Reformed Baptist Posted January 31, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 235 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 76 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/16/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/01/1973 Share Posted January 31, 2014 God loves us so much that He gave up His divinity and His eternal life to teach us that it is possible to do the "impossible" and cheat death so that WE can be SAVED. Can you please explain how you come to the conclusion that God gave up his divinity and eternal life? I don't see God ceasing to be God anywhere in the scripture, and if you are referring to the Lord Jesus Christ he was both God and man in the incarnation. Nor did he give up his eternal life, when he died on the cross it was a physical death (which is not an end of existence, but a separation of body and soul) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanLamb0986 Posted January 31, 2014 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 51 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/10/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 31, 2014 (edited) How do you get saved? In other words, how do you cheat death? No one has ever done it except one. God saw that we keep failing to keep the commandments over and over and over and over and over again and this commandment is the key for our eternal life. So what does God do? Well He loves us so much that He says "Well, they can't seem to follow the commandment because they have never seen a man keep the commandments before so here's what I'm gonna do... I will become 100% man, 100% vulnerable to sin and death and keep the commandment myself and show my people that it is POSSIBLE to keep my commandments. And once they see that a mere man can do it... They will believe that it can be done... Man can cheat death." God loves us so much that He gave up His divinity and His eternal life to teach us that it is possible to do the "impossible" and cheat death so that WE can be SAVED. Doesn't matter if you're catholic, christian, buddhist, islamic etc etc... Once you realize that you are a sinner and you will die but you BELIEVE God became a man to save us something strange will happen... you begin to ball up and cry that our very sins are what killed our savior. ANYBODY can be saved. Woah, Jesus didn't give up His divinity. What is God if not divine? And if Jesus gave up His divinity, then He wouldn't be God, wouldn't be perfectly righteous, and His death on the cross would've been pointless, You're referring to this verse Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature[b] of a servant, being made in human likeness.8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death Read the first line. Christ's very nature is God. And we know that God cannot deny Himself. That doesn't mean God can say 'I don't exist', it just means that God cannot deny His divinity, His Holiness, His righteousness etc- they are the very essence of God. God can't choose to be less Holy or less righteous, any more than we can choose not to be carbon based mammals. If Jesus 'gave up' being God, then Jesus wasn't 'good', since only God is good. If Jesus gave up His divinity, then in His state of imperfection, He would've been an imperfect sacrifice and we would remain in our sinful state. Put bluntly, if Jesus gave up His Godliness, He died for nothing, and we are all screwed. Jesus was both fully God and fully man- hypostatic union. Salvation isn't 'cheating' death. To cheat would be a dishonest act, and since Salvation is from God, it would imply that God is dishonest. Salvation isn't 'cheating', because sinfulness wasn't our natural 'mode.' Adam was made perfectly, that was God's intention. If anything, Adam cheated himself out of life, and Jesus came to return us to our intended state- righteousness. Jesus didn't cheat death, because Paul said that 'He humbled Himself, and became obedient to death. Jesus didn't sidetrack death, He tackled it head on. But the Holiness and righteousness of Jesus couldn't be contained, and He was raised back to life. Jesus didn't come to show us how to follow the Law. He came to show us His perfection, and so realize our own imperfection. Jesus came to fulfill the Law, to bring it to completion in order to bring us under Grace. Man isn't asked to follow the Mosaic Law, because man is sinful and will only fail. Jesus said 'Do not think I have come to abolish the Law. I have not come to abolish but to fulfill them' Fulfill- to bring to completion. Of special significance in this study is the word rendered “abolish.” It translates the Greek term kataluo, literally meaning “to loosen down.” The word is found seventeen times in the New Testament. It is used, for example, of the destruction of the Jewish temple by the Romans), and of the dissolving of the human body at death ). The term can carry the extended meaning of “to overthrow,” i.e., “to render vain, deprive of success.” In classical Greek, it was used in connection with institutions, laws, etc., to convey the idea of “to invalidate.” Why would Christ come to show us how to follow a Law that He intended to make mute? If man can follow the Law, Jesus wouldn't have needed to die. We are dead to the Law, and dead men aren't obliged to follow the Law. That's what baptism represents- death to the Law and a symbolic resurrection into Grace. As soon as we fail ONCE, the punishment is death. That's why Jesus died- to die under the Law, a perfect ransom in place of us. In His death, we were given His righteousness, perfect and Holy. In that perfect righteousness we are not chained to the Law. When you said 