Can the Catholic, Orthodox Christian,be saved?

[Littlelambseativy]

Read all of John 17, a portion of this chapter is here and I pray this answers you.

 

 

17 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should[a] give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

 

20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will[e] believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

 

24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

[AlanLamb0986]

 

 

 

 

 

How do you get saved? In other words, how do you cheat death?

 

No one has ever done it except one.

 

God saw that we keep failing to keep the commandments over and over and over and over and over again and this commandment is the key for our eternal life. So what does God do? Well He loves us so much that He says "Well, they can't seem to follow the commandment because they have never seen a man keep the commandments before so here's what I'm gonna do... I will become 100% man, 100% vulnerable to sin and death and keep the commandment myself and show my people that it is POSSIBLE to keep my commandments. And once they see that a mere man can do it... They will believe that it can be done... Man can cheat death."

 

God loves us so much that He gave up His divinity and His eternal life to teach us that it is possible to do the "impossible" and cheat death so that WE can be SAVED.

 

Doesn't matter if you're catholic, christian, buddhist, islamic etc etc... Once you realize that you are a sinner and you will die but you BELIEVE God became a man to save us something strange will happen... you begin to ball up and cry that our very sins are what killed our savior.

 

ANYBODY can be saved.

 

Woah, Jesus didn't give up His divinity. What is God if not divine? And if Jesus gave up His divinity, then He wouldn't be God, wouldn't be perfectly righteous, and His death on the cross would've been pointless, You're referring to this verse

 

Who, being in very nature God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
    by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    by becoming obedient to death

 

Read the first line. Christ's very nature is God. And we know that God cannot deny Himself. That doesn't mean God can say 'I don't exist', it just means that God cannot deny His divinity, His Holiness, His righteousness etc- they are the very essence of God. God can't choose to be less Holy or less righteous, any more than we can choose not to be carbon based mammals. If Jesus 'gave up' being God, then Jesus wasn't 'good', since only God is good. If Jesus gave up His divinity, then in His state of imperfection, He would've been an imperfect sacrifice and we would remain in our sinful state. Put bluntly, if Jesus gave up His Godliness, He died for nothing, and we are all screwed. Jesus was both fully God and fully man- hypostatic union. 

 

Salvation isn't 'cheating' death. To cheat would be a dishonest act, and since Salvation is from God, it would imply that God is dishonest. Salvation isn't 'cheating', because sinfulness wasn't our natural 'mode.' Adam was made perfectly, that was God's intention. If anything, Adam cheated himself out of life, and Jesus came to return us to our intended state- righteousness. Jesus didn't cheat death, because Paul said that 'He humbled Himself, and became obedient to death. Jesus didn't sidetrack death, He tackled it head on. But the Holiness and righteousness of Jesus couldn't be contained, and He was raised back to life. 

Jesus didn't come to show us how to follow the Law. He came to show us His perfection, and so realize our own imperfection. Jesus came to fulfill the Law, to bring it to completion in order to bring us under Grace. Man isn't asked to follow the Mosaic Law, because man is sinful and will only fail. 

 

Jesus said 'Do not think I have come to abolish the Law. I have not come to abolish but to fulfill them'

 

Fulfill- to bring to completion. Of special significance in this study is the word rendered “abolish.” It translates the Greek term kataluo, literally meaning “to loosen down.” The word is found seventeen times in the New Testament. It is used, for example, of the destruction of the Jewish temple by the Romans), and of the dissolving of the human body at death ). The term can carry the extended meaning of “to overthrow,” i.e., “to render vain, deprive of success.” In classical Greek, it was used in connection with institutions, laws, etc., to convey the idea of “to invalidate.” Why would Christ come to show us how to follow a Law that He intended to make mute?

 

If man can follow the Law, Jesus wouldn't have needed to die. We are dead to the Law, and dead men aren't obliged to follow the Law. That's what baptism represents- death to the Law and a symbolic resurrection into Grace. As soon as we fail ONCE, the punishment is death. That's why Jesus died- to die under the Law, a perfect ransom in place of us. In His death, we were given His righteousness, perfect and Holy. In that perfect righteousness we are not chained to the Law. When you said 'they will realize that a mere man can do it', you imply that Salvation is dependent on the Law. It's not. Please stop trying. To try to follow the Law is an insult to God, because His plan was to send Jesus to die, and we inherit His righteousness. If you claim we can follow the Law, what good was Jesus' death? Did Jesus die needlessly? Was God wrong when, through Paul, He said that the Law brings nothing but death? (2 Corinthians 3:6)

 

I wanna ask you a very strange question.... How do you kill God?

 

You don't.

 

EXACTLY...

 

So how was Jesus killed?........... as a what.....? as a God?.... or as a man......?

