Who do these dreams and visions come from?

[Izzel]

Those  of the Secret Rapture teach there are two phases of the Lord’s Return.  In the first phase Jesus will come secretly to take believers with Him to Heaven, and in the second phase, which is after the Great Tribulation, our Lord will return with the saints.  Although they do not like to admit it but they are suggesting that our Lord Jesus Christ will have a Third Coming.  Where in the Bible does it say that?  

 

.  “So Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.  To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.” (Heb. 9:28)  Christ’s appearance a second time is not a secret at all.  “When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.” (Col. 3:4) This verse states very clearly that our Lord Jesus Christ will appear a second time

 

. Christ’s Second Coming will be like the lightning    “For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.” (Mt. 24:27)  Can anyone not see the lightning when it flashes across the sky?  How then can anyone think the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ will be a secret one?

 

 Every eye will see Jesus Christ when He comes again   When the Lord returns He will not only appear to His disciples but also to every person on earth.  “Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see him, and they also who pierced Him.  And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.” (Rev. 1:7)  There is no secret about the Lord’s Second Coming.

[Izzel]

1 Thes 4:17 "harpagesometha = rapiemur = we shall be raptured (caught up).

The Rapture is the catch-up of 1 Thes 4:17, a Bible fact.

 

Thou sayest:

"I believe that the saint would be caught up at Jesus second coming and not before

Those that teach the rapture teach that the saints would be taken away secretly the bible does not say that"

 

OK, That is a horse of a different color!

While the rapture is an indisputable Bible fact,

Chrs disagree on its timing, relation to the Trib, id or non-id w/ 2nd coming to earth. See BibleAndTheology.com for a defense of pre-Trib -- & much ink is spilled debating it on the internet.

 

The "secretly" issue, IMHO, is irrelevant.  One might rate it on a scale of 0-10 as to how visible or invisible it is.  I don't know scripture to prove the degree of visibility. 

 

1 Thes 4 end = Rapture

2 Thes 5 start = Day of Lord / Trib.

 

Pre-Trib is for me the best way I know to reconcile all the scripture, the imminence (no signs needed) of the Rapture (Jas 5), the literalness of Dan's 70th week (like the literalness of the first 69 weeks).

 

In 2 Thes 2 the apostasia has to precede the Day of the Lord (a time of judgment/trouble in the Bible).  Apostasia means "departure."  Probably most readers, using translations that do not say "departure," take it to mean a religious departure, apostasy, in English.  However, based on the Liddell & Scott Greek Lexicon, the big grand daddy comprehensive lexicon of ancient Greek, & the usage in the Dormition of Mary, apostasia can mean a literal departure, as in the Rapture.

 

It doesn't bother me that other Chrs don't see it the way I do; it does bother me if someone posts, "The Rapture is a lie," or you are a heretic for disagreeing on a detail of eschatology. 

 

It put it to you that however you may put it all together, the important thing is to expect the Return of Christ at any time -- the judge is at the doors!  But don't go setting dates or fanaticizing over the latest newspaper headline:  "Earthquake hits Alaska!"

 

Why bumgolly, we are in Mat 24's signs!  rubbish.

The Lord will descend from heaven with a shout   The apostle Paul wrote about the Return of the Lord Jesus Christ.  “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.  And the dead in Christ will rise first.  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.  And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”  (1 Thess. 4:16-18)  There is nothing in these verses that says the Lord’s Second Coming will be a quiet and secret one.  After the Second Coming the saints will be with Jesus Christ forever.

 

May I ask who are these saints coming with the Lord ?

 

Jude 1:14

King James Version (KJV)

14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

[Izzel]

Do animals and babies dream and see visions ?

[ENOCH2010]

 

1 Thes 4:17 "harpagesometha = rapiemur = we shall be raptured (caught up).

The Rapture is the catch-up of 1 Thes 4:17, a Bible fact.

 

Thou sayest:

"I believe that the saint would be caught up at Jesus second coming and not before

Those that teach the rapture teach that the saints would be taken away secretly the bible does not say that"

 

OK, That is a horse of a different color!

