Can the Catholic, Orthodox Christian,be saved?

[other one]

Because the Father is so holy that He cannot look at sin and since all the sin of the world from the beginning in the Garden of Eden to the time of the end was place on Jesus, the Father at that moment turned away from His beloved Son and Jesus saw that He was left alone to bear that sin, cried out in anguish that even the Father had abandoned Him. Jesus being God had to lay down His own life for the sins of many it could not be taken from Him.[/quote

and apparently just turned the sun off so the rest of nature wouldn't have to see.

The sun darkened could certainly account for athirst day ?? Jesus certainly felt and saw that the Father abandoned Him why else would He cry Father why hast Thou forsaken Me?

 

 

I have always wondered how Adam and Eve felt when got kicked them out of the Garden and I assume stopped visiting them.

[missmuffet]

Anyone who asked Jesus Christ into their life and asks for repentence will be saved John3:16

[other one]

Anyone who asked Jesus Christ into their life and asks for repentence will be saved John3:16

 

I wouldn't use those exact words, but it's close......    Romans  10:9+

[Guest shiloh357]

That sounds like suicide. Jesus didn't sacrifice himself. Man sacrificed him. When they sacrificed lambs on the alter...did the lamb sacrifice itself...no....man sacrificed the lamb

 

Man crucified Him.   Jesus was in total control of the events surrounding His death.   Jesus was not killed by the efforts of man.  Jesus did what  none of can do:  Jesus gave up His spirit. He died at exactly 3pm, the exact moment the passover lamb was killed in Jerusalem.   Jesus didn't die from the effects of crucifixion.   He died at the moment He chose to die and not one second sooner or later.  

 

Here's what Jesus said:

 

No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Joh 10:18

 

Jesus gave His life.  Man did not take His life from Him.   Jesus death was voluntary sacrifice  Note this passage also:

 

Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

1Co 5:7

To call Jesus' death anything but a sacrifice is to cast a shadow on the value and meaning of His death.  The ONLY value the death of Jesus is given in Scripture is that of a sacrifice for sin. (Hebrews 10)

 

Y did Jesus holler out y did you forsake me...to his father...Jesus was feeling forsaken by his own father...

 

Jesus was quoting from Psalm 22, a prophecy of His death on the cross.

 

it doesn't diminish anything for me...in fact it helps me understand the wrath of Almighty God. When you realize what innocent Jesus had to do for my sins...it brings me to tears...and he still forgives mankind...if they repent...if people are to proud to repent for what they did to Jesus they deserve the wrath...God chose to bring this sacrifice through his chosen people for all mankind....Jews slaughtered lamb after lamb for years...and they slaughtered the Lamb of God...for all of us...The whole world should get down on their knees and thank the Jews...they turned him over to the Romans for the ultimate sacrifice by mankind...otherwise friends and relatives...we were all heading to eternal damnation...

 

Jesus' death is meaningless if Jesus died due to the will of man.   Jesus' death was His own doing and as God Jesus was sovereign over those who were crucifying Him.  Jesus' gave His life as a sacrifice for sin and He used men to accomplish it.  But his death was a not  murder, it was not an execution, it was not an act of martyrdom.  Jesus was not at the mercy of men, but was fulfilling the will of His Father that was already in place before the foundations of earth were laid.

 

James 5:6 You have condemned and murdered the innocent one, who was not opposing you.

 

That is referencing the taking of innocent blood.  It is not a reference to Jesus, particular.  The "just one" or as you have it, "the innocent one"  in Greek is  

tōn dikaion and it references a particular class of person.  It is a generic word that doesn't refer to one specific person, but is a general term that is simply applied to innocent people.

 

[almightyist]

That sounds like suicide. Jesus didn't sacrifice himself. Man sacrificed him. When they sacrificed lambs on the alter...did the lamb sacrifice itself...no....man sacrificed the lamb

Man crucified Him. Jesus was in total control of the events surrounding His death. Jesus was not killed by the efforts of man. Jesus did what none of can do: Jesus gave up His spirit. He died at exactly 3pm, the exact moment the passover lamb was killed in Jerusalem. Jesus didn't die from the effects of crucifixion. He died at the moment He chose to die and not one second sooner or later.

Here's what Jesus said:

No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Joh 10:18

Jesus gave His life. Man did not take His life from Him. Jesus death was voluntary sacrifice Note this passage also:

Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

1Co 5:7

To call Jesus' death anything but a sacrifice is to cast a shadow on the value and meaning of His death. The ONLY value the death of Jesus is given in Scripture is that of a sacrifice for sin. (Hebrews 10)

Y did Jesus holler out y did you forsake me...to his father...Jesus was feeling forsaken by his own father...

