OEC and ID

[alphaparticle]

 

The text speaking for itself wants us to try to understand evening and morning without a sun and earth system. I really don't think there is a clear cut way to understand what that means. Why would we just assume a 24 hr cycle? Letting the text speak for itself, it introduces concepts that are defined by the rotation of the earth relative to the sun. That is just what morning and evening *are*. So when those concepts are used before these things are created I have to seriously question that a plain, straight forward reading of the text ought to lead to a 24 hr day interpretation.

 

 

The text speaking for itself wants us to try to understand evening and morning without a sun

 

Is there Precedence, that is to say....Is there any other place in Scripture where there is No "Light" from the Sun..... but there is "LIGHT"??

 

Sure, light. But my concern is with the very specific terminology, 'morning' and 'evening' which are concepts that are defined by the earth-sun system.

 

Gen 1:5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

 

These are terms introduced well before the description of creating the sun. I do not know that I would be justified in just assuming these are the standard 24 hr days we are used to-- because the 24 hr days are all about the rate of rotation with respect to the sun.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

The text speaking for itself wants us to try to understand evening and morning without a sun and earth system. I really don't think there is a clear cut way to understand what that means. Why would we just assume a 24 hr cycle? Letting the text speak for itself, it introduces concepts that are defined by the rotation of the earth relative to the sun. That is just what morning and evening *are*. So when those concepts are used before these things are created I have to seriously question that a plain, straight forward reading of the text ought to lead to a 24 hr day interpretation.

 

 

The text speaking for itself wants us to try to understand evening and morning without a sun

 

Is there Precedence, that is to say....Is there any other place in Scripture where there is No "Light" from the Sun..... but there is "LIGHT"??

 

Sure, light. But my concern is with the very specific terminology, 'morning' and 'evening' which are concepts that are defined by the earth-sun system.

 

Gen 1:5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

 

These are terms introduced well before the description of creating the sun. I do not know that I would be justified in just assuming these are the standard 24 hr days we are used to-- because the 24 hr days are all about the rate of rotation with respect to the sun.

 

 

 

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I do not know that I would be justified in just assuming these are the standard 24 hr days

 

Exodus 20:11 puts that issue to bed quite demonstrably.

 

Also...do you question how many days Jonah was in the Great Fish?   or

 

How many days the Israelite's marched around Jericho?

 

 

And there was evening and there was morning,

 

 

Now this is JUST MY OPINION  .......... I believe those two (Erev and Boker) refer to decreasing Entropy.  Why?  That's exactly what God was doing for the first 6 "Days"

 

AND

 

They are MISSING IN ACTION on the 7th DAY along with any reductions in Entropy....(HE Rested)

 

 

 

Also, if GOD was the Light before the SUN....couldn't HE control that "LIGHT"??

[alphaparticle]

 

 

 

The text speaking for itself wants us to try to understand evening and morning without a sun and earth system. I really don't think there is a clear cut way to understand what that means. Why would we just assume a 24 hr cycle? Letting the text speak for itself, it introduces concepts that are defined by the rotation of the earth relative to the sun. That is just what morning and evening *are*. So when those concepts are used before these things are created I have to seriously question that a plain, straight forward reading of the text ought to lead to a 24 hr day interpretation.

 

 

The text speaking for itself wants us to try to understand evening and morning without a sun

 

Is there Precedence, that is to say....Is there any other place in Scripture where there is No "Light" from the Sun..... but there is "LIGHT"??

 

Sure, light. But my concern is with the very specific terminology, 'morning' and 'evening' which are concepts that are defined by the earth-sun system.

 

Gen 1:5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

 

These are terms introduced well before the description of creating the sun. I do not know that I would be justified in just assuming these are the standard 24 hr days we are used to-- because the 24 hr days are all about the rate of rotation with respect to the sun.

 

 

 

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I do not know that I would be justified in just assuming these are the standard 24 hr days

 

Exodus 20:11 puts that issue to bed quite demonstrably.