'they will realize that a mere man can do it', you imply that Salvation is dependent on the Law. It's not. Please stop trying. To try to follow the Law is an insult to God, because His plan was to send Jesus to die, and we inherit His righteousness. If you claim we can follow the Law, what good was Jesus' death? Did Jesus die needlessly? Was God wrong when, through Paul, He said that the Law brings nothing but death? (2 Corinthians 3:6) Edited January 31, 2014 by AlanLamb0986 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AT7iLA Posted January 31, 2014 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 17 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 31, 2014 How do you get saved? In other words, how do you cheat death? No one has ever done it except one. God saw that we keep failing to keep the commandments over and over and over and over and over again and this commandment is the key for our eternal life. So what does God do? Well He loves us so much that He says "Well, they can't seem to follow the commandment because they have never seen a man keep the commandments before so here's what I'm gonna do... I will become 100% man, 100% vulnerable to sin and death and keep the commandment myself and show my people that it is POSSIBLE to keep my commandments. And once they see that a mere man can do it... They will believe that it can be done... Man can cheat death." God loves us so much that He gave up His divinity and His eternal life to teach us that it is possible to do the "impossible" and cheat death so that WE can be SAVED. Doesn't matter if you're catholic, christian, buddhist, islamic etc etc... Once you realize that you are a sinner and you will die but you BELIEVE God became a man to save us something strange will happen... you begin to ball up and cry that our very sins are what killed our savior. ANYBODY can be saved. Woah, Jesus didn't give up His divinity. What is God if not divine? And if Jesus gave up His divinity, then He wouldn't be God, wouldn't be perfectly righteous, and His death on the cross would've been pointless, You're referring to this verse Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature[b] of a servant, being made in human likeness.8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death Read the first line. Christ's very nature is God. And we know that God cannot deny Himself. That doesn't mean God can say 'I don't exist', it just means that God cannot deny His divinity, His Holiness, His righteousness etc- they are the very essence of God. God can't choose to be less Holy or less righteous, any more than we can choose not to be carbon based mammals. If Jesus 'gave up' being God, then Jesus wasn't 'good', since only God is good. If Jesus gave up His divinity, then in His state of imperfection, He would've been an imperfect sacrifice and we would remain in our sinful state. Put bluntly, if Jesus gave up His Godliness, He died for nothing, and we are all screwed. Jesus was both fully God and fully man- hypostatic union. Salvation isn't 'cheating' death. To cheat would be a dishonest act, and since Salvation is from God, it would imply that God is dishonest. Salvation isn't 'cheating', because sinfulness wasn't our natural 'mode.' Adam was made perfectly, that was God's intention. If anything, Adam cheated himself out of life, and Jesus came to return us to our intended state- righteousness. Jesus didn't cheat death, because Paul said that 'He humbled Himself, and became obedient to death. Jesus didn't sidetrack death, He tackled it head on. But the Holiness and righteousness of Jesus couldn't be contained, and He was raised back to life. Jesus didn't come to show us how to follow the Law. He came to show us His perfection, and so realize our own imperfection. Jesus came to fulfill the Law, to bring it to completion in order to bring us under Grace. Man isn't asked to follow the Mosaic Law, because man is sinful and will only fail. Jesus said 'Do not think I have come to abolish the Law. I have not come to abolish but to fulfill them' Fulfill- to bring to completion. Of special significance in this study is the word rendered “abolish.” It translates the Greek term kataluo, literally meaning “to loosen down.” The word is found seventeen times in the New Testament. It is used, for example, of the destruction of the Jewish temple by the Romans), and of the dissolving of the human body at death ). The term can carry the extended meaning of “to overthrow,” i.e., “to render vain, deprive of success.” In classical Greek, it was used in connection with institutions, laws, etc., to convey the idea of “to invalidate.” Why would Christ come to show us how to follow a Law that He intended to make mute? If man can follow the Law, Jesus wouldn't have needed to die. We are dead to the Law, and dead men aren't obliged to follow the Law. That's what baptism represents- death to the Law and a symbolic resurrection into Grace. As soon as we fail ONCE, the punishment is death. That's why Jesus died- to die under the Law, a perfect ransom in place of us. In His death, we were given His righteousness, perfect and Holy. In that perfect righteousness we are not chained to the Law. When you said 'they will realize that a mere man can do it', you imply that Salvation is dependent on the Law. It's not. Please stop trying. To try to follow the Law is an insult to God, because His plan was to send Jesus to die, and we inherit His righteousness. If you claim we can follow the Law, what good was Jesus' death? Did Jesus die needlessly? Was God wrong when, through Paul, He said that the Law brings nothing but death? (2 Corinthians 3:6) I wanna ask you a very strange