Jesus was quoting from Psalm 22, a prophecy of His death on the cross.

it doesn't diminish anything for me...in fact it helps me understand the wrath of Almighty God. When you realize what innocent Jesus had to do for my sins...it brings me to tears...and he still forgives mankind...if they repent...if people are to proud to repent for what they did to Jesus they deserve the wrath...God chose to bring this sacrifice through his chosen people for all mankind....Jews slaughtered lamb after lamb for years...and they slaughtered the Lamb of God...for all of us...The whole world should get down on their knees and thank the Jews...they turned him over to the Romans for the ultimate sacrifice by mankind...otherwise friends and relatives...we were all heading to eternal damnation...

Jesus' death is meaningless if Jesus died due to the will of man. Jesus' death was His own doing and as God Jesus was sovereign over those who were crucifying Him. Jesus' gave His life as a sacrifice for sin and He used men to accomplish it. But his death was a not murder, it was not an execution, it was not an act of martyrdom. Jesus was not at the mercy of men, but was fulfilling the will of His Father that was already in place before the foundations of earth were laid.

James 5:6 You have condemned and murdered the innocent one, who was not opposing you.

That is referencing the taking of innocent blood. It is not a reference to Jesus, particular. The "just one" or as you have it, "the innocent one" in Greek is

tōn dikaion and it references a particular class of person. It is a generic word that doesn't refer to one specific person, but is a general term that is simply applied to innocent people.

John 19:11 Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”

Greater sin...if Jesus death is his own doing then why was it considered a greater sin

When Jesus says no man takes his life from him ....that means he wouldn't resist.. At any time Jesus could have called a legion of angels. Jesus made himself powerless to fulfill scripture . And he was killed by man in a horrific way. Killing a innocent man is a great sin. If no man takes his life with your approach then it wasn't a sin because according to you man didn't kill him.

Matthew 26:52-54 “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”

John 8:37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word.

Acts 3:13-15 The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.

Matthew 17:11-12 Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.”

The same way. Elijah was killed by man. Jesus was killed by man. The same way.

Romans 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?

Did not spare his son to be killed by man.

There is about 50 more scriptures saying Jesus was killed. Come on man.

Edited February 7, 2014 by almightyist

[Fez]

 

 

That sounds like suicide. Jesus didn't sacrifice himself. Man sacrificed him. When they sacrificed lambs on the alter...did the lamb sacrifice itself...no....man sacrificed the lamb

Man crucified Him. Jesus was in total control of the events surrounding His death. Jesus was not killed by the efforts of man. Jesus did what none of can do: Jesus gave up His spirit. He died at exactly 3pm, the exact moment the passover lamb was killed in Jerusalem. Jesus didn't die from the effects of crucifixion. He died at the moment He chose to die and not one second sooner or later.

Here's what Jesus said:

No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Joh 10:18

Jesus gave His life. Man did not take His life from Him. Jesus death was voluntary sacrifice Note this passage also:

Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

1Co 5:7

To call Jesus' death anything but a sacrifice is to cast a shadow on the value and meaning of His death. The ONLY value the death of Jesus is given in Scripture is that of a sacrifice for sin. (Hebrews 10)

Y did Jesus holler out y did you forsake me...to his father...Jesus was feeling forsaken by his own father...

Jesus was quoting from Psalm 22, a prophecy of His death on the cross.

it doesn't diminish anything for me...in fact it helps me understand the wrath of Almighty God. When you realize what innocent Jesus had to do for my sins...it brings me to tears...and he still forgives mankind...if they repent...if people are to proud to repent for what they did to Jesus they deserve the wrath...God chose to bring this sacrifice through his chosen people for all mankind....Jews slaughtered lamb after lamb for years...and they slaughtered the Lamb of God...for all of us...The whole world should get down on their knees and thank the Jews...they turned him over to the Romans for the ultimate sacrifice by mankind...otherwise friends and relatives...we were all heading to eternal damnation...

Jesus' death is meaningless if Jesus died due to the will of man. Jesus' death was His own doing and as God Jesus was sovereign over those who were crucifying Him. Jesus' gave His life as a sacrifice for sin and He used men to accomplish it. But his death was a not murder, it was not an execution, it was not an act of martyrdom. Jesus was not at the mercy of men, but was fulfilling the will of His Father that was already in place before the foundations of earth were laid.

James 5:6 You have condemned and murdered the innocent one, who was not opposing you.

That is referencing the taking of innocent blood. It is not a reference to Jesus, particular. The "just one" or as you have it, "the innocent one" in Greek is

tōn dikaion and it references a particular class of person. It is a generic word that doesn't refer to one specific person, but is a general term that is simply applied to innocent people.

John 19:11 Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”

Greater sin...if Jesus death is his own doing then why was it considered a greater sin

When Jesus says no man takes his life from him ....that means he wouldn't resist.. At any time Jesus could have called a legion of angels. Jesus made himself powerless to fulfill scripture . And he was killed by man in a horrific way. Killing a innocent man is a great sin. If no man takes his life with your approach then it wasn't a sin because according to you man didn't kill him.