 

Also...do you question how many days Jonah was in the Great Fish?   or

 

How many days the Israelite's marched around Jericho?

 

 

And there was evening and there was morning,

 

 

Now this is JUST MY OPINION  .......... I believe those two (Erev and Boker) refer to decreasing Entropy.  Why?  That's exactly what God was doing for the first 6 "Days"

 

AND

 

They are MISSING IN ACTION on the 7th DAY along with any reductions in Entropy....(HE Rested)

 

 

 

Also, if GOD was the Light before the SUN....couldn't HE control that "LIGHT"??

 

I don't think those verses put this to bed at all. Those references, Jonah for example, were *after* the sun-earth system was already established. We are talking about before the talk about the creation of the sun at all, and use of those terms. I don't think we can assume we can apply them in the same way to a situation which is radically different-- and it is.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

 

The text speaking for itself wants us to try to understand evening and morning without a sun and earth system. I really don't think there is a clear cut way to understand what that means. Why would we just assume a 24 hr cycle? Letting the text speak for itself, it introduces concepts that are defined by the rotation of the earth relative to the sun. That is just what morning and evening *are*. So when those concepts are used before these things are created I have to seriously question that a plain, straight forward reading of the text ought to lead to a 24 hr day interpretation.

 

 

The text speaking for itself wants us to try to understand evening and morning without a sun

 

Is there Precedence, that is to say....Is there any other place in Scripture where there is No "Light" from the Sun..... but there is "LIGHT"??

 

Sure, light. But my concern is with the very specific terminology, 'morning' and 'evening' which are concepts that are defined by the earth-sun system.

 

Gen 1:5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

 

These are terms introduced well before the description of creating the sun. I do not know that I would be justified in just assuming these are the standard 24 hr days we are used to-- because the 24 hr days are all about the rate of rotation with respect to the sun.

 

 

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I do not know that I would be justified in just assuming these are the standard 24 hr days

 

Exodus 20:11 puts that issue to bed quite demonstrably.

 

Also...do you question how many days Jonah was in the Great Fish?   or

 

How many days the Israelite's marched around Jericho?

 

 

And there was evening and there was morning,

 

 

Now this is JUST MY OPINION  .......... I believe those two (Erev and Boker) refer to decreasing Entropy.  Why?  That's exactly what God was doing for the first 6 "Days"

 

AND

 

They are MISSING IN ACTION on the 7th DAY along with any reductions in Entropy....(HE Rested)

 

 

 

Also, if GOD was the Light before the SUN....couldn't HE control that "LIGHT"??

 

I don't think those verses put this to bed at all. Those references, Jonah for example, were *after* the sun-earth system was already established. We are talking about before the talk about the creation of the sun at all, and use of those terms. I don't think we can assume we can apply them in the same way to a situation which is radically different-- and it is.

 

 

Alpha...don't muddy the waters here.  The Jonah and Jericho references were used as an example of "nobody is questioning those days"

 

EXODUS 20:11 is THE BIG DADDY.....

 

(Exodus 20:11) "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

 

Is there ANY MORE CLEAR WAY GOD could have said it ????!!!!

 

Now, I don't think any person can give a YES answer to that question without compromising their Integrity....Intellectually or otherwise.

[alphaparticle]

 

 

 

 

 

The text speaking for itself wants us to try to understand evening and morning without a sun and earth system. I really don't think there is a clear cut way to understand what that means. Why would we just assume a 24 hr cycle? Letting the text speak for itself, it introduces concepts that are defined by the rotation of the earth relative to the sun. That is just what morning and evening *are*. So when those concepts are used before these things are created I have to seriously question that a plain, straight forward reading of the text ought to lead to a 24 hr day interpretation.

 

 

The text speaking for itself wants us to try to understand evening and morning without a sun

 

Is there Precedence, that is to say....Is there any other place in Scripture where there is No "Light" from the Sun..... but there is "LIGHT"??

