are the TWO WITNESSES spoke of in the book of Revelation.We can see these TWO GROUPS, the Jews, who believe in Almighty God the Father, and the Christians, those who believe in Jesus, the Son of God as their savior all through the book of Revelation as well as the rest of the word of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted January 31, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,991 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,689 Content Per Day: 11.81 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted January 31, 2014 The woman is Israel. The Church has been raptured and is not present. Yes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Izzel Posted January 31, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 514 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 62 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/01/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1989 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Revelation 11 King James Version (KJV) 11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. Numbers 14:34 King James Version (KJV) 34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise. This chapter from verse 1 to 13 deals almost exclusively with the "Two Witnesses," which we shall take up first. It will be seen from verse 3 that these two witnesses were to prophesy a thousand two hundred and three score days clothed in sackcloth. Sackcloth represents humility and prayer, entire dependence on heaven for survival, and suggestive of a period of danger, during which time they were to prophesy. This is a period of 1260 years as one day stands for a year in both Daniel and the Revelation. Notice also in verse 2 that the court without the temple was given to the Gentiles, and the Holy City was to be trodden down for this same period of 42 months, 1260 days or years. The Bible month anciently was 30 days, as previously proven, in dealing with the Book of Daniel. In Genesis we are told that the flood lasted 150 days, while in another scripture it says the flood lasted five months, showing us that the Bible month was a 30 day month. This 1,260 year period is also set forth in Daniel, and repeatedly in following chapters of Revelation, representing the period when the Beast power ruled, and when the church and not literal israel was driven into the wilderness, as given in the next chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DRS81 Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 This 1,260 year period is also set forth in Daniel, and repeatedly in following chapters of Revelation, representing the period when the Beast power ruled, and when the church and not literal israel was driven into the wilderness, as given in the next chapter. What church are you referring too? The church or the woman are The TWO GROUPS of people who are the ONLY TWO WITNESSES in all the earth who stand for the only true and wise God ARE number 1, the true believers in Christ Jesus the Son of God, otherwise know as Christians or formally known as the WILD OLIVE TREE; and number 2, the other witness standing before the one true God is ISRAEL, which is the NATURAL OLIVE TREE. No that's wrong. Where the Bible is silent it's best to keep silent. http://www.easyenglish.info/bible-commentary/revelation-lbw.htm Verse 3 God will send two men to speak for him. John does not tell us who these two witnesses are. Many Bible teachers say that these men are Moses and Elijah. Some teachers say that they are Enoch and Elijah. But we cannot be sure who they are. These two men will wear rough clothes. This is to show that they are serious. What they have to say is important. They tell about God’s anger against the *sins of the people. In *prophecy, a month is 30 days. The 1260 days here are the same period as the 42 months in verse 2. They are the last half of the 7-year period before Jesus comes. Are you saying the two witnesses laid dead for 1,260 years(3 1/2 days) that it is also the church in Rev.12 going into the wilderness for 1,260 years. They are the same ? No they are not the same. The Bible is never certain of who the two witnesses are, so it's best to be silent where the bible is silent. Scripture specifically states that the two witnesses will be prophesying in the streets as martyrs, and Israel will go into the wilderness where they are protected by God, not killed. The two witnesses also have supernatural powers. (Rev 11:5-6 And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed. 6 They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire.) Born again christians or the church or Israel do not have the power to do these things. The two witnesses can... 1. fire can pour from their mouth 2. they can shut the sky, that no rain may fall 3. they have power over the waters to turn them into blood 4. they can strike the earth with plagues However, some think the two are Elijah and Moses..Verses 5-6 These two verses show the strange power that these men had. Many people wanted to hurt them but none could. Those who tried died. Fire came from the mouths of the two men. Elijah had called down fire from heaven to kill two bands of soldiers (2 Kings 1:10-12). Like Elijah, these men could stop the rain (1 Kings 17:1). They did this for the period of 42 months. Like Moses, they could turn water into blood (Exodus 7:14-18). God had given to them more power than he gave to any of the *prophets. They could use this power as often as they wanted. They had the power to hurt people and to cause damage on the earth. http://www.easyenglish.info/bible-commentary/revelation-lbw.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARGOSY Posted January 31, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,695 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 583 Days Won: 2 Joined: 01/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/11/1968 Share Posted January 31, 2014 More questions for you all It seems you make Israel the woman and she should be here on Earth(in some kind of heavenly place?) The Red Dragon is here on Earth in the same heaven as the woman.