Matthew 26:52-54 “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”

John 8:37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word.

Acts 3:13-15 The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.

Matthew 17:11-12 Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.”

The same way. Elijah was killed by man. Jesus was killed by man. The same way.

Romans 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?

Did not spare his son to be killed by man.

There is about 50 more scriptures saying Jesus was killed. Come on man.

 

You still don't get the sacrifice part don't you?

[Guest shiloh357]

John 19:11 Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”

Greater sin...if Jesus death is his own doing then why was it considered a greater sin

 

Jesus is referring to Caiaphas, particular and the Sanhedrin in General.   They were guilty of a greater sin that Pilate because Jesus had been in their midst performing miracles and proving He was the Messiah.   Their rejection of Jesus was done with both eyes open, whereas Pilate’s actions, though still sinful in that he was still going to hand Jesus over to  be punished while declaring His innocence, was more from a position of ignorance.    The Chief Priest, Caiaphas and the Sandhedrin should not have brought Jesus before Pilate in the first place and because they had more evidence than anyone for Jesus’ innocence, their sin was greater than Pilate’s.

When Jesus says no man takes his life from him ....that means he wouldn't resist..

No, that is not what it means.   Look at what it says again, in John 10: 

 

 

No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.Joh 10:18

 

 

That verse tells us that Jesus wasn’t slimply NOT resisting. He says that no one TAKES His life from Him.   Murder is the act of taking innocent human life.   Jesus said that His life was not being taken by anyone.  It is not the case that Jesus is simply not resisting them.   Rather, Jesus as God is sovereign over the events surrounding His death.    His death on the cross was the reason He came to earth.   He came to earth for the purpose of going to the cross.   His mission was to give His life for sin of man.  Note what else Jesus says:

 

For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." Mar 10:45

 

 

Jesus viewed His death as something HE was doing, not something that man was doing to Him.  Man had no power over Jesus, ultimately.   The Jewish religious leaders and the Romans were tools in Jesus hands to make His death a reality.   He had to die and in His sovereignty, He used the Jewish religious leadership and the Romans to fulfill prophecy and bring about man’s redemption.  

 

 

At any time Jesus could have called a legion of angels. Jesus made himself powerless to fulfill scripture . And he was killed by man in a horrific way. Killing a innocent man is a great sin. If no man takes his life with your approach then it wasn't a sin because according to you man didn't kill him.

 

 

What they did was a sin based on sinful motives and based on the fact that they had to violate the laws God gave them to put Jesus on trial and to declare Him deserving of death.   Their sin and culpability, their willingness to condemn Jesus to death is not in dispute, but the fact is that the Lord used that to accomplish His will.   It’s part of what it means for Him to be sovereign.   He used them for His glory, the same way He used Pharoah.

Matthew 26:52-54 “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”
 

John 8:37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word.

Acts 3:13-15 The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.


Matthew 17:11-12 Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.”

The same way. Elijah was killed by man. Jesus was killed by man. The same way.

From the observational vantage point, Jesus death looks like murder.  And the Bible speaks in that observational term when it deals with the human culpability in the events surrounding Jesus’s death.   The Bible emphasises the sin of those who were complicit in sending Jesus to the cross.

 

 

But the OTHER side of the coin deals with the theology of Jesus’ death, which is the part you are not paying any attention to.   Jesus’ crucifixion, while carried out by men ,  was not the cause of Jesus death, when examined from the theological vantage point.   Jesus didn’t die from crucifixion.

 

 

The Bible says in Matt. 27:50 that He gave up His spirit.  Jesus did what you and I cannot do.  He gave up His spirit at will, on impulse.   Jesus’ death coincided with the death of the Passover lamb that was killed in the Temple in Jerusalem, at exactly  3pm. Jesus’ death on the cross occurred after only six hours.  It took Jesus six hours on the cross to accomplish what God needed to accomplish.  When He was done, He simply died at will at the moment He chose to die.   That proves that Jesus is sovereign over the events surrounding His death.  He chose the moment of His death.  He did not succumb to the effects of crucifixion.

Romans 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?

Did not spare his son to be killed by man.

There is about 50 more scriptures saying Jesus was killed. Come on man.

You need to stop pitting the Bible against itself.   You need to recognize that the Bible deals with the death of Jesus from two sides:   The human culpability in the events surrounding the crucifixion and the voluntary, sovereign character of Jesus death.  Jesus’ dath was not the product of Jesus succumbing to the will of man, but was in obedience to God’s will.

