Predestination vs free choice

[Openly Curious]

 

Predestination in the Bible has NOTHING  to do with who is or is not saved.   Predestination in every use of the word pertains to what God has predestined the beleiver to become.  It is not about predestinating who will become a believer. Predestination in the Bible is connected to service, not salvation.

 

I agree. The Bible says we are predestined

1.  To be conformed to the image of Christ (Rom. 8:29) 2.  For adoption  (Eph. 1:5)  3. To be to the praise of His glory (Eph. 1:11-12)

Predestined/Elect/Chosen are speaking about AFTER salvation, not prior.

 

I too agree that predestination is dealing with what the saints are to become after being made a new creature in Christ Jesus.  It is only the inward work of God that allows us to produce the good fruits (works) of the Spirit in our lives.  We can only serve God because of the inward change on the inside of our hearts.  Apostle Paul never called the works of the law "good works".

We are not saved by, but created unto  good works.  This is the mystery.

[Lek]

 

Interesting subject...

 

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. (Ephesians 1:3-6)

 

How do you read this? Just curious...

I read this to mean that before the creation of the world God chose Christ to be the savior of the world and we are saved by being "in him". In otherwards, he determined that all who were "in Christ" would be saved. Paul's emphasis is not on God choosing us per se, but the fact that he predestinated that all who were saved would be saved through Jesus Christ. In this one paragraph he emphasized that our salvation is "in Christ" four times:

1 - "in the heavenly places 'in Christ' "

2 - "chose us 'in him' before the foundation of the world"

3 - "predestined us to adoption as sons 'by Jesus Christ' "

4 - "made us 'accepted in the Beloved' "

We are free to make the choice to believe in him or not.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Lek

[Guest shiloh357]

Interesting subject...

 

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. (Ephesians 1:3-6)

 

How do you read this? Just curious...

Very simple.   Notice what is says we were chosen to be:   We were chosen to be holy and blame.ess before Him in love AND we are predestined to the adoption as  sons.   This is talking about what God chosen, before the foundation of the world, that Christians should be come.  it is not saying that God chose who would become Christians.  The word "predestine" means "to set off beforehand" and refers to what God has predestined for believers.  

 

The word "adoption" can be kind of confusing if we don’t understand what it meant in the first century.  It means, “to set as an adult.” Paul is using, as an illustration, the Roman practice of adopting a son and then not only bequeathing him all of his possessions, but giving him his civil status as a adult citizen; Thus God takes a believing sinner, regenerates him, and by means of this makes him His “born” child.  Then He takes this child and places him in a legal position as an adult son. We thus become joint-heirs with Christ, having been raised to a civil status as adult sons, in which we become heirs of God, inheriting jointly with Christ all that He possesses as an heir of God the Father by virtue of His Sonship and work on the Cross.

 

Simply put, before the foundation of the world, God already the plan of salvation figured out.  And in that plan, He chose for Christians to be holy and blameless before Him in love and in doing so He predestined (chose beforehand) us to the adoption as sons.

[ajchurney]

As in any doctrinal issue involving time, I believe the answer is bound up in the nature and character of God, in that He is both Eternal and Omniscient, or more acurately, He is omniscient because He is eternal and omnipresent by nature. God created the context of time as much as He did matter and all of the physical laws that govern matter, space and time. The nature of 100% accurate prophecy, fore-ordination, predestination, and other depend upon our understanding of eternality. Since being outside of time (timeless) is beyond our experience altogether, we can only stretch ourselves to comprehend this conceptually, but the idea is simple enough that I believe we can see how this begins to make sense of some biblical conundrums.God's holiness makes Him intrinsically separate from what He creates, hence the existence of freewill and evil, but He is also infinitely above and beyond anything that He creates. His creations reflect Himself, but He has made the universe in such a way that choice is a real and distinct possibility for certain intelligent beings, from which God has ordained that obedience to His revelations is faith in Him and love for Him, whereas rebellion to His revelations is the opposite. Angels had this choice at least at one point, and mankind lives in this reality of choice continually. 