While the rapture is an indisputable Bible fact,

Chrs disagree on its timing, relation to the Trib, id or non-id w/ 2nd coming to earth. See BibleAndTheology.com for a defense of pre-Trib -- & much ink is spilled debating it on the internet.

 

The "secretly" issue, IMHO, is irrelevant.  One might rate it on a scale of 0-10 as to how visible or invisible it is.  I don't know scripture to prove the degree of visibility. 

 

1 Thes 4 end = Rapture

2 Thes 5 start = Day of Lord / Trib.

 

Pre-Trib is for me the best way I know to reconcile all the scripture, the imminence (no signs needed) of the Rapture (Jas 5), the literalness of Dan's 70th week (like the literalness of the first 69 weeks).

 

In 2 Thes 2 the apostasia has to precede the Day of the Lord (a time of judgment/trouble in the Bible).  Apostasia means "departure."  Probably most readers, using translations that do not say "departure," take it to mean a religious departure, apostasy, in English.  However, based on the Liddell & Scott Greek Lexicon, the big grand daddy comprehensive lexicon of ancient Greek, & the usage in the Dormition of Mary, apostasia can mean a literal departure, as in the Rapture.

 

It doesn't bother me that other Chrs don't see it the way I do; it does bother me if someone posts, "The Rapture is a lie," or you are a heretic for disagreeing on a detail of eschatology. 

 

It put it to you that however you may put it all together, the important thing is to expect the Return of Christ at any time -- the judge is at the doors!  But don't go setting dates or fanaticizing over the latest newspaper headline:  "Earthquake hits Alaska!"

 

Why bumgolly, we are in Mat 24's signs!  rubbish.

The Lord will descend from heaven with a shout   The apostle Paul wrote about the Return of the Lord Jesus Christ.  “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.  And the dead in Christ will rise first.  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.  And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”  (1 Thess. 4:16-18)  There is nothing in these verses that says the Lord’s Second Coming will be a quiet and secret one.  After the Second Coming the saints will be with Jesus Christ forever.

 

May I ask who are these saints coming with the Lord ?

 

Jude 1:14

King James Version (KJV)

14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

 

They are all the believers that have died in the past 2000 years or so

[walkonwater]

Are visions and dream different or similar ?

A vision from the Lord is when you are awake, a dream from the Lord is when you are sleeping, it feels not as your other dreams, it feels real as if you are really there, vividly, not dream like. These days are "still" the last days until Jesus does come for us.  And the Spirit of the Lord is being poured out among all flesh, there is no end to this, till Jesus appears for us.  The one dream I had from the Lord that really sticks out in my mind is, I saw my pastor on a platform with other pastors behind him, i walked up to him and opened his hand, and put the tiniest seashell i have ever seen, in his hand and closed his fingers upon it, a small giggle came from my lips as i walked away still looking at him, when I awoke I asked the Lord what that dream meant and He revealed to me that the seashell represented hardness and the size meant the amount, and that was all of my hard self that i gave up, it really saddened me because the shell was so minuscule.  The Lord is reshaping me, I am a work of His in progress, and the places where I need to be in Him, He is bringing me there in Him, what I can't do, He can, in His wonderful love, which is for everyone of us.  Yes, I have been given heavenly dreams and visions, because that is where my God is, things of Him are heavenly, not earthly, I also know earth does not accept things of heaven. I've been there myself, now I am walking in His direction not away, all because He is bringing me there in Him.

 

 

[Izzel]

 

Are visions and dream different or similar ?

A vision from the Lord is when you are awake, a dream from the Lord is when you are sleeping, it feels not as your other dreams, it feels real as if you are really there, vividly, not dream like. These days are "still" the last days until Jesus does come for us.  And the Spirit of the Lord is being poured out among all flesh, there is no end to this, till Jesus appears for us.  The one dream I had from the Lord that really sticks out in my mind is, I saw my pastor on a platform with other pastors behind him, i walked up to him and opened his hand, and put the tiniest seashell i have ever seen, in his hand and closed his fingers upon it, a small giggle came from my lips as i walked away still looking at him, when I awoke I asked the Lord what that dream meant and He revealed to me that the seashell represented hardness and the size meant the amount, and that was all of my hard self that i gave up, it really saddened me because the shell was so minuscule.  The Lord is reshaping me, I am a work of His in progress, and the places where I need to be in Him, He is bringing me there in Him, what I can't do, He can, in His wonderful love, which is for everyone of us.  Yes, I have been given heavenly dreams and visions, because that is where my God is, things of Him are heavenly, not earthly, I also know earth does not accept things of heaven. I've been there myself, now I am walking in His direction not away, all because He is bringing me there in Him.