question.... How do you kill God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted January 31, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Share Posted January 31, 2014 How do you get saved? In other words, how do you cheat death? No one has ever done it except one. God saw that we keep failing to keep the commandments over and over and over and over and over again and this commandment is the key for our eternal life. So what does God do? Well He loves us so much that He says "Well, they can't seem to follow the commandment because they have never seen a man keep the commandments before so here's what I'm gonna do... I will become 100% man, 100% vulnerable to sin and death and keep the commandment myself and show my people that it is POSSIBLE to keep my commandments. And once they see that a mere man can do it... They will believe that it can be done... Man can cheat death." God loves us so much that He gave up His divinity and His eternal life to teach us that it is possible to do the "impossible" and cheat death so that WE can be SAVED. Doesn't matter if you're catholic, christian, buddhist, islamic etc etc... Once you realize that you are a sinner and you will die but you BELIEVE God became a man to save us something strange will happen... you begin to ball up and cry that our very sins are what killed our savior. ANYBODY can be saved. Woah, Jesus didn't give up His divinity. What is God if not divine? And if Jesus gave up His divinity, then He wouldn't be God, wouldn't be perfectly righteous, and His death on the cross would've been pointless, You're referring to this verse Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature[b] of a servant, being made in human likeness.8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death Read the first line. Christ's very nature is God. And we know that God cannot deny Himself. That doesn't mean God can say 'I don't exist', it just means that God cannot deny His divinity, His Holiness, His righteousness etc- they are the very essence of God. God can't choose to be less Holy or less righteous, any more than we can choose not to be carbon based mammals. If Jesus 'gave up' being God, then Jesus wasn't 'good', since only God is good. If Jesus gave up His divinity, then in His state of imperfection, He would've been an imperfect sacrifice and we would remain in our sinful state. Put bluntly, if Jesus gave up His Godliness, He died for nothing, and we are all screwed. Jesus was both fully God and fully man- hypostatic union. Salvation isn't 'cheating' death. To cheat would be a dishonest act, and since Salvation is from God, it would imply that God is dishonest. Salvation isn't 'cheating', because sinfulness wasn't our natural 'mode.' Adam was made perfectly, that was God's intention. If anything, Adam cheated himself out of life, and Jesus came to return us to our intended state- righteousness. Jesus didn't cheat death, because Paul said that 'He humbled Himself, and became obedient to death. Jesus didn't sidetrack death, He tackled it head on. But the Holiness and righteousness of Jesus couldn't be contained, and He was raised back to life. Jesus didn't come to show us how to follow the Law. He came to show us His perfection, and so realize our own imperfection. Jesus came to fulfill the Law, to bring it to completion in order to bring us under Grace. Man isn't asked to follow the Mosaic Law, because man is sinful and will only fail. Jesus said 'Do not think I have come to abolish the Law. I have not come to abolish but to fulfill them' Fulfill- to bring to completion. Of special significance in this study is the word rendered “abolish.” It translates the Greek term kataluo, literally meaning “to loosen down.” The word is found seventeen times in the New Testament. It is used, for example, of the destruction of the Jewish temple by the Romans), and of the dissolving of the human body at death ). The term can carry the extended meaning of “to overthrow,” i.e., “to render vain, deprive of success.” In classical Greek, it was used in connection with institutions, laws, etc., to convey the idea of “to invalidate.” Why would Christ come to show us how to follow a Law that He intended to make mute? If man can follow the Law, Jesus wouldn't have needed to die. We are dead to the Law, and dead men aren't obliged to follow the Law. That's what baptism represents- death to the Law and a symbolic resurrection into Grace. As soon as we fail ONCE, the punishment is death. That's why Jesus died- to die under the Law, a perfect ransom in place of us. In His death, we were given His righteousness, perfect and Holy. In that perfect righteousness we are not chained to the Law. When you said 'they will realize that a mere man can do it', you imply that Salvation is dependent on the Law. It's not. Please stop trying. To try to follow the Law is an insult to God, because His plan was to send Jesus to die, and we inherit His righteousness. If you claim we can follow the Law, what good was Jesus' death? Did Jesus die needlessly? Was God wrong when, through Paul, He said that the Law brings nothing but death? (2 Corinthians 3:6) I wanna ask you a very strange question.... How do you kill God? You don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AT7iLA Posted January 31, 2014 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 17 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 31, 2014 When Jesus was on earth, He was only divine through FAITH and COMMUNION with God. I'll quote the scripture in a bit. But the bible basically says He can do these miracles during His ministry because He GLORIFIED His Father. Same with Peter while Jesus