Guest Butero Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 I have thought it would be nice to live among the Amish for a year or so, not just in their communities, but to live exactly as they do. That way, I could get a real feel for how they live. I spent a lot of time looking into the Amish to see if that was possible, and reading up on their beliefs. I also spent time looking into the Beechy Amish. I see them in our local stores, and asked one of them where they meet. I wanted to attend one of their services and learn more about them. The last thing I want to do is corrupt them with the liberal lifestyle of the modern church. I just want to observe and learn from them. Perhaps I will attempt to attend one of their services again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajchurney Posted March 8, 2014 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 158 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 101 Days Won: 3 Joined: 01/30/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 8, 2014 Butero, I do not desire for this thread to turn into a debate on OSAS or works salvation. Not the point here, and there are plenty of threads that address these issues. Witchcraft is rebellion against the way of God, attempting to use power other than that of Holy Spirit, and that to ones own gain. What are "spells" of witchcraft designed to accomplish if not to control, manipulate, and/or bring harm to a person? What is a spell of "love" if it is not designed to bewitch the object person into doing what the witch desires, being controlled by them. I am shocked, honestly, that you have "no problem" with ultra-controlling church leaders and do not recognize the danger here and the total anti-christ spirit at work in such an atmosphere. Do you not value the "free indeed" paid for by the precious blood of your Christ? How can you have no problem with man-made yokes of bondage? You think that Jesus has "no problem" with such behavior and manipulation tactics employed IN HIS NAME! That is dangerous ground, brother, and in need of correction, but that is between you and Holy Spirit. I am done discussing it here as you seem unteachable and cemented in your opinions. A passion for truth does not equate to or condone control and manipulation as the way of Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 Butero, I do not desire for this thread to turn into a debate on OSAS or works salvation. Not the point here, and there are plenty of threads that address these issues. Witchcraft is rebellion against the way of God, attempting to use power other than that of Holy Spirit, and that to ones own gain. What are "spells" of witchcraft designed to accomplish if not to control, manipulate, and/or bring harm to a person? What is a spell of "love" if it is not designed to bewitch the object person into doing what the witch desires, being controlled by them. I am shocked, honestly, that you have "no problem" with ultra-controlling church leaders and do not recognize the danger here and the total anti-christ spirit at work in such an atmosphere. Do you not value the "free indeed" paid for by the precious blood of your Christ? How can you have no problem with man-made yokes of bondage? You think that Jesus has "no problem" with such behavior and manipulation tactics employed IN HIS NAME! That is dangerous ground, brother, and in need of correction, but that is between you and Holy Spirit. I am done discussing it here as you seem unteachable and cemented in your opinions. A passion for truth does not equate to or condone control and manipulation as the way of Jesus. And just as you consider me unteachable, I view you the same way. No, I have no problem with ultra-legalistic churches. If you are shocked I have said that, it is just because you haven't read the things I have been saying for the last several years. I believe it is better to be ultra-legalistic than to be ultra liberal. I don't believe you can be too conservative, but I do believe you can be too liberal and miss heaven. Back to the topic at hand, I don't think the Amish are the ones who have reason to be concerned about their souls. I believe those of us who are more liberal in the way we live, in the way we dress, in the things we allow, are in more danger than they are of missing heaven. I do not believe God is displeased with the way they do things, but I do believe he is displeased with a lot of the things we allow in the name of liberty. When this thread first began, I thought you were simply going to answer questions about the Amish people and how they live. It appears you have an agenda behind it. Even so, I do have a question for you. You say you spend time directly with Amish people. Approximately how many of those people, percentage wise, have told you they hate their life and want to be free from it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajchurney Posted March 9, 2014 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 158 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 101 Days Won: 3 Joined: 01/30/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 9, 2014 Butero, I do not desire for this thread to turn into a debate on OSAS or works salvation. Not the point here, and there are plenty of threads that address these issues. Witchcraft is rebellion against the way of God, attempting to use power other than that of Holy