 

 

Then I said, 'Behold, I have come to do your will, O God, as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.'" When he said above, "You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings" (these are offered according to the law), then he added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He does away with the first in order to establish the second. And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Heb 10:7-10

 

 

It was a sacrifice for sin that Jesus had already been destined to accomplish before the world was created.  It was nothing less than a sacrifice for sin

 

 

But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. Heb 10:12-14

 

 

Notice that first phrase:  “But when Christ had offered…”   Jesus offered Himself a single sacrifice for sin.   That is how the Bible views the death of Jesus. It was a sacrifice for sin that Jesus offered of Himself.

 

[almightyist]

In John 10, Jesus said that no man takes His life from Him, and that he gives it up of His own will. Jesus was not murdered, executed nor was he a martyr. Jesus' death was a sacrifice. When we attribute Jesus' death to any effort of man, we diminish its significance. Jesus gave His life. No one took it from Him.

Revelation 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying:“You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals,because you were slain,and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.

Revelation 5:12 In a loud voice they were saying:“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!”

Slain is past version of slay ....slay means kill.....slain means killed.

John 1:29, 36 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! When he saw Jesus passing by, he said, “Look, the Lamb of God!”

1 Corinthians 5:7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.

sacrifice - : an act of killing a person or animal in a religious ceremony as an offering to please a god

: a person or animal that is killed in a sacrifice

Romans 3:25-26 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Philippians 2:5-11 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God,did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant,being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man,he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,to the glory of God the Father.

The only thing I can add is... A few years back Mel Gipson directed a movie called Passion of the Christ. About the closest thing to bringing the Bible to life that you will ever see. It is graphic...I think rated R... Another movie that may help is Chronicle of Narnia the first one. More of a fairy tale but u can see the kind of how it parallels the Bible in the regards to the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. You may be able to find both of them at your local library. The are worth the watch and they will visually help you understand what Jesus did for all of mankind.

They give you a sense of what the Bible says Jesus went thru. Nothing can recreate that horrific time but I'm thankful that somebody had the courage to try.

Edited February 8, 2014 by almightyist

[Guest shiloh357]

 

In John 10, Jesus said that no man takes His life from Him, and that he gives it up of His own will. Jesus was not murdered, executed nor was he a martyr. Jesus' death was a sacrifice. When we attribute Jesus' death to any effort of man, we diminish its significance. Jesus gave His life. No one took it from Him.

Revelation 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying:“You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals,because you were slain,and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.

Revelation 5:12 In a loud voice they were saying:“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!”

Slain is past version of slay ....slay means kill.....slain means killed.

John 1:29, 36 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! When he saw Jesus passing by, he said, “Look, the Lamb of God!”

1 Corinthians 5:7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.

sacrifice - : an act of killing a person or animal in a religious ceremony as an offering to please a god

: a person or animal that is killed in a sacrifice

 

 

 

Yes, but you are still not getting it.  From an historical, observational perspective, Jesus the man was killed.  

 

But from a theological perspective, Jesus was sacrificed by God, who used human instruments to carry out that claim.   You need to stop trying refute the Bible with the Bible.  Jesus said that His death was His own doing, that He gave His life.   That means that everything the Bible says historically about the death of Jesus needs to be viewed through the prism of His sacrifice and not relegated to something like murder or execution.  Man did not take Jesus' life.  His death was a sacrifice for sin.   THAT is how we are to view it.

[almightyist]

I understand what you are trying to say. It is accountability thing for you. You believe Jesus had to die for us but feel no remorse for the actual killing of Jesus. You say Jesus controlled his death....I blame mankind, all of us for his murder. You have no need to repent for the killing of Jesus and I felt responsible for killing of Jesus so I told him in tears of sorrow ...I am sorry... Please forgive me.... You thanked him for his sacrifice for your sins but do not hold any responsibility of his death on yourself...

Shiloh357

But the OTHER side of the coin deals with the theology of Jesus’ death, which is the part you are not paying any attention to. Jesus’ crucifixion, while carried out by men , was not the cause of Jesus death, when examined from the theological vantage point. Jesus didn’t die from crucifixion.

Crucify means put to death by nailing or binding the hands and feet to a cross.

Then if he didn't die from crucifixion then he wasn't crucified because crucify means put to death.

The Cross would mean nothing to you since he wasn't crucified.

He wasn't killed..... he wasn't crucified. What is your agenda in all this?

Because there is about another 100 scriptures that say Jesus was crucified which means put to death, killed, murdered, executed by mankind.

When Jesus was on the cross ..it was the Lamb of God...a Lamb is completely helpless, he was completely in the hands of his father. His Fathers will. God the Father determined the timing of his death. Do you believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

My question for you...all the praying that Jesus did on earth...was he praying to himself or to God the Father. I think that is why you have trouble understanding that Jesus was killed by Mankind.

And when he laid down his life for us ...he was helpless as a Lamb .....of God...

Edited February 8, 2014 by almightyist