The rapture theory: True or false?

[EnochBethany]

 

Hi guys, what I read in the link am about to show you will shock you concerning the author's view of the rapture. http://www.end-times-prophecy.org/rapture-theory-false.html.

Pls check the link and let me know what you all think.

I an left wondering what your thoughts are on this? You never indicated what they are.

 

Re that author's Rapture claims:

 

Having visited a famous Rapture site on YouTube, I have seen many denials of the doctrine over the years.  It is variously blamed on a crazy Scottish girl, a Jesuit plot, and on JN Darby.  But Shepherd of Hermas seems to speak of not going thru the Trib, while a text associated with the name of Ephraem (possibly Pseudo-Ephraem) stated

"For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."  This text has been dated 8th century or earlier.

 

Also that author speaks of the "End of the World," which is an oft used misnomer for "Consummation of the Age."

 

Good Christians may debate the timing of the Rapture, but it is a Bible fact as in 1 Thes 4:17 harpagēsometha = we shall be raptured. (Raptured = caught up.)

[EnochBethany]

God the Father is the only one who knows when the His Son/Bridegroom will come for His Bride (Rapture)  Matt 24:26

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Yes indeed; only God knows, though we are to expect Him all the time at any time per James 5.  But Mat 24 has no Rapture & not Church.  No one in Mat 24 is caught up for a meeting in the air with the Lord Jesus. (The Rapture is the great CatchUp -- no mustard allowed).  But you make a good point on not knowing.  I tired in vain over & over with a Camping date-setter (May 21, 2011; then Oct 21, 2011) to impress on him that Mark 13 twice says, "You do not know when."

 

Of course not knowing when the Second Coming is to take place does not mean that we may not decide the most probable ordering of the events.

[ENOCH2010]

 

Big problem with the pre-trib doctrine   No resurrection of the saints prior to the second coming of Christ, ( per Rev. :20) 

 

 

Above courtesy of the Holy Bible

 

 

Love the Screen Name

 

Which Saints ?

 

The dead in Christ

[EnochBethany]

 

Brother Argosy,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I do not see as you do.

First, let's look at 1 thess 5:

1Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

4But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

Spock's thoughts: the day of The Lord will come like a thief during peaceful times. There is no peace during the great trib. Honestly, this one thing should end any conversation about a post trib rapture.

Paul even said you do NOT EVEN NEED TO KNOW ABOUT THESE DATES. Why? Because you won't be here before it begins. we do not belong to the night, for God did not appoint us to suffer wrath. I believe the wrath he is referencing here is the day of The Lord judgment. Comfort yourself with these words. What words? You won't be here during that because you don't belong to the darkness.

Now let's look at 1 thess 4:

13Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Spock's thoughts: this coming of The Lord is the rapture, not second coming. Jesus is telling these church saints to be encouraged LOOKING FOR HIM, NOT FOR ANTICHRIST. my post trib brothers are looking for antichrist first, not Christ. Tsk tsk. No comfort in that. This trumpet call is not related to the rev 8 trumpets and there is nothing that says it has to be. You need to study Jewish literature to get the meaning on this. Notice, the DEAD IN CHRIST (church age saints, not OT BELIEVERS) will rise first. Then the living believers go up next. ENCOURAGE ONE ANOTHER WITH THESE WORDS- what kind of encouragement would it be if all these people had to wait for the great trib with all the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments to look forward to? Answer-none.

In fact, many trib saints will be slaughtered because they will hold on to their belief in Jesus and will not take the mark of the beast. Does that sound like something to be encouraged by? Do you think watching your children or loved ones being killed is encouraging?

One more thing my friend-God rescued Noah, did he not, before judgment? God rescued Lot before judgment, did he not? Just like them will he not do the same for the church? Please read rev 2 and 3 again. You may find pearls of wisdom in these admonition so to the 7 CHURCHES., especially to the church of Philadelphia. Good luck bro.