Spirit, and that to ones own gain. What are "spells" of witchcraft designed to accomplish if not to control, manipulate, and/or bring harm to a person? What is a spell of "love" if it is not designed to bewitch the object person into doing what the witch desires, being controlled by them. I am shocked, honestly, that you have "no problem" with ultra-controlling church leaders and do not recognize the danger here and the total anti-christ spirit at work in such an atmosphere. Do you not value the "free indeed" paid for by the precious blood of your Christ? How can you have no problem with man-made yokes of bondage? You think that Jesus has "no problem" with such behavior and manipulation tactics employed IN HIS NAME! That is dangerous ground, brother, and in need of correction, but that is between you and Holy Spirit. I am done discussing it here as you seem unteachable and cemented in your opinions. A passion for truth does not equate to or condone control and manipulation as the way of Jesus. And just as you consider me unteachable, I view you the same way. No, I have no problem with ultra-legalistic churches. If you are shocked I have said that, it is just because you haven't read the things I have been saying for the last several years. I believe it is better to be ultra-legalistic than to be ultra liberal. I don't believe you can be too conservative, but I do believe you can be too liberal and miss heaven. Back to the topic at hand, I don't think the Amish are the ones who have reason to be concerned about their souls. I believe those of us who are more liberal in the way we live, in the way we dress, in the things we allow, are in more danger than they are of missing heaven. I do not believe God is displeased with the way they do things, but I do believe he is displeased with a lot of the things we allow in the name of liberty. When this thread first began, I thought you were simply going to answer questions about the Amish people and how they live. It appears you have an agenda behind it. Even so, I do have a question for you. You say you spend time directly with Amish people. Approximately how many of those people, percentage wise, have told you they hate their life and want to be free from it? Fairly ridiculous question on several levels. Firstly, people in a closed society like Amish do not spill their guts to "English" (that's what they call non-Amish), unless they are well on their way out already. Quite a few of these have shared their troubling stories with me, as well as scores of ex-Amish. I never said nor implied that every Amish is miserable and wants to leave. Some of them, mostly older ones, seem content to be Amish. This really means nothing whatsoever in determining truth. The same could be said of JW's, Mormons, Christian Scientists, anyone. The percentage of those discontented means little, and the tighter-knit the community, the less likely there will be much vocalizing of issues. You should already know this. I have no agenda other than truth at all costs. I honor no traditions of men, and detest the traditions that keep men from a deeper and more genuine walk with God, as did the Lord Christ. It was traditions of men that blinded the Pharisees and those who followed their teachings into the ditch with them. I understand what you are saying about legalism seeming to be a safer direction of error than license. I prefer to follow Jesus alone and be neither legalistic or licentious. If you feel comfortable swinging wide one way over the other and don't mind declaring it publicly on Worthy, you are obviously free to your opinion and free to trumpet it loudly and proudly. I don't really understand how a Bible knowledgeable person dismisses legalism entirely as a problem in hatred for license, but you do not need me to understand you, you answer to Christ ultimately. I encourage you to go ahead and become Amish. Make your vow to their church (unbiblical practice), listen to the Bible read in High German which few normal Amish understand very well, live how they tell you to (by the way, you read your Bible too much, Butero, and are WAY, WAY, WAY to opinionated. You will be getting many visits from bishops telling you that you think you are too smart and need to be quiet and just conform). I hope you like sermons about staying Amish and do not enjoy expositional preaching, because you will hear little of that ever again. I also hope you like kissing men on the lips, communion once a year, and......it's just getting started. That is truth and reality. If that is quaint and Christlike to you, then go right ahead. Again, this is not about individual people and their personal walk with the Lord, but about standard practice of a Christ claiming movement. Do your homework before you rebut. please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 A person can only do so much homework on the Amish. I have gone to various web-sites to find anything I could on them. I have spoken with an Amish minister in my area. I have watched documentaries on the Amish. I have watched an Amish family, that overall liked being Amish, but had some issues with them, go through their daily lives on a BBC documentary. I could see both sides, as they were afraid just talking to the media would get them expelled and shunned, but at the same time, in other ways, they were happy. I also know different Amish groups differ in how