 

 

 

How do you understand this verses thanks 

 

Job 33:14-16

King James Version (KJV)

14 For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not.

15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;

16 Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,

 

How are the instructions sealed ?

[Izzel]

 

Are visions and dream different or similar ?

A vision from the Lord is when you are awake, a dream from the Lord is when you are sleeping, it feels not as your other dreams, it feels real as if you are really there, vividly, not dream like. These days are "still" the last days until Jesus does come for us.  And the Spirit of the Lord is being poured out among all flesh, there is no end to this, till Jesus appears for us.  The one dream I had from the Lord that really sticks out in my mind is, I saw my pastor on a platform with other pastors behind him, i walked up to him and opened his hand, and put the tiniest seashell i have ever seen, in his hand and closed his fingers upon it, a small giggle came from my lips as i walked away still looking at him, when I awoke I asked the Lord what that dream meant and He revealed to me that the seashell represented hardness and the size meant the amount, and that was all of my hard self that i gave up, it really saddened me because the shell was so minuscule.  The Lord is reshaping me, I am a work of His in progress, and the places where I need to be in Him, He is bringing me there in Him, what I can't do, He can, in His wonderful love, which is for everyone of us.  Yes, I have been given heavenly dreams and visions, because that is where my God is, things of Him are heavenly, not earthly, I also know earth does not accept things of heaven. I've been there myself, now I am walking in His direction not away, all because He is bringing me there in Him.

 

 

 

thanks 

[Izzel]

 

 

1 Thes 4:17 "harpagesometha = rapiemur = we shall be raptured (caught up).

The Rapture is the catch-up of 1 Thes 4:17, a Bible fact.

 

Thou sayest:

"I believe that the saint would be caught up at Jesus second coming and not before

Those that teach the rapture teach that the saints would be taken away secretly the bible does not say that"

 

OK, That is a horse of a different color!

While the rapture is an indisputable Bible fact,

Chrs disagree on its timing, relation to the Trib, id or non-id w/ 2nd coming to earth. See BibleAndTheology.com for a defense of pre-Trib -- & much ink is spilled debating it on the internet.

 

The "secretly" issue, IMHO, is irrelevant.  One might rate it on a scale of 0-10 as to how visible or invisible it is.  I don't know scripture to prove the degree of visibility. 

 

1 Thes 4 end = Rapture

2 Thes 5 start = Day of Lord / Trib.

 

Pre-Trib is for me the best way I know to reconcile all the scripture, the imminence (no signs needed) of the Rapture (Jas 5), the literalness of Dan's 70th week (like the literalness of the first 69 weeks).

 

In 2 Thes 2 the apostasia has to precede the Day of the Lord (a time of judgment/trouble in the Bible).  Apostasia means "departure."  Probably most readers, using translations that do not say "departure," take it to mean a religious departure, apostasy, in English.  However, based on the Liddell & Scott Greek Lexicon, the big grand daddy comprehensive lexicon of ancient Greek, & the usage in the Dormition of Mary, apostasia can mean a literal departure, as in the Rapture.

 

It doesn't bother me that other Chrs don't see it the way I do; it does bother me if someone posts, "The Rapture is a lie," or you are a heretic for disagreeing on a detail of eschatology. 

 

It put it to you that however you may put it all together, the important thing is to expect the Return of Christ at any time -- the judge is at the doors!  But don't go setting dates or fanaticizing over the latest newspaper headline:  "Earthquake hits Alaska!"

 

Why bumgolly, we are in Mat 24's signs!  rubbish.