 

You sound like a Muslim,using the same arguments that they use, and placing God in the same two dimensional view as they do. I think the Bible clearly states how Jesus can be divine and choose to die on the Cross, I think you'd be interested to know that your view goes against the teachings of mainline Christianity. Most Christians view Jesus as fully man, and fully God- the Hypostatic Union. Those who don't agree with the Hypostatic Union are usually JW's or Mormons.  it's just you're assuming that Jesus' divinity was His body, where as a mainline Christian views Jesus' divinity as His Spirit, and being only contained by His body, not defined by it.

 

The hypostatic union is the term used to describe how God the Son, Jesus Christ, took on a human nature, yet remained fully God at the same time. Jesus always had been God (John 8:58,10:30), but at the incarnation Jesus became a human being (John 1:14). If you claim that Jesus was the eternal God, who upon His earthly ministry became completely human, then you're in disagreement with the Bible. The word makes it clear that Jesus cannot change who He is. So who He was in Heaven was who He was on earth- God.

 

"Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever." Hebrews 13:8

 

You could claim that this verse only applies to Jesus after His earthly ministry. But then you'd have to ignore the word 'forever.' Forever must have no starting point, otherwise it's not forever, but 'x' amount of time. For Jesus to be the same forever, He must be the same as He was pre-incarnation as He is now. That doesn't mean Jesus had a flesh and blood body pre-incarnation, but only means that His nature, His eternal substance in unchanging- He is, was, and always will be fully God.

 

The addition of the human nature to the divine nature is Jesus, the God-man. This is the hypostatic union, Jesus Christ, one Person, fully God and fully man.

Jesus' two natures, human and divine, are inseparable. Jesus will forever be the God-man, fully God and fully human, two distinct natures in one Person. Jesus' humanity and divinity are not mixed, but are united without loss of separate identity. Jesus sometimes operated with the limitations of humanity (John 4:6,19:28) and other times in the power of His deity (John 11:43;Matthew 14:18-21). In both, Jesus' actions were from His one Person. Jesus had two natures, but only one personality.

 

The doctrine of the hypostatic union is an attempt to explain how Jesus could be both God and man at the same time. It is ultimately, though, a doctrine we are incapable of fully understanding. It is impossible for us to fully understand how God works. We, as human beings with finite minds, should not expect to totally comprehend an infinite God. Jesus is God’s Son in that He was conceived by the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35). But that does not mean Jesus did not exist before He was conceived. Jesus has always existed (John 8:58,10:30). When Jesus was conceived, He became a human being in addition to being God (John 1:1,14).

 

Jesus is both God and man. Jesus has always been God, but He did not become a human being until He was conceived in Mary. Jesus became a human being in order to identify with us in our struggles (Hebrews 2:17) and, more importantly, so that He could die on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins (Philippians 2:5-11). In summary, the hypostatic union teaches that Jesus is both fully human and fully divine, that there is no mixture or dilution of either nature, and that He is one united Person, forever.

 

So what is God?

 

"God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth." John 4:24

 

Was Jesus' Spirit crushed or destroyed? No. So how does Jesus' body being broken, in any way make it sound like God died?

 

"And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me." Luke 22:19

 

So it's pretty obvious that Jesus could 'die' and still retain His divinity. Jesus' divinity is bound by Spirit, not flesh. I think it funny that you quote Jesus was Emmanuel, but deny the prophecy that clearly states that when God comes in flesh, He  would still be Mighty God:

 

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.- Isaiah 9:6

Edited February 1, 2014 by AlanLamb0986

[Guest DRS81]

Can the Catholic, Orthodox Christian,be saved?

 

Just the question.

 

Salvation is for all, but you have the choice to accept it or reject it. Blessings.

[Aittv]

Don't worry about them. Let the Lord judge them justly.

[almightyist]

Jesus was not killed He chose when He would die. Those who were with Him took longer to die so their legs were broken to speed their death - they were killed. Jesus gave up His own spirit at His choosing.

Mark 9:31 because he was teaching his disciples. He said to them, “The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise.”

Jesus said they will kill him... The reason I believe he is Lord God Almighty and my christian faith is based on is he overcame death by being killed. If he never was killed then he was never resurrected. He may have allowed it...chose it...but they still killed him..

Many people have died or been killed and came back to life...but they died again. Jesus was killed...came back to his body in three days and ascended into heaven in his body even came back in a different body that is pretty impressive. Nobody has ever done that. That is why he is Lord God Almighty.

My faith comes in believing this actually happened. And he has the keys to heaven and hell. I want to live with him in Heaven and the new earth. And I even get a new body. It is exciting. That info keeps me joyful always.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

Jesus was not killed He chose when He would die. Those who were with Him took longer to die so their legs were broken to speed their death - they were killed. Jesus gave up His own spirit at His choosing.

Mark 9:31 because he was teaching his disciples. He said to them, “The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise.”

Jesus said they will kill him... The reason I believe he is Lord God Almighty and my christian faith is based on is he overcame death by being killed. If he never was killed then he was never resurrected. He may have allowed it...chose it...but they still killed him..