they do things. In the Amish group in my area, men don't kiss on the lips, but on the cheek. I have looked into it the best I can as a person who isn't Amish. I don't think I could know what it is like entirely without being Amish for a reasonable amount of time. I actually was looking for a way to try the lifestyle out for a time, but saw how hard that would be. It is very difficult to find property in Amish areas. It takes a long period of time to become accepted, being an outsider, and that issue of speaking German would be a problem, if they do all their teaching that way. I have no experience in farming, so I would have to learn from scratch. My occupation is that of a truck driver, and I don't know how that would work out. I do see a lot of challenges I would have to face. To me, the Amish people as a whole seem to be happy. As you said, only those planning to leave will generally talk to outsiders, and most don't. For those who are unhappy, how many like where they are? I don't place them in the camp with Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons, because they have enough truth to be saved. I saw that with the family in the documentary. I have a genuine interest in knowing more about them. I think that it would be hard to become an old line traditional Amish person with my background, but Beechy Amish is possible. They hold to many of the same values, but they do allow for the use of electricity, automobiles, etc. You may not think I have a clue about the Amish, but I have spent time researching them. I don't think I would care for their method of preaching, opening up the Bible to wherever it lands without studying, but it is more about the lifestyle than the messages. I have problems with errors I find in every church I go to. That is the problem with having spent so much time in the Word, that I see every little thing when someone says something that isn't right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Walla, I heartily agree! Paul stated that one of the weaknesses of the Law was that the exceedingly sinful nature of sin actually used the Law to stir up rebellion to it. The Law diagnoses sin but lacks empowering grace to actually overcome it. The evidence of this in the Amish is that the majority of them push the limits of the rules that are over them, and when away from the community and its enforcing oversight, many dress in more normal clothes (like when they are on vacation somewhere), and watch television like crazy in the hotels. For myself, it has become a very interesting case study in the attempt to use legalism heavily in a Christian movement, and its results. Found something in 1 Peter 5 this morning while doing devotions that I think is related to your OP on legalism & control, etc. 1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock. 4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. -- 1 Peter 5:1-4 (KJV) Verse 3 seems pretty clear that elders should be examples, not lord and master over their flocks. Seems to me that Pharisee-style legalism would be ruled out, but that's just me. I don't feel like having this turn into a thread hijack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 That is a good point concerning elders, but there is more to it than that. There is a question over the freedom to choose to voluntarily place yourself under a controlling church body and live as the Amish do. There seem to be a group of people that want to stick their nose in everyone else's religion, and change it to the way they think it should be. They just assume that everyone would be happier being like them, and that is not always the case. I believe there are people that are happy being Amish, probably the majority. It is not my place to interfere. I see churches all the time that teach things I believe are absolutely false, because they are way too liberal. I don't see it as my place to infiltrate them and try to make them more conservative. I don't see it as my place to constantly attack them from the outside. I just choose to have nothing to do with them. I figure if you don't like the Amish lifestyle, don't hang out with them. Back when I was Pastoring a church, it was common to have people come in who didn't agree with my rules concerning how leaders had to dress, and try to change me by saying they would come there, if only I didn't have those requirements. I even had one person throwing around the fact they had a bunch of back tithes to give to the church if they did come there. I wouldn't go along, but I figured that there are churches all over town and all over the country where these people could go and do exactly what they wanted, so why come into mine and try to change it? I find that people, especially those who are more liberal and "anti-legalism" think it is their duty to try to make everyone like them, and assume everyone will appreciate what they are doing, and that is not the case. There has been so much of that over the years, a bunch of liberals coming into conservative churches and taking them over, I haven't got a place to attend. I refuse to go to churches like that. That is one reason why the Amish appeal to me. They haven't allowed liberals to take them over. They are more extreme than me, but that is better than the more liberal, anti-legalism churches in my area. Some of us don't want your version of "freedom in Christ." We actually prefer