Spock watching and waiting for CHRIST, NOT FOR ANTICHRIST

 

 

Spock Spock

 

I LOVE IT!!!!

 

You actually surprised me with the majority of your Post....nearly fell off the chair!!

 

The Third Person References were Alarming....but completed the motif  LOL 

 

 

Spock's thoughts: the day of The Lord will come like a thief during peaceful times. There is no peace during the great trib. Honestly, this one thing should end any conversation about a post trib rapture.

 

YEP.  It's called The Doctrine of Imminence.  There is no proceeding event...and believers are taught to conduct their lives in a moment to moment expectancy of Our Coming KING; its all through the NT (Phil 3:20; Titus 2:13; Heb 9:28; 1 Thess 1:10; 4:18, 5:6, Rev 22:20). 

 

Basically all positions (Mid-Trib, Pre-Wrath-Post Trib) besides Pre-Trib, deny the Doctrine of Imminence.

 

 

An understanding of a Jewish Wedding (Jesus and HIS Bride "The Church") should be reckoned with here, IMHO.....

 

The Ketubah, Betrothal

 

- Payment of the Purchase Price  

- Bride Set Apart (Sanctified)        

 

- Bridegroom departs to Father's House

- Prepares a Room Addition

**  Bride Prepares for IMMINENT Return (But She does not know WHEN)

 

-  Surprise Gathering  (See example with the 10 Virgins Parable)

-  Grooms arrival is Proceeded by a SHOUT

 

- Wedding

- 7 Day Marriage Supper

 

What's that Look Like??  :rolleyes:    A Model, Maybe 

 

 

The Post Trib Rapture Model...... Come lets get Married; then, I'm gonna beat the Living Daylights out of You,  then lets go have Dinner 

 

(Luke 12:40) " Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

If there was a proceeding event in Scripture then this statement is of null effect.

 

7 (Shocking surprise) "Raptures" in Scripture

 

Enoch 

Elijah

Jesus

Philip

Paul

Body of Christ

John (Rev 4:1)

 

There is no peace during the great trib.

Very Good and you were almost there.  You Have the Tribulation in 2 Parts separated by 3 1/2 Years.  The Tribulation as a the Whole 7 Years and The GREAT TRIBULATION (quoted by Jesus from Daniel 12) which initiates the last 3 1/2 Years beginning with the Abomination of Desolation.

 

That is Identified in Scripture and is a PROCEEDING EVENT.  The Rapture MUST occur before this event or it contradicts dozen of Scriptures.

 

Christs Second Coming is also in 2 Phases:  The Rapture (Gathers His Bride) and Again for Israel

 

 

The Last 4 verses of Daniel Chapter 9 are the Key to End Time Prophecy.... and this is also echoed by Christ in the Olivet Discourse.

 

Daniel 9:27  The 70th Week..... Detailed in Revelation 6: 19

 

 

Also Remember:  There are 2 Missions......  The Church and Israel

 

The Church is not appointed for GOD's Wrath.....(1 Thessalonians 5:9) "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"  and (Revelation 3:10) " Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

 

TYPES:

 

Enoch and The Food of Noah.

 

Isaac's absence after his offer offering..... curiously, he's edited out of Scripture until 2 chapters later when he's United with His Bride.  (Check This)

 

Where was Ruth (Gentile Bride) during the Threshing Floor Scene?

 

Daniel's absence from the Fiery Furnace.

 

 

OT References:

 

(Isaiah 26:20-21) "Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.  {21} For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain."

 

(Zephaniah 2:3) "Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger."

 

(Psalms 27:5) "For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock."

 

 

Post Trib Problems:

 

1.  Denies The Doctrine of Imminence

2.  Requires the Church to be here During the 70th Week (Israel and The Church are Mutually Exclusive, Dan 9: 24)

3.  The Church experiences GOD'S Wrath

4.  How can the Bride (Church) come with Jesus if she's not Raptured First?

5.  Who's going to populate the Millennium?

6.  Who are the "Sheep and Goat" Judgement?  (Matthew 25)

7.  How can the Virgin's of Matthew 25 buy oil without the mark of the beast?

 

Last Point:  Revelation.....

