Guest Butero Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Matthew 6:16-18 16 “And when you fast, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 17 But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, 18 that your fasting may not be seen by others but by your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. Notice above Jesus said "when" not "if" you fast. Acts 13:2-3 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." Then after fasting and praying they laid their hands on them and sent them off. Acts 14:23 And when they had appointed elders for them in every church, with prayer and fasting they committed them to the Lord in whom they had believed. Apparently fasting and prayer was common in the early church. Thoughts anyone? God bless, GE yes, the Lord Jesus referred to fasting; but the Lord Jesus also taught that one should keep all the Law of Moses. His ministry was to Israel; the Church was yet future ("I will build"). Thus not everything the Lord Jesus said to Israel under the Law & in view of the Kingdom proclamation, "Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand," is directly applicable to the Church. He kept the Fri 6 PM - Sat 6 PM Sabbath also, which the Church was told not to keep. What is relevant are the passages addressed to the Church, & IMHO, not the passages which are only in the Textus Receptus of the KJV, but verses supported by the oldest manuscripts. The mere historical record of what was done does not provide a commandment either. It is recorded that they squabbled over distributions to widows; but that does not imply we should squabble. The error of "primitive" is that whatever was done in the early church must thus be done in the church age down to today, as if we could not have electric lights becs the early ch did not have them. However, I do think we should take notice & consider what they did. We also find Paul taking a nazirite vow & shaving his head when it was over. Of course the early Church started with Israelites who continues Mosaic Law practices. At one point Paul also got involved in Temple ritual (right before his arrest at Jerusalem). What is really relevant are any passages which issue commandments to the Church on the subject. And I don't know of any. BTW, if you are going to fast the way the Lord Jesus did as in Mat 4, it appears that you will have to be non-hungry until the very end of the fast. Fasting is in the Bible, and we should practice fasting from time to time. It can be completely abstaining from food, but it can also be staying away from something else we enjoy. I completely reject you position on the TR. I am 100 percent KJV only. I reject the notion that the other manuscripts were somehow more reliable because of age. The only reason they were older is because they were preserved in caves. Some of those manuscripts appear to have been hastily copied, and some portions of the text were left out. Thus, my position is that every jot and tittle found in the TR is what we should go by. I also reject your position that the teachings of Jesus were only to Israel. You are correct in stating that they were under the entire law when Jesus was on earth, but that doesn't mean everything he taught no longer applies to us. We certainly do not sacrifice animals on the alter today, but the reason is obvious why we don't. Jesus one time sacrifice on the cross paid for our sins, and when we do something wrong today, we confess our sins to Christ to get forgiveness. I understand your position, and I have heard it before, but I utterly reject it. BTW, in case you have forgotten, Jesus stated that after the bride groom was taken from the people, his disciples would fast. That would mean after the cross. Fasting can't have been done away with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnochBethany Posted March 6, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 649 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 99 Days Won: 3 Joined: 02/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted March 6, 2014 Well, to establish what we should do, you need to quote the Bible command. If Jews in Acts were fasting, that makes sense as it is a transition from Judaism to the Church. And it is the error of primitivism to say because something was done, that means do it. They had quarrels; does that mean we should too? ' It is heresy to replace the Bible God gave with any translation. KJV-only is a heresy. KJV is a good human translation, but imperfect. God's Word is perfect & without error. How do you know mss were preserved in caves? Where is your proof? And if they were preserved in caves, how does that disqualify them? Do you have a Bible verse that says reject mss from caves? How do you know they appear to be hastily copied? You really think that Vaticanus & Sinaiticus were hastily copied? There are photos on the internet. Go look at them. I think if you are honest you will admit that they were done with great care. If it is KJV only, then there was no word of God until after 1600, which is absurd. The TR is not the same thing as the KJV. So which is it? "I also reject your position that the teachings of Jesus were only to Israel." I don't say that the teachings of the Lord Jesus are only to Israel; but they are mostly directed to Israel, under the Law (which the Church is not under) & in view of the imminent Kingdom proclamation. There was no Church until Acts 2. It is all God's Word, but not is written to us; though all is for us. I did not say that everything He taught no longer applies to us. BTW, in case you have forgotten, Jesus stated that after the bride groom was taken from the people, his disciples would fast. That would mean after the cross. And they did fast after the cross. But then He rose from the dead. And He is now WITH US ALWAYS unto the consummation of the age (Mat 28). There is no statement that the people would continue fasting after the resurrection. He was with the apostles for 40 days; do you think they were fasting or rejoicing with His presence? "Fasting can't have been done away with." To prove