The Lord will descend from heaven with a shout   The apostle Paul wrote about the Return of the Lord Jesus Christ.  “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.  And the dead in Christ will rise first.  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.  And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”  (1 Thess. 4:16-18)  There is nothing in these verses that says the Lord’s Second Coming will be a quiet and secret one.  After the Second Coming the saints will be with Jesus Christ forever.

 

May I ask who are these saints coming with the Lord ?

 

Jude 1:14

King James Version (KJV)

14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

 

They are all the believers that have died in the past 2000 years or so

 

This is where everyone is so intune with the rapture they cannot see that the saints Jesus come with is not the church but holy angels 

[EnochBethany]

Izzel posteth:

 

"Thess. 4:16-18) There is nothing in these verses that says the Lord’s Second Coming will be a quiet and secret one. After the Second Coming the saints will be with Jesus Christ forever.

MNow Izzel, you gots to find someone claiming a quiet & secret rapture before you badmouth the theory or try to straw man argue it. The Pre-trib theory is not about a quiet & secret rapture.  Whether it be secret or open or half-hid is not the issue.  The issue is when does it happen?  Could it happen today?

 

Kindly stop going on about secret rapture until you find someone saying it.

 

BTW, if 1 Thes doesn't say secret, that proves nothing at all. It doesn't say either secret or open to the public -- not that it matters to me for Pre-Trib theory.

 

Izzel politely asketh:

 

May I ask who are these saints coming with the Lord ?

 

Why yes you may.

 

The Izzel quoteth Jude:

Jude 1:14King James Version (KJV)14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

They are all the believers that have died in the past 2000 years or so
This is where everyone is so intune with the rapture they cannot see that the saints Jesus come with is not the church but holy angels

 

Now how do you know that, Izzel?  How do you know that this is not the Church returning with Christ 7 years after the Rapture?

 

Now, O Izzel, read the start of John 14.  When Christ comes there, the Church is on the earth.  Now where does He take the Church?  Could it be to the Father's House in Heaven?  If so, does that make sense at the end of the Trib?  If Christ is going to stay at the earth & rule, how does that fit with taking the Church to Heaven so they can be with Him?

 

Honestly, what you posted is not one shred of evidence vs the Pre-trib rapture.

 

Now get this:  In Mat 24 there is no Church & is no Rapture; No saints are said to go to a meeting in the air with the Lord Jesus in Mat 24.

[EnochBethany]

Fireheart posted to me:

 

"what? [Vot der Dumboozel?]

taken into judgement? where on earth does it say that?"

 

Quote:

One Will Be Taken

The illustration used in this parable is straight foreword in both examples. There will be a separation where one individual will be taken and the other left behind. Also, in context, it is clear that one is a believer and the other is not. This describes a clear separation process. The question related to this passage is who is taken and who is left behind. Those who hold to pretribulationism have argued both ways on this issue. Does this refer to the believer being taken and the unbeliever left behind, or just the reverse, where the unbeliever is taken away in the believer is left to enter the kingdom? I believe the latter view is the correct. It is the unbeliever who is taken away in judgment.

As I have been arguing throughout Matthew 24, the focus is upon the second coming while the rapture is nowhere to be found in this passage. In Matthew 24, our Lord is teaching about the events leading up to His return (tribulation events in verses 4- 26), followed by a revelation of His second coming, which is then followed by parables that drive home lessons related to His previous teachings (32- 51). I think it would be inconsistent to introduce parables about the rapture when He has not taught about that event in this passage.[1]

It is true that when the rapture occurs there will be a separation of believers from unbelievers when we are snatched away from planet earth. It is true that somewhere there will two people together and one is taken while the other is left, however, that is not what is spoken of in Matthew 24 because of the context. These parables are making points about what Christ taught in 24:4- 31.

 

Taken In Judgment or Salvation?

The Greek word used in verses 40 and 41 is paralambano, made up of the root word lambano, which means " to take" or " receive" and the preposition para, which means " along side of." Thus, the meaning of this verb is " to take into close association, take (to oneself), take with/along." [2] The only place that I could find where this word is clearly used of the rapture is of Christ' s initial disclosure of this mystery in John 14:3: " I will come again, and receive you to Myself." Since paralambano is not a technical term that has the same meaning in every instance it is used in the New Testament, like any word in any language, usage must be determined by how it is used in a given context.