 

The Seven Churches (The Seven Lampstands):  Identifies the Church Rev 1:20

 

They are on the Earth in Chapter 1.  They are in Heaven when John Arrives Chapter 4:5

 

One Church Promised not to go into the Great Tribulation.

 

The 24 Elders

 

-  Identified as the Redeemed (Rev 5: 9,10)

-  only three are Identified as Kings and Priests (Melchizedek, Jesus, and the Redeemed......US )

- They worship the Lamb before he receives the Scroll

- Tribulation begins when the Scroll is Unsealed

 

 

** The majority above courtesy of Dr. Chuck Missler **

 

I have trouble knowing who said what, but someone listed 7 raptures.  Let me advise to Read Rev 11 and see if you should add to the total!

[Enoch2021]

 

 

But the bible which is the word of God says that Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the Son of Man will be revealed in the clouds with a great trumpet sound and the gathering of the elect from the four winds of heaven. Also, the harvest of Revelation 14 might take place after the advent of the Antichrist in which he succeeds in bringing peace to the Middle East or Israel.

 

 

Well you have to understand the Purpose of Tribulation and that Tribulation is in 2 Parts of 3 1/2 years each.  The last 3 1/2 years, beginning with the Abomination of Desolation, was referred to by Jesus as THE GREAT TRIBULATION.

 

The Purpose is to Drive Israel to the Wall and bring about Hosea 5:

 

(Hosea 5:15) "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

 

I believe the "After" part is for the Jewish Remnant.

 

Anyone else have any thoughts on the matter?

 

1) "But the bible which is the word of God says that Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the Son of Man will be revealed in the clouds with a great trumpet sound and the gathering of the elect from the four winds of heaven."

 

You refer to the Olivet Discourse (Mat 24 & parallels).  In Mat 24 there is no Church & no Rapture.  There is no gathering of the elect to a meeting in the air to take them to Heaven (see 1 Thes 4 & John 14).  If the 2nd coming of Mat 24 were the Rapture, the Rapture would have to be after the Tribulation, for the 2nd coming there is after the trib.  But Mat 24 is about Israel & the Nations, not the Church.

 

2) The Purpose of the Tribulation.  Actually the Tribulation in the Bible is the Great Tribulation of 3 1/2 years; however, in popular Chr speech, "trib" means Daniel's 70th week of Dan 9.  I believe the Gt Trib is also the Time of Jacob's Trouble; so it has a special relation to Israel.  But also, it appears to me that the trib is the time of greatest salvation since earth was created.  A huge multitude of persons, even Gentiles, are saved in that time period, & at the end comes Israel's national salvation.  So I conclude that the Lord graciously puts the screws on mankind in hopes that they will repent & be saved.

 

 

 

 

Big problem with the pre-trib doctrine   No resurrection of the saints prior to the second coming of Christ, ( per Rev. :20) 

 

 

Above courtesy of the Holy Bible

 

 

Love the Screen Name

 

Which Saints ?

 

The dead in Christ

 

 

 

Yes but this is the Great White Throne Judgement after the Millennium.  Not sure how and or why you're connecting it to Pre-Trib.

[OneLight]

 

 

Hi guys, what I read in the link am about to show you will shock you concerning the author's view of the rapture. http://www.end-times-prophecy.org/rapture-theory-false.html.

Pls check the link and let me know what you all think.

I an left wondering what your thoughts are on this? You never indicated what they are.

 

Re that author's Rapture claims:

 

Having visited a famous Rapture site on YouTube, I have seen many denials of the doctrine over the years.  It is variously blamed on a crazy Scottish girl, a Jesuit plot, and on JN Darby.  But Shepherd of Hermas seems to speak of not going thru the Trib, while a text associated with the name of Ephraem (possibly Pseudo-Ephraem) stated

"For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."  This text has been dated 8th century or earlier.

