A little freaked out

[Willa]

Rom. 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of who they have not heard? . We must believe in order to call on God for forgiveness. Heb 11:6 But without faith it unpossible to please Him, for he who comes to God MUST BELIEVE THAT HE IS, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

First we believe that He is and that He personally hears us. But when the Holy Spirit comes to us He convicts of sin, righteousness and judgement. That is when we start to hate our sinful lifestyle and turn to Christ for forgiveness. This alone is repentance. It is a change of attitude. John the Baptist was yelling at the pharasees to produce fruit worthy of repentance. Matt. 3:8. The fruit is the WORKS that FOLLOW repentance. Again, both saving faith and repentance (changing our minds about sin and turning to Christ for forgiveness) are GRANTED by God. A grant is a gift usually based on need. A schollarship is based on merit. God grants us faith and repentance because we need them.

However, we are saved that we may bear fruit. Eph. 2:10 For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Or else we get called a brood of vipers by John the Baptist! lol. When we abide in Christ we cannot help but bear fruit. It comes naturally and effortless with the life of Christ flowing through us and as our attitudes, motives and desires change. Usually we are unaware of it. When we TRY to bear fruit it is self effort which will not be rewarded or we will have no reason to cast our crowns before Christ.--we will think we actually earned them. I do not believe believe that anyone is perfect on earth but Christ. Following Christ is like a treasure hunt--one step at a time. When we obey we get another clue. It is an adventure with challanges and surprise. It is never boring. Even when it is trusting God during root canals.

[ajchurney]

Lordship salvation is NOT the belief that you have to stop sinning as a pre-condition for salvation.  Repentance from sin is part of accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior.   When we accept Jesus, we are accepting Him as Savior AND Lord.   The Bible says that God is calling on all people to repent.  Repentance is our response to the Gospel.  The first thing we should do is repent of our sin, turn from our sin and turn to Jesus.

 

Lordship salvation is about there being a changed life when we are saved.  If a person claims to be a Christian but doesn't bear the fruit of repentance, if there isn't a change, and a sincere desire to serve the Lord, such a person needs to reexamine the authenticity of their profession of faith.

 

No one has to be perfect and submitted to God in every area of their life in order to get saved, but there should be a daily desire to continue surrendering to Jesus as Lord.  If one rejects Jesus as Lord, there is a strong likelihood, they never got saved.   Jesus Saviorship and Lordship are a "package deal" so to speak.  You can't receive Him as Savior and reject Him as Lord.

I agree with Shiloh. My understanding is that Lordship Salvation is a response to cheap grace theology, also known as easy-believism. I did not think that simple Lordship salvational teaching includes works-based salvation or sanctification. If it does, I do not believe in that aspect. What I do believe is that Jesus is not your savior if He is not your Lord. The idea here is that Jesus is most certainly the Master, Lord, King, and God over every man. One must recognize this in order to understand who it is that died for you and why his blood is worth enough to pay for the sins of all mankind! It is not enough to just believe in propositional truths of the historic earthly life and death and resurrection of Jesus. We must place our trust (faith) in Him and Him alone as the way, truth and life. His Lordship over all creation and over each of us as individuals is not a negotiable point. Every knee must bow and every tongue confess that.......JESUS IS LORD!!! Bowing the knee is humbly submitting to your Boss, your Master, your King, your Lord.

The beauty of the New Covenant is that Jesus will put the Spirit inside of he who submits to Him, in order to both inform and empower that person. The law was good, but it lacked this ability to give essential grace, and Jesus made a way for us to live and walk pleasing to him by the Spirit! God now works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure. This is empowering grace! The hook is that this grace is available only through submitting to Him, not by merely admitting that Jesus is real (the demons do that...and shudder at the thought!)

If there are forms of Lordship salvation teaching that go beyond this and preach a series of works in order to be saved, I would oppose that. Recognizing Jesus as the Lord of the universe and bowing your knee (surrendering to Him) is NOT a "work"!!! Neither is repenting of your filthy sinfulness, or asking Christ to forgive you. These are responses of the conscience and heart which Jesus repeatedly commanded people to have towards Him, not works. If we call these "works", we are getting into hyper-calvinism and error.

