PRE-TRIBBERS Please Explain

[Spock]

Gods Word says only 2 resurrections, it says nothing about phases.

 

 

=============================================================

 

You're right, from GOD'S perspective there are 2 Resurrections.

 

Apparently HE'S not counting as "Resurrections" :

 

Lazarus (Technically The First One) unless there's another/others I'm unaware of.

 

How about Jesus' Resurrection?  or.....

 

(Matthew 27:52-53) "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,  {53} And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

 

That sounds like "resurrections" to me 

 

How about the Martyr's underneath the Alter in Rev 6?

 

It appears there are "resurrections" by our definition....... but it also appears GOD has something different in mind.

Well said. I tried to tell our brother to not get so hung up in the "two" resurrections, and that he would lose sight of the the big picture and get swallowed up in the details. Sigh! I guess he didn't believe me. Nothing wrong with that though, it just hurts. Sniff sniff

[ENOCH2010]

All those resurrections you list happened well before the book of revelation was written, so why would John count them with the 2 resurrections spoken about in chapter 20. He didn't, he doesn't

even count the resurrection of the 2 witnesses of revelation in his list, he only lists the 2 resurrections in context with the second coming as the first resurrection (prior to the 1000 year reign) and the second resurrection(after the 1000 year reign), so why should we add all those resurrections into the first. The sooner the pre-trib camp realizes their doctrine is false, the better they will be. The Bible says nothing about a pre-trib resurrection, so there can't be a pre-trib rapture. The Bible plainly tells of a post trib resurrection at the second coming called the first resurrection, there is the rapture in plain KJV English. Rev. 20

[Enoch2021]

All those resurrections you list happened well before the book of revelation was written, so why would John count them with the 2 resurrections spoken about in chapter 20. He didn't, he doesn't

even count the resurrection of the 2 witnesses of revelation in his list, he only lists the 2 resurrections in context with the second coming as the first resurrection (prior to the 1000 year reign) and the second resurrection(after the 1000 year reign), so why should we add all those resurrections into the first. The sooner the pre-trib camp realizes their doctrine is false, the better they will be. The Bible says nothing about a pre-trib resurrection, so there can't be a pre-trib rapture. The Bible plainly tells of a post trib resurrection at the second coming called the first resurrection, there is the rapture in plain KJV English. Rev. 20

 

====================================================================

 

This is the only response I could think of......

 

Hope you find the TRUTH

[rollinTHUNDER]

Hey Enoch, I haven't read this entire thread, but who do the post tribbies believe will be at the sheep and goats judgment if Jesus Raptured the believers just before he returns? It seems to me there would have to be only goats. I speculate they must believe the people who are not believers but also did not take the mark of the beast may be sheep. Is this correct?

I'm not sure what Enoch's answer will be, but I believe they are entire nations

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all NATIONS: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left

I think it's important to remember that the sheep and goats is taken out of the parable of talents, to show the sign of the end of the age, which is the conclusion of Christ' disciple's question in (Matt. 24:3). But it's just as important to know that parables are just little stories that contain little clues for the wise to understand, yet the foolish will not get it. They aren't supposed to be taken in the literal sense. The sheep and goats is a story that points to Armageddon and Joel 3:2, when God gathers all nations (armies) to battle near Jerusalem. Then they will turn and attack Christ and His army. All of these are among the goats that will be killed as judgment that keeps them from entering the millennial kingdom. He won't bring entire nations to this battle, nor will He judge the land that they come from then. Included in their numbers will be the beast, the false prophet and everyone who takes the mark will be killed as well. This will be about half of the world's population when all is said and done. The other half are the survivors of the nations that did not take the mark of the beast and the remnant that flees to the mountains after the abomination of desolation (sheep). This is the final judgment seen in Rev. 11:18. This is not the Church being judged here. The sheep that enter into the millennium here are not saints, for they will be ruled over by the saints that return with Christ.

Judgment begins with the House of God (1 Pet.4:17), so if you want to understand Christ rendering His judgment of the saints then you need to back up. Saints judgment/rewards begin at the gathering of the elect (Matt.24:30-31), which Christ provides many angles in the parables that follow all the way down to (Matt.25:30).