 

Also that author speaks of the "End of the World," which is an oft used misnomer for "Consummation of the Age."

 

Good Christians may debate the timing of the Rapture, but it is a Bible fact as in 1 Thes 4:17 harpagēsometha = we shall be raptured. (Raptured = caught up.)

 

Thanks Enoch for you take, but I was inquiring to what where Kingdomwitness thoughts on the subject. 

[Enoch2021]

 

 

But the bible which is the word of God says that Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the Son of Man will be revealed in the clouds with a great trumpet sound and the gathering of the elect from the four winds of heaven. Also, the harvest of Revelation 14 might take place after the advent of the Antichrist in which he succeeds in bringing peace to the Middle East or Israel.

 

 

Well you have to understand the Purpose of Tribulation and that Tribulation is in 2 Parts of 3 1/2 years each.  The last 3 1/2 years, beginning with the Abomination of Desolation, was referred to by Jesus as THE GREAT TRIBULATION.

 

The Purpose is to Drive Israel to the Wall and bring about Hosea 5:

 

(Hosea 5:15) "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

 

I believe the "After" part is for the Jewish Remnant.

 

Anyone else have any thoughts on the matter?

 

1) "But the bible which is the word of God says that Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the Son of Man will be revealed in the clouds with a great trumpet sound and the gathering of the elect from the four winds of heaven."

 

You refer to the Olivet Discourse (Mat 24 & parallels).  In Mat 24 there is no Church & no Rapture.  There is no gathering of the elect to a meeting in the air to take them to Heaven (see 1 Thes 4 & John 14).  If the 2nd coming of Mat 24 were the Rapture, the Rapture would have to be after the Tribulation, for the 2nd coming there is after the trib.  But Mat 24 is about Israel & the Nations, not the Church.

 

2) The Purpose of the Tribulation.  Actually the Tribulation in the Bible is the Great Tribulation of 3 1/2 years; however, in popular Chr speech, "trib" means Daniel's 70th week of Dan 9.  I believe the Gt Trib is also the Time of Jacob's Trouble; so it has a special relation to Israel.  But also, it appears to me that the trib is the time of greatest salvation since earth was created.  A huge multitude of persons, even Gentiles, are saved in that time period, & at the end comes Israel's national salvation.  So I conclude that the Lord graciously puts the screws on mankind in hopes that they will repent & be saved.

 

 

 

=========================================================================================

 

 

You refer to the Olivet Discourse (Mat 24 & parallels).

 

Only for Christ's Reference to Daniel.  Matthew's Whole Gospel is heavily Jewish so I wouldn't expect any references to the Church.

 

This Rapture (Pre-Trib/Mid-Trib/Post Trib) is not an easy thing to discern 

 

 

2) The Purpose of the Tribulation.  Actually the Tribulation in the Bible is the Great Tribulation of 3 1/2 years; however, in popular Chr speech, "trib" means Daniel's 70th week of Dan 9.  I believe the Gt Trib is also the Time of Jacob's Trouble; so it has a special relation to Israel.  But also, it appears to me that the trib is the time of greatest salvation since earth was created.  A huge multitude of persons, even Gentiles, are saved in that time period, & at the end comes Israel's national salvation.  So I conclude that the Lord graciously puts the screws on mankind in hopes that they will repent & be saved.

 

Agree 100%

[Enoch2021]

 

 

Brother Argosy,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I do not see as you do.

First, let's look at 1 thess 5:

1Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

4But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

Spock's thoughts: the day of The Lord will come like a thief during peaceful times. There is no peace during the great trib. Honestly, this one thing should end any conversation about a post trib rapture.

