The SUN (lets take a look see)

[Enoch2021]

In reality he refutes your argument with every paper, book, etc that he puts out supporting his argument. 

 

 

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Well go ahead....Neutrinos aren't gonna do it.  Real or Conjured varieties.

[Guest]

The most obvious question that flows form this and a couple other threads you have started, is why, if this is the slam dunk you claim it all to be, am I only hearing it from you and whatever sources you use? 

 

I am not an astrophysicist but I am not totally ignorant of the subject.  

 

Why is it that even other Christians cannot see what to you is too obvious to miss? 

 

Take Hugh Ross for example, I have read a few of his books, listen to multiple PodCast by him and regularly use the RTB resources. 

 

I have a  great deal of respect for him and his credentials are hard to top. 

 

Yet somehow he has missed all this. 

 

Why is that?

 

~

 

Why

 

He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end. Ecclesiastes 3:11

 

Is

 

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Hebrews 11:3

 

That

 

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6

 

And

 

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160

 

Is That

 

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Colossians 2:8

 

Why~!

[Sheniy]

I still don't understand why christians can't believe that the universe exploded into existence.

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." I found a technical translation of Genesis that reduces each word down to it's original root, which is interesting. The word for "created" came from a word that means "to fatten". To expand from something small...

I sort of imagine God creating the world like an artist working on a piece of artwork (it clearly is that, at least).

An idea forms in His mind, and this reality begins with a spark of thought. BANG. The explosion isn't entirely chaotic as He guides it, shapes it, like a potter working with clay. I can see Him really getting into it, getting his hands dirty with cosmic space stuff, swirling the galaxies with his finger (anthropomorphically speaking ). He leans back, closes one eye for perspective, then adds a dash of Pleiades to the glittering Cosmos.

   Then he looks around for it...there. Buried in masses of swirling space debris and dust, it hangs in space. This tiny rock, formless and empty and dark, but full of His purpose. He hovers over the surface like a protective parent, inspecting the depths and dark places, pushing away bits of asteroid and space rock that threaten to destroy this tiny world. This is where His creation truly begins, and His grand plan echoes through time.

   "Let light be," He says, and a nearby rock bursts into flame as it approaches, its light flares and flickers above the earth's surface, burning away the darkness. The waters glisten blue-black as the light grows brighter, and He catches the blazing comet before it crashes into the sea. He holds it over the world like a torch, then nods in satisfaction.
    He moves the waters, separating them, creating the atmosphere for life to exist. The lower waters recede as land appears. This is the first time His creation comes out of the water, clean and new, but it will not be the last, and He smiles. He touches the earth, pulling out the elements in the dirt and forming them into complex mechanisms that house the blueprints for an even greater, more complex, self-replicating machine. He plants the seed into the ground and it dies, then a greater life springs forth. This is the first time in this creation that life comes from a death, but it won't be the last. He smiles, and life fills the earth with a vibrant green, life in many different flavors and kinds.
This new life needs sustenance, so He steps back from the earth into the space surrounding it, collects the nearby gasses into a ball, and lights them on fire. He regulates the temperature of this new star, and sets the earth into a particular orbit around it, giving the planet a spin so every corner is exposed to the life-giving heat and energy.  The comet He was holding He launches into space, setting it on a trajectory that will bring it back to light up the sky again someday. He sweeps up the dust surrounding the planet like a curtain being pulled away, and the distant stars and galaxies can now cast their light upon the earth. He forms the dust into a ball and hangs it nearby to reflect the light of the sun on the dark side of the planet. He cleans up the rest of the solar system in this way, adding several more bright spots to the night sky, and sets them in orbit around the sun. He examines His handiwork from the perspective of the earth, and is satisfied.
He then reaches into the sea and pulls out some clay.  Again, using the elements of the earth, he creates a tiny mechanism encoded with self-replicating life. Some of these, he throws into the sea, others he tosses into the sky. They grow into more life, different from the plants and trees, but still connected by the stuff of the earth they were made from. The variations in this life are numerous, from the luminescent jellyfish and the playful dolphins to the joyful songbirds and the colorful hummingbirds zipping from flower to flower. He shapes some more life out of the earth and places them on land, and they grow into graceful felines and creeping lizards and a myriad of other animal. He smiles again; His work here is almost done.