 

Sure, light. But my concern is with the very specific terminology, 'morning' and 'evening' which are concepts that are defined by the earth-sun system.

 

Gen 1:5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

 

These are terms introduced well before the description of creating the sun. I do not know that I would be justified in just assuming these are the standard 24 hr days we are used to-- because the 24 hr days are all about the rate of rotation with respect to the sun.

 

 

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I do not know that I would be justified in just assuming these are the standard 24 hr days

 

Exodus 20:11 puts that issue to bed quite demonstrably.

 

Also...do you question how many days Jonah was in the Great Fish?   or

 

How many days the Israelite's marched around Jericho?

 

 

And there was evening and there was morning,

 

 

Now this is JUST MY OPINION  .......... I believe those two (Erev and Boker) refer to decreasing Entropy.  Why?  That's exactly what God was doing for the first 6 "Days"

 

AND

 

They are MISSING IN ACTION on the 7th DAY along with any reductions in Entropy....(HE Rested)

 

 

 

Also, if GOD was the Light before the SUN....couldn't HE control that "LIGHT"??

 

I don't think those verses put this to bed at all. Those references, Jonah for example, were *after* the sun-earth system was already established. We are talking about before the talk about the creation of the sun at all, and use of those terms. I don't think we can assume we can apply them in the same way to a situation which is radically different-- and it is.

 

 

Alpha...don't muddy the waters here.  The Jonah and Jericho references were used as an example of "nobody is questioning those days"

 

EXODUS 20:11 is THE BIG DADDY.....

 

(Exodus 20:11) "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

 

Is there ANY MORE CLEAR WAY GOD could have said it ????!!!!

 

Now, I don't think any person can give a YES answer to that question without compromising their Integrity....Intellectually or otherwise.

 

I'm not muddying the waters at all. In Gen 1 the days are defined by morning and evenings *before the sun was created*. Given that circumstance, I do not think you can naively assume that these are 24 hr periods, as 24 hr periods are contingent on the rotation of the earth with respect to the sun. I have to say, I am not convinced.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

Alpha...don't muddy the waters here.  The Jonah and Jericho references were used as an example of "nobody is questioning those days"

 

EXODUS 20:11 is THE BIG DADDY.....

 

(Exodus 20:11) "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

 

Is there ANY MORE CLEAR WAY GOD could have said it ????!!!!

 

Now, I don't think any person can give a YES answer to that question without compromising their Integrity....Intellectually or otherwise.

 

I'm not muddying the waters at all. In Gen 1 the days are defined by morning and evenings *before the sun was created*. Given that circumstance, I do not think you can naively assume that these are 24 hr periods, as 24 hr periods are contingent on the rotation of the earth with respect to the sun. I have to say, I am not convinced.

 

 

ALPHA......

 

(Exodus 20:11) "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

 

 

 

What's left so say Sir

 

??????

[alphaparticle]

 

 

 

Alpha...don't muddy the waters here.  The Jonah and Jericho references were used as an example of "nobody is questioning those days"

 

EXODUS 20:11 is THE BIG DADDY.....

 

(Exodus 20:11) "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

 

Is there ANY MORE CLEAR WAY GOD could have said it ????!!!!

 

Now, I don't think any person can give a YES answer to that question without compromising their Integrity....Intellectually or otherwise.

 

I'm not muddying the waters at all. In Gen 1 the days are defined by morning and evenings *before the sun was created*. Given that circumstance, I do not think you can naively assume that these are 24 hr periods, as 24 hr periods are contingent on the rotation of the earth with respect to the sun. I have to say, I am not convinced.

 

 

ALPHA......

 

(Exodus 20:11) "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

 

 

 

What's left so say Sir

 

??????

 

I read this verse before. Increasing the font and bolding stuff doesn't increase my reading comprehension. You aren't addressing my concern.