Paul even said you do NOT EVEN NEED TO KNOW ABOUT THESE DATES. Why? Because you won't be here before it begins. we do not belong to the night, for God did not appoint us to suffer wrath. I believe the wrath he is referencing here is the day of The Lord judgment. Comfort yourself with these words. What words? You won't be here during that because you don't belong to the darkness.

Now let's look at 1 thess 4:

13Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Spock's thoughts: this coming of The Lord is the rapture, not second coming. Jesus is telling these church saints to be encouraged LOOKING FOR HIM, NOT FOR ANTICHRIST. my post trib brothers are looking for antichrist first, not Christ. Tsk tsk. No comfort in that. This trumpet call is not related to the rev 8 trumpets and there is nothing that says it has to be. You need to study Jewish literature to get the meaning on this. Notice, the DEAD IN CHRIST (church age saints, not OT BELIEVERS) will rise first. Then the living believers go up next. ENCOURAGE ONE ANOTHER WITH THESE WORDS- what kind of encouragement would it be if all these people had to wait for the great trib with all the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments to look forward to? Answer-none.

In fact, many trib saints will be slaughtered because they will hold on to their belief in Jesus and will not take the mark of the beast. Does that sound like something to be encouraged by? Do you think watching your children or loved ones being killed is encouraging?

One more thing my friend-God rescued Noah, did he not, before judgment? God rescued Lot before judgment, did he not? Just like them will he not do the same for the church? Please read rev 2 and 3 again. You may find pearls of wisdom in these admonition so to the 7 CHURCHES., especially to the church of Philadelphia. Good luck bro.

Spock watching and waiting for CHRIST, NOT FOR ANTICHRIST

 

 

Spock Spock

 

I LOVE IT!!!!

 

You actually surprised me with the majority of your Post....nearly fell off the chair!!

 

The Third Person References were Alarming....but completed the motif  LOL 

 

 

Spock's thoughts: the day of The Lord will come like a thief during peaceful times. There is no peace during the great trib. Honestly, this one thing should end any conversation about a post trib rapture.

 

YEP.  It's called The Doctrine of Imminence.  There is no proceeding event...and believers are taught to conduct their lives in a moment to moment expectancy of Our Coming KING; its all through the NT (Phil 3:20; Titus 2:13; Heb 9:28; 1 Thess 1:10; 4:18, 5:6, Rev 22:20). 

 

Basically all positions (Mid-Trib, Pre-Wrath-Post Trib) besides Pre-Trib, deny the Doctrine of Imminence.

 

 

An understanding of a Jewish Wedding (Jesus and HIS Bride "The Church") should be reckoned with here, IMHO.....

 

The Ketubah, Betrothal

 

- Payment of the Purchase Price  

- Bride Set Apart (Sanctified)        

 

- Bridegroom departs to Father's House

- Prepares a Room Addition

**  Bride Prepares for IMMINENT Return (But She does not know WHEN)

 

-  Surprise Gathering  (See example with the 10 Virgins Parable)

-  Grooms arrival is Proceeded by a SHOUT

 

- Wedding

- 7 Day Marriage Supper

 

What's that Look Like??  :rolleyes:    A Model, Maybe 

 

 

The Post Trib Rapture Model...... Come lets get Married; then, I'm gonna beat the Living Daylights out of You,  then lets go have Dinner 

 

(Luke 12:40) " Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

If there was a proceeding event in Scripture then this statement is of null effect.

 

7 (Shocking surprise) "Raptures" in Scripture

 

Enoch 

Elijah

Jesus

Philip

Paul

Body of Christ

John (Rev 4:1)

 

There is no peace during the great trib.

Very Good and you were almost there.  You Have the Tribulation in 2 Parts separated by 3 1/2 Years.  The Tribulation as a the Whole 7 Years and The GREAT TRIBULATION (quoted by Jesus from Daniel 12) which initiates the last 3 1/2 Years beginning with the Abomination of Desolation.