Cheers

Thanks for that. We could be in agreement, because I relate the sheep and goats judgment to the Jehosaphat judgment of Joel 3. But its entirely possible that the Jehosaphat judgment is also the Armageddon/winepress judgment as well.

Yes, I see them as different views or angles of the same event.

 

 

I agree with you about the saints judgment, for two reasons I cannot relate the saints judgment to the sheep.

Firstly the sheep are positively judged for how they treat the "brethren". To see the sheep as the brethren to me is not consistent with the wording of the parable.

Bulls-eye! Nice catch! Many people see the word "sheep" and think "Church" and that God will protect the entire Church until the second coming. But they are entering the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world (millennium), but before this, the servants who were rewarded entered into the joy of the Lord (rapture). So obviously, the least of His brethren are the servants that were not ready and left (martyrs). Many pre-tribbers don't count them as part of the Church. Also, we know this is also a clue about the second coming because His title changed from the Son of Man to the King (verses 34 & 40).

 

Secondly if the sheep are Christians, we are separated at the resurrection. To be gathered again into some sort of judgment to be separated again makes no sense, the population of earth is split at the rapture, some go into the clouds, and others are left behind.

Amen, brother! Two will be in a field, one will be taken and the other left. We see this separation again when the thief comes to break-up the house (Matt.24:43), then the wicked or lazy servant will be cut asunder (in two pieces) - vs 51. Then the ten virgins also.

This is also why the rapture and second coming are two separate events that can not occur on the same day without messing up the feasts.

Cheers

[ARGOSY]

Hey Enoch, I haven't read this entire thread, but who do the post tribbies believe will be at the sheep and goats judgment if Jesus Raptured the believers just before he returns? It seems to me there would have to be only goats. I speculate they must believe the people who are not believers but also did not take the mark of the beast may be sheep. Is this correct?

I'm not sure what Enoch's answer will be, but I believe they are entire nations

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all NATIONS: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left

I think it's important to remember that the sheep and goats is taken out of the parable of talents, to show the sign of the end of the age, which is the conclusion of Christ' disciple's question in (Matt. 24:3). But it's just as important to know that parables are just little stories that contain little clues for the wise to understand, yet the foolish will not get it. They aren't supposed to be taken in the literal sense. The sheep and goats is a story that points to Armageddon and Joel 3:2, when God gathers all nations (armies) to battle near Jerusalem. Then they will turn and attack Christ and His army. All of these are among the goats that will be killed as judgment that keeps them from entering the millennial kingdom. He won't bring entire nations to this battle, nor will He judge the land that they come from then. Included in their numbers will be the beast, the false prophet and everyone who takes the mark will be killed as well. This will be about half of the world's population when all is said and done. The other half are the survivors of the nations that did not take the mark of the beast and the remnant that flees to the mountains after the abomination of desolation (sheep). This is the final judgment seen in Rev. 11:18. This is not the Church being judged here. The sheep that enter into the millennium here are not saints, for they will be ruled over by the saints that return with Christ.

Judgment begins with the House of God (1 Pet.4:17), so if you want to understand Christ rendering His judgment of the saints then you need to back up. Saints judgment/rewards begin at the gathering of the elect (Matt.24:30-31), which Christ provides many angles in the parables that follow all the way down to (Matt.25:30).

Cheers

Thanks for that. We could be in agreement, because I relate the sheep and goats judgment to the Jehosaphat judgment of Joel 3. But its entirely possible that the Jehosaphat judgment is also the Armageddon/winepress judgment as well.

Yes, I see them as different views or angles of the same event.

 

 

I agree with you about the saints judgment, for two reasons I cannot relate the saints judgment to the sheep.

Firstly the sheep are positively judged for how they treat the "brethren". To see the sheep as the brethren to me is not consistent with the wording of the parable.