   He reaches for the earth again and pulls out some more clay. This particular piece is special. He forms it like the creatures he made before; the same encoded life, the same biological format, with a few differences in appearance and function. But the biggest difference, the one thing that sets apart this creature of dirt from all the rest is when He breathes into it His own breath of Life. This Life, this spirit, is more true, more real, than the mechanical life on the earth. It is an aspect of Himself that now resides inside this dirt man, who is now an image, an earthly "copy" of Himself. The dirt man awakens and recognizes his Creator, and the Creator smiles. It is nearly finished, but it is not good for this man to be alone.
He causes the man to fall asleep, then He takes a portion of the man's flesh from his side and forms a partner, a bride.  Now it is finished. This is the first time in this creation that this happens, but will not be the last. 

 

  His creation is complete. The man and woman awaken and become one again. The Creator places them together in the paradise He made for them, and He dwells among them. And He decides that this is very, very good.

 

  And that is how I imagine it. 

Edited March 12, 2014 by Sheniy

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

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Sheniy you're a sweetheart.  I will attempt to tread as lightly as possible

 

I still don't understand why christians can't believe that the universe exploded into existence.

 

Well firstly, you would have to show.....IN SCRIPTURE, where this explosion is?

 

We could go into the Tenets of The Big Bang but lets just stick with the BIG Kahuna contradiction with GOD'S WORD.  The Big Bang has the SUN before the Earth.  Subtle difference but Huge Ramifications and a Direct Contradiction of the GOD'S WORD.  Then it goes into Quasi Nebular Hypothesis Scenarios.....See Specific Topic in this Forum just posted Monday.

 

This a a TextBook example of people using science as their Hermeneutic Filter.

 

Note we didn't touch on:  First there was nothing....... and then it exploded 

 

 

"Let light be,"

 

Yes but with the Big Bang Scenario......"Light" would have already been!! .....The Explosion.   See It?  It's Subtle again.....however,:

 

(Genesis 3:1) "Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?"

 

AND

 

(Genesis 1:2) "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

 

Then...

 

(Genesis 1:3) "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light."

 

 

I don't think the Big Bang has any "Waters" for quite some time after the Bang....or especially any "Waters" before "Light".

 

 

 

I sort of imagine....and.....And that is how I imagine it.

 

This is the Problem Sheniy....... "Imagine".  There is enough "Light" in Scripture to summarily dismiss this rather easily.  Couple that with the Inherent basic science and logic contradictions the theory has with how vigorously and dogmatic this nonsense is defended; well; the writing is.... as they say (Or as Daniel says), on the Wall.

[LookingForAnswers]

A clarification question for you Enoch....are you saying the chrimosphere is hotter than the core of the sun?

[Enoch2021]

A clarification question for you Enoch....are you saying the chrimosphere is hotter than the core of the sun?

 

 

No, I'm saying (see Temp Profile below) that the Chromosphere is Hotter than the Photosphere (surface) and the Corona is Hotter by Logarithmic Magnitudes than either of them.

 

I don't think anyone can get or ever will get to the "Core" for a Temp; In this case it's irrelevant anyway.....

 

 

[Enoch2021]

I did want to touch on this again....

 

 

** Just a Side Personal Note:  It appears that with every topic I encounter, "people" are oblivious or accidentally on purpose forget about a "Pillar Of Science"-----The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.

 

Because, this will happen......

 

“If your theory is found to be against the second law of thermodynamics, I can give you no hope; there is nothing for [your theory] but to collapse in the deepest humiliation.”
Arthur S. Eddington, The Nature of the Physical World (1930), p. 74.

 

 

The Irony here is overwhelming and I needed to post.  If I'm not mistaken, it was Eddington (See previous quote) who was behind a good part of The Standard Model of the Sun.