Some have tried to argue that " taken" here refers to the pre-trib rapture. There is a small minority of pretribulationist that see these two verses as a reference to the rapture.[3] For example, David L. Cooper said, " The dominant idea is that the one who is a child of God will be taken, whereas the one who has never made his peace with the Lord will be left to pass into the Great Tribulation." [4] As Louis Barbieri has noted: " The Lord was not describing the Rapture, for the removal of the church will not be a judgment on the church. If this were the Rapture, as some commentators affirm, the Rapture would have to be posttribulational, for this event occurs immediately before the Lord' s return in glory." [5]

Some have said that paralambano is only used of positive relations. However, such is not the case. It is used of the Roman soldiers taking Jesus away from the Garden of Gethsemane to the Praetorium and eventual crucifixion (Matt. 27:27; John 19:16). It is used of the devil taking Jesus with him to show Him all the kingdoms of this world (Matt. 4:5, 8). This verb is also used of the exercised demon returning to the newly swept house and taking with it seven other spirits (Matt. 12:45; Luke 11:26). Stan Toussaint discusses this matter as follows:

 

Is this a description of the rapture of the church or of the taking of the wicked to judgment? Those who take the former position argue that " to take" (paralambano), the verb used her, is to be differentiated from " to take" (airw), the verb used in verse thirty-nine. It is asserted that paralambano signifies the act whereby Christ receives His own to Himself. However, paralambano is also used in a bad sense (cf. Matthew 4:5, 8; John 19:16). Since it is parallel in thought with those who were taken in the judgment of the flood, it is best to refer the verb to those who were taken for judgment preceding the establishment of the kingdom. The difference in verbs can be accounted for on the basis of accuracy of description. " The flood came and swept them all away" is a good translation.[6]

 

Contextual Consideration

For me, the strongest reason to take the separation depicted in this passage as a reference to ones taken away in judgment is the context. It appears that verses 40- 41 are illustrating that which preceded it in verses 36- 39, namely that those who were not prepared in the days of Noah were taken away, in judgment, by the flood. Verse 39 ends by saying, " so shall the coming of the Son of Man be." Clearly the emphasis in this verse is on unbelievers being taken away in the judgment of the flood. Therefore, verses 40- 41 drive that point home by giving a couple examples of the coming separation that will occur at this time of judgment. Arno Gaebelein notes the following:

 

Two classes were living in Noah' s day. The one who were unbelieving and these were swept away by the divine judgment. The other class was Noah and his house, and he and his own were left and not destroyed by the judgment. It will be so again in the coming of the Son of Man. The unbelievers will be taken away in the day of judgment and wrath; the others will be left on the earth to receive and enjoy the blessings of the coming age and enter into the kingdom, which will then be established.[7]

 

Parallel Passage

Another reason to see verses 40- 41 as illustrating ones who are taken in judgment is the parallel passage found in Luke 17:24- 37. In a previous section (17:26- 30), Christ speaks of the coming of the Son of Man being just like the days of Noah and Lot. In both illustrations it was the wicked one who was taken in judgment. Luke 17:27 says, " the flood came and destroyed them all." Verses 28 and 29 say: " It was the same as happened in the days of Lot . . . and destroyed them all." (emphasis added) Verses 34- 36 gives three illustrations of the separation of believers and unbelievers. Then the following question is asked by the disciples: " Where Lord?" This question means where are the unbelievers taken? Jesus answers: " Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together." Eagles in this context imply vultures who hover over and scavenger a dead corpse. Thus, anyone would be able to see where a dead body is because of the vultures hovering above (Rev. 19:17-21). Such language clearly supports the notion that the ones taken are removed to judgment. Maranatha!

 

(To Be Continued . . .)

[unQuote]

 

I got lazy & decided just to quote you a defense of the POV that taken in Mat 24 refers to "taken in judgment."

Quote from "The Thomas Ice Collection:   Rapture Ready."

(off the internet)