(but cast down to Earth) Michael is here also fighting here on Earth in the same heaven as the woman and Dragon is in. If this is not on Earth then it would be in heaven then how can the woman(12 tribes of Israel) give birth in heaven and who is the Father ? Maybe we need to figure out which heaven is being used here. And keep all the same characters in the same place. I know some make it a war in heaven - if that is so - the woman(Israel) is up there also. Chapter 12 is clear the woman is on earth, the dragon is in heaven and the war is in heaven. The only part that seems to contradict this is when the dragon stands in front of the woman before he is thrown out of heaven. I just believe this is symbolic of Satan trying to destroy Jesus using Herod to slaughter the children. In the NT its clear that our enemy is in heavenly places. Satan is cast down to earth just for 3.5 years (the great tribulation). This is when Israel is safe. This fits in with the two witnesses in Jerusalem who are also kept safe for 3.5 years, and fits in with Ezekiel 39 where Israel is living in safety until the great earthquake/great feast/purification of Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bible_Gazer Posted January 31, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 450 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 152 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/05/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted January 31, 2014 I think you must keep them together as it says.The pregnant woman is in heaven.Just try this:If the woman is the church or Israel it must be here on Earth.We know Paul said something about 3rd heaven, so where is 1st and 2nd.If the woman is the church she would be 2nd heaven condition being a born again church.We read in Revelation 2 and 3 its seem the Devil been working on the saints.The Devil did fight against the early church with his Angels(religion and civil) and Michael and his angels(Apostles)fought.If the woman is Israel that would be here on Earth so it must be Israel as the heavenly place.The Red Dragon would be the Romans fighting against them.I don't think there was a literal war in 3rd heaven, Angels fighting with swords and spears or laser guns.The can't kill each other.I do think the woman represent the church.This is at the earlier stage of it.Having the 12 Apostles.(stars)Standing on the promises of the OT(moon is reflection of the Sun)The Sun is the NT church covering - Jesus.When the Dark Ages came, RCC came and suppresses any other belief it cause the church to gointo the wilderness to be hid from the Devil for a period of a time.Paul warned the church would fall away.The reformation was it of God or Man ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted January 31, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted January 31, 2014 The women is Israel, and the male child is Christ. This is a portion of the Abrahamic Covenant Gen 12:3b - all the peoples on earth will be blessed through you. Christ will reign on King Davids throne forever. His Kingship comes through Joseph via David, and His pure bloodline comes through Mary via Nathan to David. The Church did not beget Christ, Christ bore the Church. God through Abraham bore the nation of Israel who bore Christ, the One who would be the blessing to all the people on the earth. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bible_Gazer Posted January 31, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 450 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 152 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/05/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted January 31, 2014 I think the man child represent the saints of the church as well as the remnant is also.Like the Bride represent many saints not just one wife.I think what this chapter is telling John in the early church and telling us is thatthe Devil is the enemy fighting against the church.The 13th chapter tells who the devil is using to fight against it. - Rome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted January 31, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 598 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,128 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,855 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted January 31, 2014 Gen 1:14-16 14 Then God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth ";and it was so. NASB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Izzel Posted January 31, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 514 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 62 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/01/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1989 Share Posted January 31, 2014 This 1,260 year period is also set forth in Daniel, and repeatedly in following chapters of Revelation, representing the period when the Beast power ruled, and when the church and not literal israel was driven into the wilderness, as given in the next chapter. What church are you referring too? The church or the woman are The TWO GROUPS of people who are the ONLY TWO WITNESSES in all the earth who stand for the only true and wise God ARE number 1, the true believers in Christ Jesus the Son of God, otherwise know as Christians or formally known as the WILD OLIVE TREE; and number 2, the other witness standing before the one true God is ISRAEL, which is the NATURAL OLIVE TREE. No that's wrong. Where the Bible is silent it's best to keep silent. http://www.easyenglish.info/bible-commentary/revelation-lbw.htm Verse 3 God will send two men to speak for him. John does not tell us who these two witnesses are. Many Bible teachers say that these men are Moses and Elijah. Some teachers say that they are Enoch and Elijah. But we cannot be sure who they are. These two men will wear rough clothes. This is to show that they are serious. What they have to say is important. They tell about God’s anger against the *sins of the people. In *prophecy, a month is 30 days. The 1260 days here are the same period as the 42 months in verse 2. They are the last half of the 7-year period before Jesus comes. Are you saying the two witnesses laid dead for 1,260 years(3 1/2 days) that it is also the church in Rev.12 going into the wilderness for 1,260 years. They are the same ? No they are not the same. The Bible is never certain of who the two witnesses are, so it's best to be silent where the bible is silent. Scripture specifically states that the two witnesses will be prophesying in the streets as martyrs, and Israel will go into the wilderness where they are protected by God, not killed. The two witnesses also have supernatural powers. (Rev 11:5-6 And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed. 6 They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire.) Born again christians or the church or Israel do not have the power to do these things. The two witnesses can... 1. fire can pour from their mouth 2. they can shut the sky, that no rain may fall 3. they have power over the waters to turn them into blood 4. they can strike the earth with plagues However, some think the two are Elijah and Moses..Verses 5-6 These two verses show the strange power that these men had. Many people wanted to hurt them but none could. Those who tried died. Fire came from the mouths of the two men. Elijah had called down fire from heaven to kill two bands of soldiers (2 Kings 1:10-12). Like Elijah, these men could stop the rain (1 Kings 17:1). They did this for the period of 42 months. Like Moses, they could turn water into blood (Exodus 7:14-18). God had given to them more power than he gave to any of the *prophets. They could use this power as often as they wanted. They had the power to hurt people and to cause damage on the earth. http://www.easyenglish.info/bible-commentary/revelation-lbw.htm As long as you believe in a rapture of the church and a 7 year tibulation you will not get it The 2 witnesses are the Jews and the Gentiles Take care Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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