 

Of course, @ that time there was no way to know the temp profiles...so I'm not making "Light" of the fact.  Just found it IRONIC.

[Enoch2021]

Missing Neutrinos from Hugh Ross.

 

http://www.reasons.org/articles/missing-solar-neutrinos-found

 

 

And, I forgot....

 

Dr. Scott has a rebuttal to these so called "found" "Flavored" Neutrinos.

 

If you wish I will post....but I think there are bigger fish to fry.

[Sheniy]

Hi, Enoch.

I know we seem to disagree a lot, but I do respect your knowledge and understanding on the subject, and your adherence to the Word, and your love for the truth. I share the same love and respect for the Word of God, and I in no way want to go against it. I do believe it is 100% inspired (read: God-breathed). I believe our disagreement comes from our own personal, fallible interpretations of the written text. If you can show me proof beyond doubt that I am wrong, I am more than willing to change my view. I just haven't seen that proof yet.

Another thing I want to clarify (which I have explained elsewhere in this forum): I reject the evolutionary take on the big bang. I reject wholeheartedly any part of the evolutionary theory that doesn't allow for the possibility of God. Having said that, I don't think that everything in the evolutionary theory ultimately rejects God. The base component of the big bang theory is that the universe has a beginning and that it came from practically nothing, which I believe is very much in line with the bible.
 

Sheniy you're a sweetheart.  I will attempt to tread as lightly as possible
 

I still don't understand why christians can't believe that the universe exploded into existence.

 
Well firstly, you would have to show.....IN SCRIPTURE, where this explosion is?

 

 
I thought I gave a decent example here that provides the possibility of an explosion.
 

"'In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.' I found a technical translation of Genesis that reduces each word down to it's original root, which is interesting. The word for "created" came from a word that means "to fatten". To expand from something small..."


It is by no means proof, but it allows for the possibility of a rapidly expanding universe at the very beginning.

My question for you is this: if not a rapid expansion from nothing, then how did the universe happen? I'm not asking who: we both know it's God. I'm asking how He did it. Specifically. Where did the stars and galaxies and planets and nebulae come from?

 

We could go into the Tenets of The Big Bang but lets just stick with the BIG Kahuna contradiction with GOD'S WORD.  The Big Bang has the SUN before the Earth.  Subtle difference but Huge Ramifications and a Direct Contradiction of the GOD'S WORD.  Then it goes into Quasi Nebular Hypothesis Scenarios.....See Specific Topic in this Forum just posted Monday.

Again, I thought I covered this in my post here:
 

"This new life needs sustenance, so He steps back from the earth into the space surrounding it, collects the nearby gasses into a ball, and lights them on fire. He regulates the temperature of this new star, and sets the earth into a particular orbit around it, giving the planet a spin so every corner is exposed to the life-giving heat and energy."


Note that in my very speculative (I do not deny it) example, the sun is made after the vegetation, on the "fourth day", along with the moon and the rest of the planets. The rest of the cosmos also becomes visible at this time.  In fact, I did include the events of all seven days of creation in order, starting with light and ending with rest in paradise.

I did read your other thread on nebula something or other (I'm not a scientist, so much of it went over my head), but I don't see how it contradicts any of what I wrote here. Can you give me a specific example? Preferably in layman's terms?

 

This a a TextBook example of people using science as their Hermeneutic Filter.

 
The heavens declare the glory of God. When those christian scientists in the past observed the world and realized it wasn't flat or it wasn't the center of the universe, they changed their worldview to fit with this observation. Their view of the universe expanded, and so did their view of God.

I don't see how this is any different.

It only becomes a danger if I use science to replace God or change the fundamental Truths that we live by, which I am clearly not doing.

 

Note we didn't touch on:  First there was nothing....... and then it exploded 

 
Mystifying, isn't it? Astounding. All that power and glory in just a single thought? Amazing.  
 
The very idea of it makes me tremble in awe.

You believe God created the universe out of nothing, right?  Ex Nihilo and all that.  Correct me if I'm wrong.
 

 

 

"Let light be,"

 
Yes but with the Big Bang Scenario......"Light" would have already been!! .....The Explosion.   See It?

 

verse 2: "and darkness was over the surface..." <--- referring to the earth

verse 3: "And God said 'Let there be light,' and there was light."

The earth was shrouded in darkness. The bible doesn't refer to there being darkness absolutely everywhere.

My post accounts for this, as well.

 

 

I sort of imagine....and.....And that is how I imagine it.

 
This is the Problem Sheniy....... "Imagine".  There is enough "Light" in Scripture to summarily dismiss this rather easily.  Couple that with the Inherent basic science and logic contradictions the theory has with how vigorously and dogmatic this nonsense is defended; well; the writing is.... as they say (Or as Daniel says), on the Wall.

 

We were created in the image of the Creator.  This is where our creativity comes from.  Creativity requires imagination.  There is nothing wrong with using this God-given ability.

 

I have a vivid imagination, and God uses it to help me see Him better.  However, like I said, it is just my own speculation on the way God created everything.  I wasn't there, so I can't know the details for sure.  I like speculating and wondering and imagining in order to try and wrap my limited human mind around the vast awesomeness that is God.  It is, IMHO, a form of worship.

 

What I won't do is tell you that you must agree with my speculations.  That wouldn't be fair to you.

 

 

 

 

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

 

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I believe our disagreement comes from our own personal, fallible interpretations of the written text. If you can show me proof beyond doubt that I am wrong, I am more than willing to change my view. I just haven't seen that proof yet.

 

What Specifically?

 

 

I don't think that everything in the evolutionary theory ultimately rejects God.

 

I do.  But again, you have to provide Specific Examples of some of the "Everything" you're referring too.

 

 

The base component of the big bang theory is that the universe has a beginning and that it came from practically nothing, which I believe is very much in line with the bible.

 

Yes. Conceptually they're more or less the same.  The "devil" so to speak, is in the details. 

 

 

Note that in my very speculative (I do not deny it) example, the sun is made after the vegetation, on the "fourth day", along with the moon and the rest of the planets.

 

This lines up with The WORD but it doesn't line up with the Big Bang

 

 

if not a rapid expansion from nothing, then how did the universe happen? I'm not asking who: we both know it's God. I'm asking how He did it. Specifically. Where did the stars and galaxies and planets and nebulae come from?

 

 

The Earth First.  Don't know "HOW" other than HE Spoke it.  As for where it "Matter" came from....pure conjecture from me:  From Nothing

 

 

I did read your other thread on nebula something or other (I'm not a scientist, so much of it went over my head), but I don't see how it contradicts any of what I wrote here. Can you give me a specific example? Preferably in layman's terms?

 

Please post the Specific Issue and I'll try and explain it.

 

The heavens declare the glory of God. When those christian scientists in the past observed the world and realized it wasn't flat or it wasn't the center of the universe, they changed their worldview to fit with this observation. Their view of the universe expanded, and so did their view of God.

 

They weren't reading close enough, IMHO.  Those things are spoken of somewhat in the WORD.  However, each will issue does need to be evaluated on it's own merit.

 

 

You believe God created the universe out of nothing, right?  Ex Nihilo and all that.  Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Yes, that's my belief.  Can't support it However.

 

 

Creativity requires imagination.  There is nothing wrong with using this God-given ability.

 

No there isn't.  But it depends on where it is being applied.  It should not be applied to Imagining other "scenarios" that are in direct contradiction to The WORD.

 

 

 

I wasn't there, so I can't know the details for sure.

 

IMHO, there is enough there in Genesis to understand the basic framework and to rule out "Concocted" scenarios.

 

And each issue would have to be evaluated specifically.  Generalizations drive me to drink!!.....Water 

 

 

What I won't do is tell you that you must agree with my speculations.  That wouldn't be fair to you.

 

Agreement with me has nothing to do with it IMHO, Are you IN-Line with The WORD is the question..... that needs to be asked of One-Self.  If I fall out Of-Line with The WORD, I would expect you to correct me quickly.