Proof of GOD, (without attacking Old Earth or evolution)

[gray wolf]

I think to find God by proofs. . . evidence with speaks to such proofs. . . that is not faith and that is not the way it is supposed to be.  That is why the atheist will never find God in such a manner.  I believe, but I do not have compelling proof to offer these people.

[Enoch2021]

So...what does that have to do with Hebrews 11:1 again?

 

 

 

It's the Substance Sheniy.  It's the substance of things hoped for but not seen<-------------------"Conceptual":   "It's Conceptual not Tangible Direct evidence in this Specific Case. The only way it can be Direct Physical Evidence, is if HE Manifested HIMSELF before us.......That's Coming"

 

 

(John 20:29) "Jesus saith unto him,  Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

 

 

Praise The LORD!!!!!!

[gray wolf]

That should sew it up.  Clever arguments in apologetics are valuable in that they may get a person thinking about the Ultimate, but it is faith that delivers.

[Enoch2021]

I think to find God by proofs. . . evidence with speaks to such proofs. . . that is not faith and that is not the way it is supposed to be.  That is why the atheist will never find God in such a manner.  I believe, but I do not have compelling proof to offer these people.

 

Too funny Gray.  OK lets start again....

 

slide courtesy of Dr. Chuck Missler

 

Faith is the Substance. Faith without Substance is "Blind" Faith.....

 

If it were "Blind", then you could go believing in anything.....evolution and 3 toed Gnomes ruling the Universe are perfect examples.

 

How do you have Faith, without it being Absolutely Blind, without Substance?

 

You can read a Book stating 3 Toed Gnomes Rule the Universe...and to believe that would be "Blind" Faith, because there's No Evidence or Substance.

 

How is that different than what you've been talking about?

 

 

Also "Proof" does not Preclude the NEED for Faith.....as Evidenced by Peter (and many others):

 

 

(Matthew 14:25-33) "And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea.  {26} And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.  {27} But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying,  Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.  {28} And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.  {29} And he said,  Come.  And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.  {30} But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.  {31} And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him,  O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?  {32} And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased.  {33} Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God."

 

Peter, as eloquently portrayed above, had AAA+ "Proof" and still faltered.  He still needed Faith, in other words.

 

All of this is is actually quite intuitive.

 

 

Hope it helps

[gray wolf]

Obviously I am not saying that our faith is blind faith, such as in myriad belief systems around the globe (and no, Christianity is more than a belief system).  What I meant to say is that in today's world we have no ironclad proof.  We have evidence and how we interpret that evidence plays a role in our faith, helping us determine whether it is justified or not.  More blessed are we that we believe without the proof offered to Thomas, as Jesus said.

[jerryR34]

 

Obviously I am not saying that our faith is blind faith, such as in myriad belief systems around the globe (and no, Christianity is more than a belief system).  What I meant to say is that in today's world we have no ironclad proof.  We have evidence and how we interpret that evidence plays a role in our faith, helping us determine whether it is justified or not.  More blessed are we that we believe without the proof offered to Thomas, as Jesus said.

Very well said.

[gray wolf]

And no, no one said we come from monkeys, did she or he? With the exception perhaps of my brother in law.

[Enoch2021]

Obviously I am not saying that our faith is blind faith, such as in myriad belief systems around the globe (and no, Christianity is more than a belief system).  What I meant to say is that in today's world we have no ironclad proof.  We have evidence and how we interpret that evidence plays a role in our faith, helping us determine whether it is justified or not.  More blessed are we that we believe without the proof offered to Thomas, as Jesus said.

 

 

==================================================================

 

 

Now it's Iron Clad "Proof".  This is like, Shrimp: creole, scampi, cocktail, fried, baked, grilled, sandwich et al

 

So far we have:

 

"Proof", "Evidence", "Concrete" evidence, "Strong" evidence, "Iron Clad" Proof.

 

 

(and no, Christianity is more than a belief system).

 

How so?

 

We have evidence

 

What Evidence

 

 

More blessed are we that we believe without the proof offered to Thomas, as Jesus said.

 

That's not what HE said....

 

(John 20:29) "Jesus saith unto him,  Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

 

You're equivocating "Proof" with "SEEN".  Unseen doesn't mean Unknowable/Unprovable.

 

I've never seen the bottom of the Ocean but with the SUBSTANCE of the Water on TOP along with an Understanding H₂O's properties....I can pretty much lay it on the line that THERE'S........SOME WATER DOWN THERE!!!

 

 

You can't have Genuine Faith without SUBSTANCE FIRST.  If you do......It's BLIND.  End of Story

[jerryR34]

 

Obviously I am not saying that our faith is blind faith, such as in myriad belief systems around the globe (and no, Christianity is more than a belief system).  What I meant to say is that in today's world we have no ironclad proof.  We have evidence and how we interpret that evidence plays a role in our faith, helping us determine whether it is justified or not.  More blessed are we that we believe without the proof offered to Thomas, as Jesus said.

 

 

==================================================================

 

 

Now it's Iron Clad "Proof".  This is like, Shrimp: creole, scampi, cocktail, fried, baked, grilled, sandwich et al

 

So far we have:

 

"Proof", "Evidence", "Concrete" evidence, "Strong" evidence, "Iron Clad" Proof.

 

 

(and no, Christianity is more than a belief system).

 

How so?

 

We have evidence

 

What Evidence

 

 

More blessed are we that we believe without the proof offered to Thomas, as Jesus said.

 

That's not what HE said....

 

(John 20:29) "Jesus saith unto him,  Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

 

You're equivocating "Proof" with "SEEN".  Unseen doesn't mean Unknowable/Unprovable.

 

I've never seen the bottom of the Ocean but with the SUBSTANCE of the Water on TOP along with an Understanding H₂O's properties....I can pretty much lay it on the line that THERE'S........SOME WATER DOWN THERE!!!

 

 

You can't have Genuine Faith without SUBSTANCE FIRST.  If you do......It's BLIND.  End of Story

Nothing Peter had ever seen had prepared him to walk on the water. Nothing we know now would tell us we could. It took blind faith for him to do it. You are wrong.

[Enoch2021]

 Nothing Peter had ever seen had prepared him to walk on the water. Nothing we know now would tell us we could. It took blind faith for him to do it. You are wrong.