that one, you need a commandment to the Church, which you have not quoted. In the Law of Moses the word fast never occurs. But "affict your souls" on the Day of Atonement is there. So far as I know that is the only commandment of the Law to fast -- and it does not apply to the Church, any more than sending out a scape goat on the same day applies. Let me know when you find one verse that commands fasting (not merely mentioning that some Jew somewhere did it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 I am TR only, but there are few English translations from the TR, so I am KJV only. It is true I cannot prove the older and supposedly superior manuscripts were hastily copied, but neither can you prove that they weren't, and that the TR contains things that don't belong in the Bible. It is one opinion verses another, and I stand by my beliefs, as you are free to stand by yours. As to the topic at hand, fasting, here is my support for my position. But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days. Mark 2:20 Defraud you not one another, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer... 1 Corinthians 7:5 Both of these scriptures show that fasting is expected to take place among the church after the cross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted March 6, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted March 6, 2014 I am TR only, but there are few English translations from the TR, so I am KJV only. It is true I cannot prove the older and supposedly superior manuscripts were hastily copied, but neither can you prove that they weren't, and that the TR contains things that don't belong in the Bible. It is one opinion verses another, and I stand by my beliefs, as you are free to stand by yours. As to the topic at hand, fasting, here is my support for my position. But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days. Mark 2:20 Defraud you not one another, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer... 1 Corinthians 7:5 Both of these scriptures show that fasting is expected to take place among the church after the cross. Don't fall off yr chair...I agree as I have already posted Why would someone ask for something and demand proof, when no one has even slightly suggested there is a command to fast? Seriously? Of course Christians may fast at times and there are different types of fasts...even concerning the marital relationship (I'm not discussing that, but just to show that fasting is absoultely encouraged and most likely even expected) Oh wait...you already said that in yr last sentence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted March 6, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,150 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,441 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted March 6, 2014 witty one with purpose... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted March 6, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted March 6, 2014 witty one with purpose... common sense is so uncommon..... my husband and his brother say that LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted March 6, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted March 6, 2014 Well, to establish what we should do, you need to quote the Bible command. If Jews in Acts were fasting, that makes sense as it is a transition from Judaism to the Church. And it is the error of primitivism to say because something was done, that means do it. They had quarrels; does that mean we should too? ' It is heresy to replace the Bible God gave with any translation. KJV-only is a heresy. KJV is a good human translation, but imperfect. God's Word is perfect & without error. How do you know mss were preserved in caves? Where is your proof? And if they were preserved in caves, how does that disqualify them? Do you have a Bible verse that says reject mss from caves? How do you know they appear to be hastily copied? You really think that Vaticanus & Sinaiticus were hastily copied? There are photos on the internet. Go look at them. I think if you are honest you will admit that they were done with great care. If it is KJV only, then there was no word of God until after 1600, which is absurd. The TR is not the same thing as the KJV. So which is it? "I also reject your position that the teachings of Jesus were only to Israel." I don't say that the teachings of the Lord Jesus are only to Israel; but they are mostly directed to Israel, under the Law (which the Church is not under) & in view of the imminent Kingdom proclamation. There was no Church until Acts 2. It is all God's Word, but not is written to us; though all is for us. I did not say that everything He taught no longer applies to us. BTW, in case you have forgotten, Jesus stated that after the bride groom was taken from the people, his disciples would fast. That would mean after the cross. And they did fast after the cross. But then He rose from the dead. And He is now WITH US ALWAYS unto the consummation of the age (Mat 28). There is no statement that the people would continue fasting after the resurrection. He was with the apostles for 40 days; do you think they were fasting or rejoicing with His presence? "Fasting can't have been done away with." To prove that one, you need a commandment to the Church, which you have not quoted. In the Law of Moses the word fast never occurs. But "affict your souls" on the Day of Atonement is there. So far as I know that is the only commandment of the Law to fast -- and it does not apply to the Church, any more than sending out a scape goat on the same day applies. Let me know when you find one verse that commands fasting (not merely mentioning that some Jew somewhere did it). What's up? You keep asking for something but refuse to acknowledge scriptures regarding fasting It's really kind of funny that you keep asking for something no one has said existed. You might consider the spirit of the law rather than just the words. After all, the spirit gives life but the letter kills. The only thing written in stone was the Ten Commandments... as