Creation models 101

[EnochBethany]

 

I really do not know what I believe anymore.  

 

I see all these arguments posted here (not this thread), quotes from creationist websites, and raw nerves resulting from the debates.  

 

For every point there is a counter point.  

 

Sometimes they both seem realistic, but I know that can't be the case.  

 

When my children and I discuss these things (we rarely do), I can only say that there is truth out there, but I'm not sure what it is.  

 

You can't bring up a doubting Thomas question easily

 

and not get assailed.

 

 

True History

 

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 1 Corinthians 15-21

 

Future History

 

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15-22

 

And The Root Of The Message Is Jesus

 

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

 

Whether Or Not

 

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:25-26

 

I Understand

 

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 1 John 3:1

 

It

 

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Galatians 4:6

 

~

 

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

 

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

 

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

 

Praying~!

 

You don't know what you believe?  I'll bet you will answer yes to the next question:

 

Do you know whom you believe in?

[Diatheosis]

Well, since I was not there when it happened, I can say it certainly happened as it did.

[Guest]

You don't know what you believe?  I'll bet you will answer yes to the next question:

 

Do you know whom you believe in?

 

 

True History

 

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 1 Corinthians 15-21

 

Future History

 

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15-22

 

And The Root Of The Message Is Jesus

 

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

 

Whether Or Not

 

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:25-26

 

I Understand

 

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 1 John 3:1

 

It

 

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Galatians 4:6

 

~

 

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

 

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

 

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

 

Praying~!

[gray wolf]

Sure!

[EnochBethany]

 

You don't know what you believe?  I'll bet you will answer yes to the next question:

 

Do you know whom you believe in?

 

 

Good verses, Joe

[Enoch2021]

 

 

===================================================

 

I read an article where the professor claimed to be an evolutionary Creationist,

 

Is that like an Immaterial Materialist?

 

 

I believe but perhaps it can best be summed up as a Command or Fiat day Creationist. Essentially it breaks down the structure of Genesis 1 as it is written in terms of "And God said" as the one and only operative, and what follows is explanatory.  The first prominent representation on each day did not involve God doing but only speaking, not making but commanding. It is noted that nothing further was necessary, what follows the fiat is explanation not further "doing".

 

Now just hold up for one cotton pickin minute.

 

Questions:

 

1.  What do you exactly mean by  "What follows is Explanatory"?

 

2.  Explain what you mean by "did not involve God doing but only speaking"?

 

The first prominent representation on each day did not involve God doing but only speaking, not making but commanding. It is noted that nothing further was necessary, what follows the fiat is explanation not further "doing".

 

In #2 above you said "did not Involve GOD doing"; here you said "not further doing"....implying there was some "doing" previously.  ??

 

Overall...is this some kind of an "evolution" scenario where GOD'S "fiat" was only that.... and the "doing" was by "Natural" processes @ some point in the future?

 

What are you gonna do with all the "And It was So's" right after all the "fiats"??

What are you gonna do with the bara's and asah's?

 

What's your thesis with Adam/Eve in your scenario?  Did they appear fully formed when GOD "fiat"-ed or some other process?

 

Thanks

[Tolken]

Enoch2021 -In #2 above you said "did not Involve GOD doing"; here you said "not further doing"....implying there was some "doing" previously.  ??

 

Yes, poor choice of words on my part.  "And God said" is clearly the sole and only activity of God, spoken commands. This is confirmed in various verses Psalm 33:6, Heb. 11:3 but it should be plain to one reading Gen. 1. If God's spoken command is all that is necessary to initiate the creative activities of each day then what follows the command must be explanatory. The command was all sufficient, was it not?

 

What are you gonna do with all the "And It was So's" right after all the "fiats"??

 

When God commands "It is so" there should be no doubt, not by me, that His pronouncement will be actualized. Clearly, in Gen. 1:24 the command was "Let the land produce living creatures" . What did "And it was so" indicate other then that the land was imbued by God to produce "living creatures...that is what the verse states. God commanded the "land", that He made ("asah") them is harmonized with the creative command but would be contradictory to that command if God needed further "effort" then that He spoke. The subject of the command is "land" if that was sufficient for the production of living creatures then obviously what follows can only be explanatory.

 

I will pick this up tomorrow...time to feed the horses and hit the sack.  Blessings.

[Enoch2021]

Enoch2021 -In #2 above you said "did not Involve GOD doing"; here you said "not further doing"....implying there was some "doing" previously.  ??