Bulls-eye! Nice catch! Many people see the word "sheep" and think "Church" and that God will protect the entire Church until the second coming. But they are entering the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world (millennium), but before this, the servants who were rewarded entered into the joy of the Lord (rapture). So obviously, the least of His brethren are the servants that were not ready and left (martyrs). Many pre-tribbers don't count them as part of the Church. Also, we know this is also a clue about the second coming because His title changed from the Son of Man to the King (verses 34 & 40).

 

Secondly if the sheep are Christians, we are separated at the resurrection. To be gathered again into some sort of judgment to be separated again makes no sense, the population of earth is split at the rapture, some go into the clouds, and others are left behind.

Amen, brother! Two will be in a field, one will be taken and the other left. We see this separation again when the thief comes to break-up the house (Matt.24:43), then the wicked or lazy servant will be cut asunder (in two pieces) - vs 51. Then the ten virgins also.

This is also why the rapture and second coming are two separate events that can not occur on the same day without messing up the feasts.

Cheers

Lol! well I'm not sure of your last comment, but glad we agree on the rest.

[rollinTHUNDER]

 

 

 

 

 

Hey Enoch, I haven't read this entire thread, but who do the post tribbies believe will be at the sheep and goats judgment if Jesus Raptured the believers just before he returns? It seems to me there would have to be only goats. I speculate they must believe the people who are not believers but also did not take the mark of the beast may be sheep. Is this correct?

I'm not sure what Enoch's answer will be, but I believe they are entire nations

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all NATIONS: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left

 

I think it's important to remember that the sheep and goats is taken out of the parable of talents, to show the sign of the end of the age, which is the conclusion of Christ' disciple's question in (Matt. 24:3). But it's just as important to know that parables are just little stories that contain little clues for the wise to understand, yet the foolish will not get it. They aren't supposed to be taken in the literal sense. The sheep and goats is a story that points to Armageddon and Joel 3:2, when God gathers all nations (armies) to battle near Jerusalem. Then they will turn and attack Christ and His army. All of these are among the goats that will be killed as judgment that keeps them from entering the millennial kingdom. He won't bring entire nations to this battle, nor will He judge the land that they come from then. Included in their numbers will be the beast, the false prophet and everyone who takes the mark will be killed as well. This will be about half of the world's population when all is said and done. The other half are the survivors of the nations that did not take the mark of the beast and the remnant that flees to the mountains after the abomination of desolation (sheep). This is the final judgment seen in Rev. 11:18. This is not the Church being judged here. The sheep that enter into the millennium here are not saints, for they will be ruled over by the saints that return with Christ.

Judgment begins with the House of God (1 Pet.4:17), so if you want to understand Christ rendering His judgment of the saints then you need to back up. Saints judgment/rewards begin at the gathering of the elect (Matt.24:30-31), which Christ provides many angles in the parables that follow all the way down to (Matt.25:30).

Cheers

 

Thanks for that. We could be in agreement, because I relate the sheep and goats judgment to the Jehosaphat judgment of Joel 3. But its entirely possible that the Jehosaphat judgment is also the Armageddon/winepress judgment as well.

 

Yes, I see them as different views or angles of the same event.

 

 

I agree with you about the saints judgment, for two reasons I cannot relate the saints judgment to the sheep.

Firstly the sheep are positively judged for how they treat the "brethren". To see the sheep as the brethren to me is not consistent with the wording of the parable.

Bulls-eye! Nice catch! Many people see the word "sheep" and think "Church" and that God will protect the entire Church until the second coming. But they are entering the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world (millennium), but before this, the servants who were rewarded entered into the joy of the Lord (rapture). So obviously, the least of His brethren are the servants that were not ready and left (martyrs). Many pre-tribbers don't count them as part of the Church. Also, we know this is also a clue about the second coming because His title changed from the Son of Man to the King (verses 34 & 40).

 

Secondly if the sheep are Christians, we are separated at the resurrection. To be gathered again into some sort of judgment to be separated again makes no sense, the population of earth is split at the rapture, some go into the clouds, and others are left behind.

Amen, brother! Two will be in a field, one will be taken and the other left. We see this separation again when the thief comes to break-up the house (Matt.24:43), then the wicked or lazy servant will be cut asunder (in two pieces) - vs 51. Then the ten virgins also.