Hence, I conclude that the title of the thread is actually misleading, in that there is no predestination "vs." freewill, but only a right understanding of how these two biblical realities co-exist and intersect. We have freewill, and God predestines according to our freewill and His eternal foreknowledge. He is Creator, and we are the created, He the potter, and we the clay, yet living clay with real freewill choice. His foreknowledge of our choice does not then make the choice invalid or illusory. It is simply a matter of His vastly superior point of reference in comparison to ours.

 

Eternal blessings in Christ Jesus!

Andy

[Izzel]

I think Jeremiah had a choice.

His job was predestinated.

Did Jesus have a choice ?

[Izzel]

 

 

We also have Romans 8:28-30 that speaks to predestination.

 

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

The steps, or explanations is:

1. foreknew
2. predestined
3. conformed
4. called
5. justified
6. glorified

It is interesting to see Paul point out that God first foreknew before He predestined.  I do not believe God just picked and chose people, I believe He looked down through time to see who would choose His salvation; therefore, He foreknew before He predestined.

What are your thoughts on Pharoh and Essau ?

 

 

Can you be more specific?  I can say they both made their choices.

 

Romans 9:11-23

King James Version (KJV)

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

 

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

 

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

 

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

 

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

 

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

 

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

 

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

 

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

 

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

 

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

 

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

[Izzel]

As in any doctrinal issue involving time, I believe the answer is bound up in the nature and character of God, in that He is both Eternal and Omniscient, or more acurately, He is omniscient because He is eternal and omnipresent by nature. God created the context of time as much as He did matter and all of the physical laws that govern matter, space and time. The nature of 100% accurate prophecy, fore-ordination, predestination, and other depend upon our understanding of eternality. Since being outside of time (timeless) is beyond our experience altogether, we can only stretch ourselves to comprehend this conceptually, but the idea is simple enough that I believe we can see how this begins to make sense of some biblical conundrums.God's holiness makes Him intrinsically separate from what He creates, hence the existence of freewill and evil, but He is also infinitely above and beyond anything that He creates. His creations reflect Himself, but He has made the universe in such a way that choice is a real and distinct possibility for certain intelligent beings, from which God has ordained that obedience to His revelations is faith in Him and love for Him, whereas rebellion to His revelations is the opposite. Angels had this choice at least at one point, and mankind lives in this reality of choice continually. 

Hence, I conclude that the title of the thread is actually misleading, in that there is no predestination "vs." freewill, but only a right understanding of how these two biblical realities co-exist and intersect. We have freewill, and God predestines according to our freewill and His eternal foreknowledge. He is Creator, and we are the created, He the potter, and we the clay, yet living clay with real freewill choice. His foreknowledge of our choice does not then make the choice invalid or illusory. It is simply a matter of His vastly superior point of reference in comparison to ours.

 

Eternal blessings in Christ Jesus!

Andy

 

 

Could John the Baptise have failed his mission ?

 

Did he have a choice not to preach the gospel of repentance ?

Was Pharoh predestined and did he make a choice to repent 

[Izzel]

 

Interesting subject...

 

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. (Ephesians 1:3-6)

 

How do you read this? Just curious...

Very simple.   Notice what is says we were chosen to be:   We were chosen to be holy and blame.ess before Him in love AND we are predestined to the adoption as  sons.   This is talking about what God chosen, before the foundation of the world, that Christians should be come.  it is not saying that God chose who would become Christians.  The word "predestine" means "to set off beforehand" and refers to what God has predestined for believers.  

 

The word "adoption" can be kind of confusing if we don’t understand what it meant in the first century.  It means, “to set as an adult.” Paul is using, as an illustration, the Roman practice of adopting a son and then not only bequeathing him all of his possessions, but giving him his civil status as a adult citizen; Thus God takes a believing sinner, regenerates him, and by means of this makes him His “born” child.  Then He takes this child and places him in a legal position as an adult son. We thus become joint-heirs with Christ, having been raised to a civil status as adult sons, in which we become heirs of God, inheriting jointly with Christ all that He possesses as an heir of God the Father by virtue of His Sonship and work on the Cross.