 

Yes, poor choice of words on my part.  "And God said" is clearly the sole and only activity of God, spoken commands. This is confirmed in various verses Psalm 33:6, Heb. 11:3 but it should be plain to one reading Gen. 1. If God's spoken command is all that is necessary to initiate the creative activities of each day then what follows the command must be explanatory. The command was all sufficient, was it not?

 

What are you gonna do with all the "And It was So's" right after all the "fiats"??

 

When God commands "It is so" there should be no doubt, not by me, that His pronouncement will be actualized. Clearly, in Gen. 1:24 the command was "Let the land produce living creatures" . What did "And it was so" indicate other then that the land was imbued by God to produce "living creatures...that is what the verse states. God commanded the "land", that He made ("asah") them is harmonized with the creative command but would be contradictory to that command if God needed further "effort" then that He spoke. The subject of the command is "land" if that was sufficient for the production of living creatures then obviously what follows can only be explanatory.

 

I will pick this up tomorrow...time to feed the horses and hit the sack.  Blessings.

 

 

=======================================================================

 

 

Please..., because I'm more confused now concerning your position than I was before.

 

If you would be so kind as to not provide a Thousand Word essay.  Could you list 5-6 Tenets and 2-5 supporting statements with each?  Thanks.

 

Because this is one of our first encounters (dealing directly with our beliefs), let me provide my position so there is no confusion on Where I Stand: with a Mission Statement.....

 

My Mission is not to prove how smart I am....or whether I'm right or not.  Just because that's the default intent of many peoples motivations or yours doesn't automatically equate or give anyone Carte Blanche authority to superimpose/assign those silly playground traits to me.

 

My Mission is in Two Parts:

1.  Defend The WORD of GOD

2.  A Personal Quest for Truth.

I do not Know everything (Obviously) If someone has a Concept or Idea that I am unfamiliar with....I will Shut UP, Listen, then Research it 6 ways from Sunday (Like Bereans).  If they have any postulates and can PROVE that it is TRUTH....THEN GREAT!!!!  I just learned something, the LORD has Blessed Me.  Why....

(1 Thessalonians 5:21) "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

So it's not personal with me but it is personal to the majority of people I come into contact with here; why?.....PRIDE.  Plain and Simple.  And GOD HATES IT!!!

I will not entertain it.

 

We debate these topics... Somewhat heated @ Times and most ask, why?....

 

There is much @ Stake!!, IMHO

 

 

Hope that helps....and should alleviate misunderstandings and limit/eliminate myriads of projected ill-conceived motives.

 

The floor is yours Sir

 

 

[Tolken]

Enoch2021 -If you would be so kind as to not provide a Thousand Word essay.  Could you list 5-6 Tenets and 2-5 supporting statements with each?

 

You are certainly asking alot of a person frequently characterized as loquacious, but I will try.

 

1. Each day of creation is begun not with God doing something but saying something ..."And God said".

    (The origin of everything by one cause...the Word of God.)

 

a. Genesis 1 has a consistent construction  -Command - accomplishment/fulfillment - activity after fullment - designated day.

 

b. Clearly "And God said" is the sole and only operative agent, God's command was the source of creation..

    (Gen. 1 - Psalm 33:6 - Heb 11:3 - 2 Peter 3:5)

 

c. If, as Genesis states, that "Let there be..."Let the land...""Let the waters..." is the lone and unique agent then statements following would by necessity be explanatory. (Otherwise one would need to show that God's Word/command was not the sufficient cause of creation)

 

d. "And God made..." statements are not the operative agent but an explanation of results.

 

e. God's commands do not necessitate complete fulfillment within each day.

    1.As an example Genesis 1:6,9,11,20,24 depict processes.

    2.Further example Gen. 1:24 avoids "And God said, Let there be living creatures." as do the other verses attached to days.

 

So in 6 days God commanded all of the "laws" for the incipient powers, elements, material, etc. as to the natural processes of phenomena to be produced, just as they are today.  Upon each fiat or command nothing more remained to be done. The time frames whether as science avers or otherwise finds the Genesis passage silent.

 

Hope this helps...at some point I will find all of my notes on this and various other topics...or not. As with you I have put a considerable amount of time in the study of this subject. Certainly I do not wish to impose my views, couldn't if I tried, and most assurdedly do not have all of the answers.  Blessings........... 

[Tolken]

Enoch2021 - As I researched Genesis/Creation information from innumerable sources I came to term myself, just love titles/labels, a Command Mediate Creationist.  I had maintained this view for a number of years when I came across Fredrick Hugh Capron.  Essentially Capron established the foundation for my present, and somewhat revised, former view.  It took awhile to recall his name but I found this, thankfully, if you are interested:

 

http://www.ibri.org/RRs/RR027/27creation.html

 

Blessings.....................