He is Lord and I am not!!

Andy

[*Zion*]

I agree with Shiloh. My understanding is that Lordship Salvation is a response to cheap grace theology, also known as easy-believism. I did not think that simple Lordship salvational teaching includes works-based salvation or sanctification. If it does, I do not believe in that aspect. What I do believe is that Jesus is not your savior if He is not your Lord. The idea here is that Jesus is most certainly the Master, Lord, King, and God over every man. One must recognize this in order to understand who it is that died for you and why his blood is worth enough to pay for the sins of all mankind!

 

I totally agree with everything in your post, but I have highlighted that which I was trying to express in my original post.  Thanks for saying it right, brother! 

[alphaparticle]

I admit I find the discussion here confusing. IF it is the case that Jesus alone saves us, and through this particular faith, then those are the necessary and sufficient conditions. I don't think anyone would contest that fruits of the Spirit would follow, including repentance from sins over time.

 

But if everyone agrees about that, what is so unique about 'lordship salvation'? Why even invent the term?

[ajchurney]

I admit I find the discussion here confusing. IF it is the case that Jesus alone saves us, and through this particular faith, then those are the necessary and sufficient conditions. I don't think anyone would contest that fruits of the Spirit would follow, including repentance from sins over time.

 

But if everyone agrees about that, what is so unique about 'lordship salvation'? Why even invent the term?

Did u catch my post, alpha? The term was in response to the amazing glut of cheap grace theology and evangelism that has run amok in recent decades. Unfortunately, we all do NOT agree on soteriology (the doctrines of salvation)

[alphaparticle]

 

I admit I find the discussion here confusing. IF it is the case that Jesus alone saves us, and through this particular faith, then those are the necessary and sufficient conditions. I don't think anyone would contest that fruits of the Spirit would follow, including repentance from sins over time.

 

But if everyone agrees about that, what is so unique about 'lordship salvation'? Why even invent the term?

Did u catch my post, alpha? The term was in response to the amazing glut of cheap grace theology and evangelism that has run amok in recent decades. Unfortunately, we all do NOT agree on soteriology (the doctrines of salvation)

 

grace is free for us though. I don't see how you can make it 'cheap'er than that.

[ajchurney]

 

 

I admit I find the discussion here confusing. IF it is the case that Jesus alone saves us, and through this particular faith, then those are the necessary and sufficient conditions. I don't think anyone would contest that fruits of the Spirit would follow, including repentance from sins over time.

 

But if everyone agrees about that, what is so unique about 'lordship salvation'? Why even invent the term?

Did u catch my post, alpha? The term was in response to the amazing glut of cheap grace theology and evangelism that has run amok in recent decades. Unfortunately, we all do NOT agree on soteriology (the doctrines of salvation)

 

grace is free for us though. I don't see how you can make it 'cheap'er than that.

 

Grace is certainly freely given, in the sense that you cannot earn it through merit, through good works. You also can't pay for that grace because it is too costly, it is worth far too much for you or I to obtain it, except that it is bestowed upon us without our paying the debt. That grace cost Jesus an incredibly gruesome, painful death, and that he bore our sins upon himself on the cross (not sure any of us can really imagine that horror!). The condition for receiving this grace is trust in Christ as your personal Lord and worthy of the surrender of your life to Him. Jesus repeatedly exhorted people to "count the cost" of following after Him, and stated point blank that if you loved anyone, even your own life more than you love Him, you cannot be His disciple. The cost of following Jesus is your life, Jesus made this abundantly clear. It is the only thing you can actually give Him. Everything else is on loan from Him and you are just a steward of it anyways! Surrendering to Jesus unconditionally is His terms of engagement with him, and not a "work". Cheap grace is about telling people that God requires nothing of you except that you "believe in" Jesus. Cheap grace ignores the "count the cost" sermons of Jesus Himself, and jumps straight to an offer of salvation in exchange for agreeing that Jesus existed and died on the cross to erase your sins for no commitment from you whatsoever. Without recognizing Jesus as your Master and committing to follow his ways (this is what it means to count the cost, along with the possible rejection of yourself by everyone you know!) there is no salvation.