 

I do not think you can naively assume a 24 hr day applies conceptually to a time before the sun exists when 24 hr days, mornings and evenings are *defined by* the earth-sun system. 'Day' could very well mean something else when applied to that era.. and maybe should.

[nebula]

That is a good point.  But God says in both Exodus 20:11 and Exodus 31:17 that He created the heavens and earth in six days.   How would the original audience at Mt. Sinai have understood those comments?  

 

There was only one eyewitness to creation and He doesn't make mistakes and never misspeaks.  So when He says He made the heavens and earth in six days, is He, who is all-knowing and all-powerful, hamstrung by the fact that there was no sun by which to mark off a "day" as we know it?  There was darkness and light, as well as morning and evening; so there were modifers in the text that tell us what "day" meant.  Again, that is how "literal" works.  You let the text speak for itself.

Well, I disagree.

 

And I know you have the Hebrew knowledge under your belt to prove your point, but I have heard from two different rabbis that the text does not have to be interpreted as 6 24-hour days, and both offered their different explanations for how to reconcile what the Bible says with what the science says (and vice versa).

 

So who is more correct?

 

Well, you know the old joke - give 10 Jews a topic to discuss and hear 11 different opinions.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

That is a good point.  But God says in both Exodus 20:11 and Exodus 31:17 that He created the heavens and earth in six days.   How would the original audience at Mt. Sinai have understood those comments?  

 

There was only one eyewitness to creation and He doesn't make mistakes and never misspeaks.  So when He says He made the heavens and earth in six days, is He, who is all-knowing and all-powerful, hamstrung by the fact that there was no sun by which to mark off a "day" as we know it?  There was darkness and light, as well as morning and evening; so there were modifers in the text that tell us what "day" meant.  Again, that is how "literal" works.  You let the text speak for itself.

Well, I disagree.

 

And I know you have the Hebrew knowledge under your belt to prove your point, but I have heard from two different rabbis that the text does not have to be interpreted as 6 24-hour days, and both offered their different explanations for how to reconcile what the Bible says with what the science says (and vice versa).

 

So who is more correct?

 

Well, you know the old joke - give 10 Jews a topic to discuss and hear 11 different opinions.

 

Which Rabbis?    What precisely were their explanations and were their explanations pertaining to Genesis 1, or Exodus 20:11 & 31:17?

 

Knowing Hebrew and performing good exegesis are not the same thing.  It's just knowing the Hebrew. It's about knowing how to handle the text both exegetically and theologically.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

 

Alpha...don't muddy the waters here.  The Jonah and Jericho references were used as an example of "nobody is questioning those days"

 

EXODUS 20:11 is THE BIG DADDY.....

 

(Exodus 20:11) "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

 

Is there ANY MORE CLEAR WAY GOD could have said it ????!!!!

 

Now, I don't think any person can give a YES answer to that question without compromising their Integrity....Intellectually or otherwise.

 

I'm not muddying the waters at all. In Gen 1 the days are defined by morning and evenings *before the sun was created*. Given that circumstance, I do not think you can naively assume that these are 24 hr periods, as 24 hr periods are contingent on the rotation of the earth with respect to the sun. I have to say, I am not convinced.

 

 

ALPHA......

 

(Exodus 20:11) "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

 

 

 

What's left so say Sir

 

??????

 

I read this verse before. Increasing the font and bolding stuff doesn't increase my reading comprehension. You aren't addressing my concern.

 

I do not think you can naively assume a 24 hr day applies conceptually to a time before the sun exists when 24 hr days, mornings and evenings are *defined by* the earth-sun system. 'Day' could very well mean something else when applied to that era.. and maybe should.

 

 

I already did addressed your concerns but you didn't answer the simple question. 

 

I will end this....Valentine's Day Dinner with the Misses

 

 

Let me add one final thought:  Don't miss the Forrest through the Trees Sir