walked on water... The only reason why Peter also could walk on water for a moment was because Peter believed and through that belief he was glorifying God. But then when Peter DOUBTED he suddenly sank, didn't he? Then Jesus said "Why did you doubt..?" Jesus laid aside His divinity to show us that FOLLOWING THESE COMMANDMENTS can be done. How is He gonna ask us to do the impossible if no one had ever done it before... Well He had to become a MAN (scripture says). GET TEMPTED BY SATAN (scripture says) .. He was a MAN of SORROWS (scripture says). Yes He was God... You can't deny He was God and IS God but He had to lay that aside for a moment and HELP US. "EMMANUEL" GOD WITH US. Scripture says He is INFINITE. BUT when He was on earth something strange happened... He was BORN. God can not be BORN........... If you believe that God Himself can be KILLED AS God... well then I don't know what to tell you...... Scriptures CLEARLY SAY he became FLESH (John chapter 1) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AT7iLA Posted January 31, 2014 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 17 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 31, 2014 How do you get saved? In other words, how do you cheat death? No one has ever done it except one. God saw that we keep failing to keep the commandments over and over and over and over and over again and this commandment is the key for our eternal life. So what does God do? Well He loves us so much that He says "Well, they can't seem to follow the commandment because they have never seen a man keep the commandments before so here's what I'm gonna do... I will become 100% man, 100% vulnerable to sin and death and keep the commandment myself and show my people that it is POSSIBLE to keep my commandments. And once they see that a mere man can do it... They will believe that it can be done... Man can cheat death." God loves us so much that He gave up His divinity and His eternal life to teach us that it is possible to do the "impossible" and cheat death so that WE can be SAVED. Doesn't matter if you're catholic, christian, buddhist, islamic etc etc... Once you realize that you are a sinner and you will die but you BELIEVE God became a man to save us something strange will happen... you begin to ball up and cry that our very sins are what killed our savior. ANYBODY can be saved. Woah, Jesus didn't give up His divinity. What is God if not divine? And if Jesus gave up His divinity, then He wouldn't be God, wouldn't be perfectly righteous, and His death on the cross would've been pointless, You're referring to this verse Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature[b] of a servant, being made in human likeness.8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death Read the first line. Christ's very nature is God. And we know that God cannot deny Himself. That doesn't mean God can say 'I don't exist', it just means that God cannot deny His divinity, His Holiness, His righteousness etc- they are the very essence of God. God can't choose to be less Holy or less righteous, any more than we can choose not to be carbon based mammals. If Jesus 'gave up' being God, then Jesus wasn't 'good', since only God is good. If Jesus gave up His divinity, then in His state of imperfection, He would've been an imperfect sacrifice and we would remain in our sinful state. Put bluntly, if Jesus gave up His Godliness, He died for nothing, and we are all screwed. Jesus was both fully God and fully man- hypostatic union. Salvation isn't 'cheating' death. To cheat would be a dishonest act, and since Salvation is from God, it would imply that God is dishonest. Salvation isn't 'cheating', because sinfulness wasn't our natural 'mode.' Adam was made perfectly, that was God's intention. If anything, Adam cheated himself out of life, and Jesus came to return us to our intended state- righteousness. Jesus didn't cheat death, because Paul said that 'He humbled Himself, and became obedient to death. Jesus didn't sidetrack death, He tackled it head on. But the Holiness and righteousness of Jesus couldn't be contained, and He was raised back to life. Jesus didn't come to show us how to follow the Law. He came to show us His perfection, and so realize our own imperfection. Jesus came to fulfill the Law, to bring it to completion in order to bring us under Grace. Man isn't asked to follow the Mosaic Law, because man is sinful and will only fail. Jesus said 'Do not think I have come to abolish the Law. I have not come to abolish but to fulfill them' Fulfill- to bring to completion. Of special significance in this study is the word rendered “abolish.” It translates the Greek term kataluo, literally meaning “to loosen down.” The word is found seventeen times in the New Testament. It is used, for example, of the destruction of the Jewish temple by the Romans), and of the dissolving of the human body at death ). The term can carry the extended meaning of “to overthrow,” i.e., “to render vain, deprive of success.” In classical Greek, it was used in connection with institutions, laws, etc., to convey the idea of “to invalidate.” Why would Christ come to show us how to follow a Law that He intended to make mute? If man can follow the Law, Jesus wouldn't have needed to die. We are dead to the Law, and dead men aren't obliged to follow the Law. That's what baptism represents- death to the Law and a symbolic resurrection into Grace. As soon as we fail ONCE, the punishment is death. That's why Jesus died- to die under the Law, a perfect ransom in place of us. In His death, we were given His righteousness, perfect and Holy. In that perfect righteousness we are not chained to the Law. When you said 'they will realize that a mere man can do it', you imply that Salvation is dependent on the Law. It's not. Please stop trying. To try to follow the Law is an insult to God, because His plan was to send Jesus to die, and we inherit His righteousness. If you claim we can follow the Law, what good was Jesus' death? Did Jesus die needlessly? Was God wrong when, through Paul, He said that the Law brings nothing but death? (2 Corinthians 3:6) I wanna ask you a very strange question.... How do you kill God? You don't. EXACTLY... So how was Jesus killed?........... as a what.....? as a God?.... or as a man......? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldSchool2 Posted January 31, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 701 Topics Per Day: 0.13 Content Count: 7,511 Content Per Day: 1.35 Reputation: 1,759 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/16/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/18/1955 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Silviawang.....I don't see how a person can retain both titles ...I think she meant (Roman) Catholics and (Eastern) Orthodox Christians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1x1is1 Posted January 31, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,146 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 732 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/30/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/10/1950 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Oldschool2....now that is more like it, thanks. Still have my hair, but would probably scratch it off pondering on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlelambseativy Posted January 31, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 230 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,941 Content Per Day: 0.95 Reputation: 2,003 Days Won: 14 Joined: 02/08/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted January 31, 2014 Jesus was not killed He chose when He would die. Those who were with Him took longer to die so their legs were broken to speed their death - they were killed. Jesus gave up His own spirit at His choosing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reformed Baptist Posted February 1, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 235 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 76 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/16/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/01/1973 Share Posted February 1, 2014 When Jesus was on earth, He was only divine through FAITH and COMMUNION with God. I'll quote the scripture in a bit. But the bible basically says He can do these miracles during His ministry because He GLORIFIED His Father. Same with Peter while Jesus walked on water... The only reason why Peter also could walk on water for a moment was because Peter believed and through that belief he was glorifying God. But then when Peter DOUBTED he suddenly sank, didn't he? Then Jesus said "Why did you doubt..?" Jesus laid aside His divinity to show us that FOLLOWING THESE COMMANDMENTS can be done. How is He gonna ask us to do the impossible if no one had ever done it before... Well He had to become a MAN (scripture says). GET TEMPTED BY SATAN (scripture says) .. He was a MAN of SORROWS (scripture says). Yes He was God... You can't deny He was God and IS God but He had to lay that aside for a moment and HELP US. "EMMANUEL" GOD WITH US. Scripture says He is INFINITE. BUT when He was on earth something strange happened... He was BORN. God can not be BORN........... If you believe that God Himself can be KILLED AS God... well then I don't know what to tell you...... Scriptures CLEARLY SAY he became FLESH (John chapter 1) Friend, I don't know what to tell you other then the begin with the same warning that John the Apostle gives, " Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. (2Jo 1:9 NKJ) that is a warning we should take seriously - it is no light matter to misunderstand the Bible's teaching in regards to the person and nature of the Lord Jesus Christ - indeed are very salvation depends upon it! Now coming onto what you have said, When Jesus was on earth, He was only divine through FAITH and COMMUNION with God. My friend, that makes no sense. Nor does it agree with scriptures testimony. When Thomas meets the risen Lord Jesus Christ he calls him 'my Lord and my God' and Jesus in no way rebukes him for that. I find it interesting that the religious leaders of his day, who hated him and wanted to see him dead, understood that he was claiming to be God - and used those claims to sentence him to death for blasphemy (Matt 26:55), but today people who claim to love don't seem to understand his words. As for your reasoning that God cannot be born, or die well why not? Whoa re you to say what God can, and cannot do? When the Lord Jesus Christ was born God became man, humanity was added to his divinity. His divinity was not suspended in any way, it wasn't laid aside and there is no scripture that even suggests that it was! Rather humanity was added to his divinity. So whilst God was never born, the God man was in what is the greatest miracle of history. So yes scriptures clearly say he became flesh, and that same passage to which you refer also clearly says that those who saw him in the flesh beheld the glory of God. My friend, I would urge you to return to scripture and to look into again in regards to this matter for to make Jesus merely human in his life is to be dangerously close to the warning of John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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