Christians, we now have that law written on our hearts and we are changed after the image of Christ. We desire to please God and we want to do as the Holy Spirit leads us. Fasting, is a discipline or spiritual exercise that falls well within the norm for a Christian. How about this....can you find in the Bible where we are told NOT to fast? I think yr emphasis is on the written word but I think most people are answering from that word under the help of the Holy Spirit..He is our helper and teacher you know and not just the third person who evidenced Himself at creation and forever after was never heard from again. As a believer, I know that God's word is FRESH and not stale. God leads us by His spirit to DO and not just to learn and point out error. I've done my share of pointing out error as well, but only when people practice things that are not scriptural and are false teachings. Some things, like following dreams and visions instead of having our minds renewed by the written word, are just plain dangerous. Another danger, is in insisting that people are not led by the Holy Spirit and we have only the Bible. These two are in agreement and work together...they are not opposed to each other. One without the other creates an imbalance and intolerance for the actions/viewpoints of another. We can all learn a thing or two...it all depends on how much we surrender our lives to Christ and are willing to allow Him to work in us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted March 6, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,150 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,441 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted March 6, 2014 witty one with purpose... common sense is so uncommon..... my husband and his brother say that LOL! It is fitted for only the humble of heart... as it's greatest rejoicing is not in thepreaching but in the doing 'Oh Lord Your Word 'IS' Truth' ... then hit the gas pedal! Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted March 6, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted March 6, 2014 yeah...when we actually DO...we find out that what scripture SAYS...is true! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnochBethany Posted March 7, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 649 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 99 Days Won: 3 Joined: 02/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted March 7, 2014 Verily it was posted: "Fasting can't have been done away with." To that claim I replied: To prove that one, you need a commandment to the Church, which you have not quoted. Let me know when you find one verse that commands fasting (not merely mentioning that some Jew somewhere did it). And now 7C's admits: "It's really kind of funny that you keep asking for something no one has said existed." On that I can rest my case. No scripture ever commands the Church to fast! And we are not under the law! Then & 7C continues with a straw-man admonition: "You might consider the spirit of the law rather than just the words. After all, the spirit gives life but the letter kills. The only thing written in stone was the Ten Commandments... as Christians, we now have that law written on our hearts and we are changed after the image of Christ. We desire to please God and we want to do as the Holy Spirit leads us. " Yes indeed, but what you say has nothing to do with the issue of whether or not the Body of Christ, the Church, should fast. If you don't have scripture, don't try to tell others that you have a special pipe-line to God, & the Church had best do as you say. 7 C goes on: "Fasting, is a discipline or spiritual exercise that falls well within the norm for a Christian." Do you have scripture to prove that fasting is a discipline? When the Lord Jesus fasted for 40 days, apparently He did not hunger until at the very end. If a man is so taken up with the Lord that the man is not interested in eating, is that a discipline? Norm; i.e. a rule commanded? It you have scripture which says that fasting is the norm for the Church, kindly post it. How about this....can you find in the Bible where we are told NOT to fast? So we should stand on our heads every day at 1 AM because the Bible never tells us not to do so? I have not argued, "Thou shalt not fast." An argument might be made from the statement of the Lord that His disciples did not fast because He was with them; thus time to concentrate on celebration. When He was gone they would fast. Hence we conclude that when He was in the tomb, they fasted. But Mat 28 tells us after the resurrection that now He is with us always! Moreover, we are commanded to rejoice! Next 7C turns to ye olde ad hominem; discuss the poster: I think yr emphasis is on the written word but I think most people are answering from that word And then another straw man statement: "under the help of the Holy Spirit..He is our helper and teacher you know and not just the third person who evidenced Himself at creation and forever after was never heard from again." And 7C goes on at length in this vein, seeming to lecture me on balancing Bible & Spirit as if this bolstered his claims. Is this a claim of spiritual superiority? I should believe your statements because you are more spiritual than I? What you said was very true; but it is out of place when debating fasting. Now just what does that have to do with finding that fasting is not commanded to the Church? Are you saying that the Spirit is on your side and that those who don't agree with you are thus non-spiritual, having brushed aside the ministry of the Spirit? If you want to discuss fasting, keep to the subject please. " Some things, like following dreams and visions instead of having our minds renewed by the written word, are just plain dangerous." I agree. I have never heard a claim for revelation nowadays via vision or dream that I had any reason to believe. So 7C, we need both of us to read scripture & trust the Lord for wisdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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