Many people skip over the hard sayings of Jesus, cherry-pick some verses out of the letters, and call it good. They all go together!!! ALL of the verses pertaining to salvation and faith in Christ are inspired and weighty, not just the ones we like the most, and seem to require the least! Isn't it just like spoiled modern Americans (I am one in the flesh, but not in the spirit) to try to get something for nothing, to search the bible to try to find a way to rip God off by gaining Heaven for the slightest commitment to God Almighty?!? Our works apart from divine grace are filthy rags, but one thing we can do is surrender to him and commit to serve Him as He gives us the strength, knowledge, and even the will to do it! We must be informed by the WHOLE COUNSEL of the word of God, and not be proof texting cherry-pickers!

Edited February 20, 2014 by ajchurney

[alphaparticle]

 

 

 

I admit I find the discussion here confusing. IF it is the case that Jesus alone saves us, and through this particular faith, then those are the necessary and sufficient conditions. I don't think anyone would contest that fruits of the Spirit would follow, including repentance from sins over time.

 

But if everyone agrees about that, what is so unique about 'lordship salvation'? Why even invent the term?

Did u catch my post, alpha? The term was in response to the amazing glut of cheap grace theology and evangelism that has run amok in recent decades. Unfortunately, we all do NOT agree on soteriology (the doctrines of salvation)

 

grace is free for us though. I don't see how you can make it 'cheap'er than that.

 

Grace is certainly freely given, in the sense that you cannot earn it through merit, through good works. You also can't pay for that grace because it is too costly, it is worth far too much for you or I to obtain it, except that it is bestowed upon us without our paying the debt. That grace cost Jesus an incredibly gruesome, painful death, and that he bore our sins upon himself on the cross (not sure any of us can really imagine that horror!). The condition for receiving this grace is trust in Christ as your personal Lord and worthy of the surrender of your life to Him. Jesus repeatedly exhorted people to "count the cost" of following after Him, and stated point blank that if you loved anyone, even your own life more than you love Him, you cannot be His disciple. The cost of following Jesus is your life, Jesus made this abundantly clear. It is the only thing you can actually give Him. Everything else is on loan from Him and you are just a steward of it anyways! Surrendering to Jesus unconditionally is His terms of engagement with him, and not a "work". Cheap grace is about telling people that God requires nothing of you except that you "believe in" Jesus. Cheap grace ignores the "count the cost" sermons of Jesus Himself, and jumps straight to an offer of salvation in exchange for agreeing that Jesus existed and died on the cross to erase your sins for no commitment from you whatsoever. Without recognizing Jesus as your Master and committing to follow his ways (this is what it means to count the cost, along with the possible rejection of yourself by everyone you know!) there is no salvation.

Many people skip over the hard sayings of Jesus, cherry-pick some verses out of the letters, and call it good. They all go together!!! ALL of the verses pertaining to salvation and faith in Christ are inspired and weighty, not just the ones we like the most, and seem to require the least! Isn't it just like spoiled modern Americans (I am one in the flesh, but not in the spirit) to try to get something for nothing, to search the bible to try to find a way to rip God off by gaining Heaven for the slightest commitment to God Almighty?!? Our works apart from divine grace are filthy rags, but one thing we can do is surrender to him and commit to serve Him as He gives us the strength, knowledge, and even the will to do it! We must be informed by the WHOLE COUNSEL of the word of God, and not be proof texting cherry-pickers!

 

We are either saved by God or not right? Seems like you could cause a lot of unnecessary soul wrenching trying to figure out if you've 'surrended' enough. We will live with sin (re 1 john for example) until we die.

 

gal 5:17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.

 

Anyway, I still don't get why there should be an extra category introduced here, or what the extra complication is for.

[SandyU]

I have met people who don't think it matters who Jesus is. They believe he is a person like buddha. But they believe he existed and like his words. They believe they are saved by his dying on the cross, and they don't think they have to change any ungodly behavior. I think this is an example of this lordship or cheap grace.

Believing in Jesus according to who Jesus said he was saves us. The Holy Spirit can then change you. Repentance is a part of that and required from time to time until death. Because we are sinners and need to recognize this.

[alphaparticle]

I don't think it's *we* who changes so much as the Spirit who then lives in us changes us.

 

rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.