 

Simply put, before the foundation of the world, God already the plan of salvation figured out.  And in that plan, He chose for Christians to be holy and blameless before Him in love and in doing so He predestined (chose beforehand) us to the adoption as sons.

 

Could David  have lost salvation ?

[ajchurney]

 

As in any doctrinal issue involving time, I believe the answer is bound up in the nature and character of God, in that He is both Eternal and Omniscient, or more acurately, He is omniscient because He is eternal and omnipresent by nature. God created the context of time as much as He did matter and all of the physical laws that govern matter, space and time. The nature of 100% accurate prophecy, fore-ordination, predestination, and other depend upon our understanding of eternality. Since being outside of time (timeless) is beyond our experience altogether, we can only stretch ourselves to comprehend this conceptually, but the idea is simple enough that I believe we can see how this begins to make sense of some biblical conundrums.God's holiness makes Him intrinsically separate from what He creates, hence the existence of freewill and evil, but He is also infinitely above and beyond anything that He creates. His creations reflect Himself, but He has made the universe in such a way that choice is a real and distinct possibility for certain intelligent beings, from which God has ordained that obedience to His revelations is faith in Him and love for Him, whereas rebellion to His revelations is the opposite. Angels had this choice at least at one point, and mankind lives in this reality of choice continually. 

Hence, I conclude that the title of the thread is actually misleading, in that there is no predestination "vs." freewill, but only a right understanding of how these two biblical realities co-exist and intersect. We have freewill, and God predestines according to our freewill and His eternal foreknowledge. He is Creator, and we are the created, He the potter, and we the clay, yet living clay with real freewill choice. His foreknowledge of our choice does not then make the choice invalid or illusory. It is simply a matter of His vastly superior point of reference in comparison to ours.

 

Eternal blessings in Christ Jesus!

Andy

 

 

Could John the Baptise have failed his mission ?

 

Did he have a choice not to preach the gospel of repentance ?

Was Pharoh predestined and did he make a choice to repent 

 

If God revealed that John would do something, then it is sure, because God can neither lie nor "miss it". Of course John chose every single thing he ever did or said. Just because God knew, and even revealed some of what He knew concerning John does not mean He Predetermined (caused) the choices. 

 

Predestination is according to foreknowledge and eternal reality of God. Pharaoh made choices, and God knew what they were going to be and did not force the choice. God created the context and possibilities in which the choices could be made. Is it the way I am explaining it that is hard? If so , I am sorry

[ajchurney]

 

 

Interesting subject...

 

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. (Ephesians 1:3-6)

 

How do you read this? Just curious...

Very simple.   Notice what is says we were chosen to be:   We were chosen to be holy and blame.ess before Him in love AND we are predestined to the adoption as  sons.   This is talking about what God chosen, before the foundation of the world, that Christians should be come.  it is not saying that God chose who would become Christians.  The word "predestine" means "to set off beforehand" and refers to what God has predestined for believers.  

 

The word "adoption" can be kind of confusing if we don’t understand what it meant in the first century.  It means, “to set as an adult.” Paul is using, as an illustration, the Roman practice of adopting a son and then not only bequeathing him all of his possessions, but giving him his civil status as a adult citizen; Thus God takes a believing sinner, regenerates him, and by means of this makes him His “born” child.  Then He takes this child and places him in a legal position as an adult son. We thus become joint-heirs with Christ, having been raised to a civil status as adult sons, in which we become heirs of God, inheriting jointly with Christ all that He possesses as an heir of God the Father by virtue of His Sonship and work on the Cross.

 

Simply put, before the foundation of the world, God already the plan of salvation figured out.  And in that plan, He chose for Christians to be holy and blameless before Him in love and in doing so He predestined (chose beforehand) us to the adoption as sons.

 

Could David  have lost salvation ?

 

Bro, since David is dead and in Glory, what difference does the question make? If David had not repented, he would not have turned out to be the David we now know in scripture and his faith would have been insufficient and failed, but it did not. And now his present and future have become our past and so it is finished and done.