Many people have died or been killed and came back to life...but they died again. Jesus was killed...came back to his body in three days and ascended into heaven in his body even came back in a different body that is pretty impressive. Nobody has ever done that. That is why he is Lord God Almighty.

My faith comes in believing this actually happened. And he has the keys to heaven and hell. I want to live with him in Heaven and the new earth. And I even get a new body. It is exciting. That info keeps me joyful always.

 

 

From an observational point of view it appears that Jesus was killed.   But ultimately Jesus' death was a sacrifice of Himself.   Jesus' death was the product of man's efforts.  Jesus could hung on the cross for 100 years if He had wanted to and the Romans would not have been able to do anything about it.

 

In John 10, Jesus said that no man takes His life from Him, and that he gives it up of His own will. Jesus was not murdered, executed nor was he a martyr.   Jesus' death was a sacrifice.   When we attribute Jesus' death to any effort of man, we diminish its significance.   Jesus gave His life. No one took it from Him.

[almightyist]

Jesus was not killed He chose when He would die. Those who were with Him took longer to die so their legs were broken to speed their death - they were killed. Jesus gave up His own spirit at His choosing.

Mark 9:31 because he was teaching his disciples. He said to them, “The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise.”

Jesus said they will kill him... The reason I believe he is Lord God Almighty and my christian faith is based on is he overcame death by being killed. If he never was killed then he was never resurrected. He may have allowed it...chose it...but they still killed him..

Many people have died or been killed and came back to life...but they died again. Jesus was killed...came back to his body in three days and ascended into heaven in his body even came back in a different body that is pretty impressive. Nobody has ever done that. That is why he is Lord God Almighty.

My faith comes in believing this actually happened. And he has the keys to heaven and hell. I want to live with him in Heaven and the new earth. And I even get a new body. It is exciting. That info keeps me joyful always.

From an observational point of view it appears that Jesus was killed. But ultimately Jesus' death was a sacrifice of Himself. Jesus' death was the product of man's efforts. Jesus could hung on the cross for 100 years if He had wanted to and the Romans would not have been able to do anything about it.

In John 10, Jesus said that no man takes His life from Him, and that he gives it up of His own will. Jesus was not murdered, executed nor was he a martyr. Jesus' death was a sacrifice. When we attribute Jesus' death to any effort of man, we diminish its significance. Jesus gave His life. No one took it from Him.

That sounds like suicide. Jesus didn't sacrifice himself. Man sacrificed him. When they sacrificed lambs on the alter...did the lamb sacrifice itself...no....man sacrificed the lamb

Y did Jesus holler out y did you forsake me...to his father...Jesus was feeling forsaken by his own father...

it doesn't diminish anything for me...in fact it helps me understand the wrath of Almighty God. When you realize what innocent Jesus had to do for my sins...it brings me to tears...and he still forgives mankind...if they repent...if people are to proud to repent for what they did to Jesus they deserve the wrath...God chose to bring this sacrifice through his chosen people for all mankind....Jews slaughtered lamb after lamb for years...and they slaughtered the Lamb of God...for all of us...The whole world should get down on their knees and thank the Jews...they turned him over to the Romans for the ultimate sacrifice by mankind...otherwise friends and relatives...we were all heading to eternal damnation...

James 5:6 You have condemned and murdered the innocent one, who was not opposing you.

Edited February 6, 2014 by almightyist

[Littlelambseativy]

Because the Father is so holy that He cannot look at sin and since all the sin of the world from the beginning in the Garden of Eden to the time of the end was place on Jesus, the Father at that moment turned away from His beloved Son and Jesus saw that He was left alone to bear that  sin, cried out in anguish that even the Father had abandoned Him. Jesus being God had to lay down His own life for the sins of many it could not be taken from Him.

[other one]

Because the Father is so holy that He cannot look at sin and since all the sin of the world from the beginning in the Garden of Eden to the time of the end was place on Jesus, the Father at that moment turned away from His beloved Son and Jesus saw that He was left alone to bear that  sin, cried out in anguish that even the Father had abandoned Him. Jesus being God had to lay down His own life for the sins of many it could not be taken from Him.

and apparently just turned the sun off so the rest of nature wouldn't have to see.

[Littlelambseativy]

Because the Father is so holy that He cannot look at sin and since all the sin of the world from the beginning in the Garden of Eden to the time of the end was place on Jesus, the Father at that moment turned away from His beloved Son and Jesus saw that He was left alone to bear that sin, cried out in anguish that even the Father had abandoned Him. Jesus being God had to lay down His own life for the sins of many it could not be taken from Him.[/quote

and apparently just turned the sun off so the rest of nature wouldn't have to see.

The sun darkened could certainly account for athirst day ?? Jesus certainly felt and saw that the Father abandoned Him why else would He cry Father why hast Thou forsaken Me?