to be in what you would consider legalism and bondage, because we don't look at it like that. We believe it is being on the straight and narrow road, and we see the other side as on the broad road to destruction. We don't believe their message, and we fear it will lead to hell, no matter how much they try to assure us we are wrong, and throw scriptures around that they claim backs them up. It comes down to how you interpret the scriptures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Some of us don't want your version of "freedom in Christ." We actually prefer to be in what you would consider legalism and bondage, because we don't look at it like that. We believe it is being on the straight and narrow road, and we see the other side as on the broad road to destruction. We don't believe their message, and we fear it will lead to hell, no matter how much they try to assure us we are wrong, and throw scriptures around that they claim backs them up. It comes down to how you interpret the scriptures. Sorry, Butero, if I'm off base here, but this sounds a bit personal. I was not attacking you or your beliefs. I was trying to respond to something the OP said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Some of us don't want your version of "freedom in Christ." We actually prefer to be in what you would consider legalism and bondage, because we don't look at it like that. We believe it is being on the straight and narrow road, and we see the other side as on the broad road to destruction. We don't believe their message, and we fear it will lead to hell, no matter how much they try to assure us we are wrong, and throw scriptures around that they claim backs them up. It comes down to how you interpret the scriptures. Sorry, Butero, if I'm off base here, but this sounds a bit personal. I was not attacking you or your beliefs. I was trying to respond to something the OP said. I am sorry if it sounded like I was lashing out against you. This is personal to me, because of the things I have dealt with over the years. I feel like there are people that have more liberal religious views that have no respect for the right of others to disagree with them and follow their own convictions. When I saw the attacks on the Amish and how they live, it came across like another assault on people that others considered too legalistic and controlling to others. It wasn't that long ago when I was in a thread where people were accusing the Amish of being a cult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest P_W Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 I have known the Amish for many years and my family became particularly close to one family in general. We have been close to others, too, and when I was a child two Amish young men did their service in our local hospital. This was mandatory to serve when Conscientious Objectors, who were usually religious groups, were sent into roles of service instead of being sent to fight the Vietnam war. These young men happened to be sent to our area until their duty was done. While these young men were in our community we had them over to our house many times. We ate dinner together often and talked and learned of their customs and faith. The boys worked with my mother at the hospital and she formed quite a strong bond with them. The bond lasted over the years and many, many years later at the time of her passing, these men and their families came to pay their respects. Later in life, we were fortunate enough to form another bond with an Amish family and over the years we really learned a lot about them. I can understand the misconceptions, but I can only say I believe they are unfounded. We forget that Amish are people like all other people. You will find those who are quite spiritual and devoted to God and even baptized in the Holy Spirit, just like in any church, and you will find those who are different in their walk with God, maybe not quite as in touch, or devoted, just like any church. There is really too much to address here, and so much I truly did not understand; like the "high" German, whatever that means. Yes, they speak German, in their homes, when they are all together, but they know English well and use it when speaking with others. The Bibles they use are in German, so I am having trouble understanding this point. Since German is the first language in the home, why would one think they did not understand the language, or that there would be a problem for them to understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ? I don't want to haggle with anyone at all, but this OP is wrong on so many different levels. Most of this has been addressed well, so I will end with this; it is a Scripture that I think perfectly describes the Amish as a people. 1 Thessalonians 4:9-12 New American Standard Bible (NASB) 9 Now as to the love of the brethren, you have no need for anyone to write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another; 10 for indeed you do practice it toward all the brethren who are in all Macedonia. But we urge you, brethren, to excel still more, 11 and to make it your ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to your own business and work with your hands, just as we commanded you, 12 so that you will behave properly toward outsiders and not be in any need. Shalom, PrairWarur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts