Can you answer this question?

[Kabowd]

Who said anything about having to pray a prayer to be saved?

[Guest hubertdorm]

Hehehe. So why does the Pastor lead those through such? It's pointless isn't it? In fact, since a person doesn't need to pray such a prayer, the addition is obviously unbiblical. Funny that these churches are claiming to be following the Word.

[Joe@actsii]

Hello and good evening to everyone. My name is Joe and this is my first time posting. Actually I just found this site tonight. I have looked around and found it very interesting.

I just wanted to say on the subject of salvation & baptism that there are many verses on the subject and too many people/churches read or quote just one or maybe a few. You can make the Word of God seem to say a lot of things if you do this. I think that some people/churches do this on purpose and many do it by accident. The Word can be like a puzzle. If you only use some of the pieces the picture will come out incorrect. We need to have all of the pieces to see the real picture.

Also a lot of times we do things out of tradition and then try to find scripture to back it up, when we should go to the scriptures first and then let our doctrine and lives fall into line with the Word. This is an interesting forum and subject and I look forward to hopefully learning from each other.

[Leonard]

Welcome, Joe! Glad to have you aboard!!!

[apothanein kerdos]

It talks about being baptized into the HOly Spirit. We have such a believe that Baptism automatically means "into water" or "through water" but all it means is "immersed" or "purified into." In other words, when it talks about being baptized in the scriptures Paul is using symbolism. In the ancient days pagans would baptize themselves into a certain belief to show that they were completely sold out to it. Paul is telling these early believes that their spirit is to be baptized into Christ so that Christ has complete ownership. The water baptism is nothing more than tradition to show people that we mean business. Water baptism for pagan cults stopped after Constantine's conversion and paganism was outlawed.

[Joe@actsii]

Super Jew why do you think that Paul is only using symbolism? The Bible does not say that.

[kroschild]

Ok, so we all know that on the day of Pentecost 3,000 Jews were baptized. (From baptize, meaning to immerse.)

Acts 2:41

Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

Ever wonder where they found water in the middle of Jerusalem to baptize all those people? There were actually baptistries in Jerusalem! It was a common practice of the time to baptize as a sign of washing oneself clean--certain groups within Judaism practised this. And with Jesus' constant attempts to reach people on their level, it makes sense he would choose something they recognized, right?

So the apostles continued what Jesus himself did on earth, and commanded believers to be baptized:

Acts 2

38Peter replied,

[Guest hubertdorm]

No one here will find fault with the belief that the sacrifice of Jesus, the shedding of blood, the gift of mercy and grace by God is what atones for our sin, what brings forgiveness for our wickedness, and delivers us from the ultimate judgment.

When does the blood of Christ cleanse a person from such iniquity? When he or she believes in the Christ? Yes, I believe so. But even still, when does a person place his or her faith in Christ? It is my opinion that the New Testament pattern of placing faith in Jesus our Lord occurred at the point of baptism in water.

We use the terms, "faith," and "believe," and "trust" interchangably, mistakenly sometimes, again in my opinion. These words are synonymns, but we should be careful to know what each implies when. The context of a passage reveals what is being described.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of the faith that saved us, I believe they are talking about the trust and hope we place in Jesus that he has delivered us from sin, that he alone brings salvation, and that his cross is the final atonement. This trust is inclusive not only of this conviction but of the guidance of the Spirit by which we are to walk. This describes the phrase, "Living by faith." Those who have this faith are called "believers," those who have believed the Gospel.

However, sometimes "belief" is in the context of acknowledgment. It is the equivalent of saying, "Yes, this is the truth," or "Yes, I believe you." It is nothing more than a conclusion of mind, regardless of whether it is accompanied by conviction or not. There are many people who would say, "Yes, I believe that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the world and is the only way to the Father," and they certainly do believe it! Yet, they have not entered into a life of faith. I'm not calling them hypocrites.

ie. I was raised going to church three times a week. I learned the parables of Jesus and the stories of the Old Testament. I learned the 10 Commandments and read about Jesus and his Father. I believed that Jesus was the Son of God and that he died on a cross for the sins of man, and that no one can be saved apart from him. But, I wasn't a believer in the way it is used of those in the church who have been redeemed by the Lamb. I simply knew these as facts.

James described such a faith or belief when he wrote

2:14 Can such a faith save him? and then

2:19 You believe that there is one God? Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

The simple acknowledgement of Jesus is not enough to save a person. Hence, we are not saved by "faith only."

[kroschild]

James 2:19

You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that-and shudder.

How can belief be all there is?

[Guest hubertdorm]

I brought up the subject of the "Sinner's Prayer" to illustrate a point. The "Sinner's Prayer" is a truly modern practice. They vary, but it doesn't really matter. It was created to remove the emphasis on rituals, and highlight faith. To rephrase, the "Sinner's Prayer" is supposed to illustrate salvation by faith as opposed to salvation by works/ritual.

Unfortunately, the "Sinner's Prayer" itself is a ritual. If acknowledging Jesus as Lord is all it takes to be saved, an unbeliever in church would become redeemed before he/she took the first steps towards the front during an alter call, or alternative situation in which the "Sinner's Prayer" is used.

The view of the "Sinner's Prayer" is that it is the time in which a person (who has already acknowledged in the heart that Jesus is Lord) places his/her faith into Jesus Christ so that Jesus can come into the heart and make it new. Okay, I am not totally against this idea.

However, I do think that this is what water baptism is supposed to be. It's not a symbol of Spiritual baptism. That takes scriptural juggling to prove such a point. The apostles never spoke in figurative, cryptic, or symbolic language when speaking of baptism. Why should we?

Only rarely would a practicer of water baptism admit to believing that water saves. Of course it doesn't. Water doesn't wash away sins. But, baptism in water was the "Sinner's Prayer" of the church, that is, baptism was the point at which a person placed faith in Jesus and surrendered his/her life.

Thus, baptism in water doesn't save, but is the point at which they were saved. Hence the urgency of water baptism. It was never delayed for any reason.

Question for those who follow faith only: Would you delay in praying the "Sinner's Prayer" with a person who wanted to be in Christ, who wanted to start anew?

Of course you wouldn't. This is why many churches will baptize immediately-- for this is when a person will place faith in Jesus. Why condemn those who say they were saved upon baptism? That is the time in which they committed themselves to God. They were saved at baptism, not before. Can a person be saved before? I would grudgingly admit so, because I believe we should follow the NT pattern and abandon the "Sinner's Prayer." Think about it. It is an unbiblical replacement for baptism.