 

That is Identified in Scripture and is a PROCEEDING EVENT.  The Rapture MUST occur before this event or it contradicts dozen of Scriptures.

 

Christs Second Coming is also in 2 Phases:  The Rapture (Gathers His Bride) and Again for Israel

 

 

The Last 4 verses of Daniel Chapter 9 are the Key to End Time Prophecy.... and this is also echoed by Christ in the Olivet Discourse.

 

Daniel 9:27  The 70th Week..... Detailed in Revelation 6: 19

 

 

Also Remember:  There are 2 Missions......  The Church and Israel

 

The Church is not appointed for GOD's Wrath.....(1 Thessalonians 5:9) "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"  and (Revelation 3:10) " Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

 

TYPES:

 

Enoch and The Food of Noah.

 

Isaac's absence after his offer offering..... curiously, he's edited out of Scripture until 2 chapters later when he's United with His Bride.  (Check This)

 

Where was Ruth (Gentile Bride) during the Threshing Floor Scene?

 

Daniel's absence from the Fiery Furnace.

 

 

OT References:

 

(Isaiah 26:20-21) "Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.  {21} For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain."

 

(Zephaniah 2:3) "Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger."

 

(Psalms 27:5) "For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock."

 

 

Post Trib Problems:

 

1.  Denies The Doctrine of Imminence

2.  Requires the Church to be here During the 70th Week (Israel and The Church are Mutually Exclusive, Dan 9: 24)

3.  The Church experiences GOD'S Wrath

4.  How can the Bride (Church) come with Jesus if she's not Raptured First?

5.  Who's going to populate the Millennium?

6.  Who are the "Sheep and Goat" Judgement?  (Matthew 25)

7.  How can the Virgin's of Matthew 25 buy oil without the mark of the beast?

 

Last Point:  Revelation.....

 

The Seven Churches (The Seven Lampstands):  Identifies the Church Rev 1:20

 

They are on the Earth in Chapter 1.  They are in Heaven when John Arrives Chapter 4:5

 

One Church Promised not to go into the Great Tribulation.

 

The 24 Elders

 

-  Identified as the Redeemed (Rev 5: 9,10)

-  only three are Identified as Kings and Priests (Melchizedek, Jesus, and the Redeemed......US )

- They worship the Lamb before he receives the Scroll

- Tribulation begins when the Scroll is Unsealed

 

 

** The majority above courtesy of Dr. Chuck Missler **

 

I have trouble knowing who said what, but someone listed 7 raptures.  Let me advise to Read Rev 11 and see if you should add to the total!

 

 

OK, 9 

 

Elijah....That would be Twice for Him 

[other one]

what's with all the Enoch's lately????

[Enoch2021]

 

God the Father is the only one who knows when the His Son/Bridegroom will come for His Bride (Rapture)  Matt 24:26

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Yes indeed; only God knows, though we are to expect Him all the time at any time per James 5.  But Mat 24 has no Rapture & not Church.  No one in Mat 24 is caught up for a meeting in the air with the Lord Jesus. (The Rapture is the great CatchUp -- no mustard allowed).  But you make a good point on not knowing.  I tired in vain over & over with a Camping date-setter (May 21, 2011; then Oct 21, 2011) to impress on him that Mark 13 twice says, "You do not know when."

 

Of course not knowing when the Second Coming is to take place does not mean that we may not decide the most probable ordering of the events.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes indeed; only God knows, though we are to expect Him all the time at any time per James 5.

 

It's The Doctrine of Imminence and is here also.... (Phil 3:20; Titus 2:13; Heb 9:28; 1 Thess 1:10; 4:18, 5:6, Rev 22:20)

 

Curiously though.....these would be of null effect if the Rapture was not Pre-Trib because; if it's any other time...... knowing (Daniel/Abomination of Desolation) anyone with Scriptural Knowledge could pretty Much set there Watch.

 

This requires much more study and prayer.  Admittedly, I'm having problems understanding it