This is also why the rapture and second coming are two separate events that can not occur on the same day without messing up the feasts.

Cheers

 

Lol! well I'm not sure of your last comment, but glad we agree on the rest.

 

Okay, I see you still see Matt. 24:29-31 as both the rapture & second coming. In my view it's only the rapture, and when the Lord begins rendering His judgment of the saints (1 Pet.4:17). Those faithful servants who are ready will be taken, but the martyrs will be left and it's going to take more than a day to kill them all. The second coming won't come into play until Matt.25:31, which is the judgment of the nations (survivors).

 

One thing that we should consider is that after all of the martyrs are killed, this is the end of the first resurrection (Rev.20:4).  After that time, God will protect the sheep until the second coming.  These are the men that will want to die, but death will flee from them (Rev.9:6), but all of the goats will be killed.

An easy way to remember this is:

the rapture = Matt. 24:31

second coming = Matt. 25:31

Cheers

[Donibm]

I have never understood the pre-trib position on these two chapters. To me they both indicate that the rapture occurs at the second coming after a time of trouble, I would just like pre-tribbers to explain how they interpret the texts. I generally believe the bible is better understood taking the more obvious reading of the text because it wasn't written for rocket scientists and Greek scholars, and so I'm really interested what you have to say:

This seems to be saying that pre-trib believers will get their relief/rest at the second coming on a day of vengeance and punishment for the ungodly:

2 Thess 1

we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe

This seems to be saying that gathering of pre-trib believers and the second coming are the same day of Christ, and only occur after the man of sin is revealed:

2 Thess 2

concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

What say you pre-tribbers on these two chapters?

Sigh.

 

Once again, there is not such thing as a "pre-tribber"

 

All CHRISTIANS.

 

Now, the problem is not our belief, it is your understanding.

 

PROBLEM ONE

Just because you see the word "tribulation" doesn't mean that the passage is talking about THEE Tribulation.  

 

Just because someone is anointed, doesn't make them THEE Anointed One (Messiah).

 

Just because someone is antichrist, does not make them THEE antichrist.

 

All saints who truly serve God suffer tribulation, or if you want a different word, persecution.  Have you never studied Church history?  You should.  Don't you know that the first tribulation was terrible?  And that the Catholic Inquisitions are (all Rome) has been greatly downplayed?  Have you never read the Jesuit Oath of Induction? Have you not known about the persecution even by the Judaizers?

 

The Scriptures are clearly talking about giving the WICKED Tribulation for all of their persecution of the saints.  Have you not read in Revelation concerning the prayers of the saints going up before God, which are the PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS? Have you not noticed what FOLLOWS?  Pure Judgment and retribution!  An angry God indeed ... right after the prayers of the saints go before His nostrils.  Rev 8.

 

 

PROBLEM TWO

You have not established WHO the Book was written to and WHY it was written.  You have not established why 2 Thess was even written to begin with.  You wouldn't need to create this thread just by knowing why the Books were written, what was going on in that time, and what it was in response to.

 

 

PROBLEM THREE

Thess 2 is clear.  Paul was assuring them that they had NOT missed the rapture (as some were preaching) because there wasn't even a great falling away from.  And that part is the most important thing of all end time prophecies.  With ALL the prophecies that I know, there is only one that suggest that it will never, ever happen until this one particular thing occurs ... and this is the Scripture that does that.

 

That day will NOT come UNTIL there is a Great Falling Away (from Truth and Biblical doctrine).  Where are all these silly winds of doctrine and crazy beliefs coming from?  Always on some internet page too.  Always.  Some of the craziest things I've seen come from religious forums ... to the point that I am convinced that many are unchurched, unlearned, untaught, but use the Internet to 'vent' and give their opinions of the Word.

 

It has nothing to do with the actual Tribulation Period.  All Paul was doing was settling the fears of his audience because there were others who were preaching that they all MISSED THE RAPTURE.  Paul was telling them that it hadn't taken place yet, and that it would not take place until the Spirit was removed.  That the second coming certainly would not happen until after the antichrist has had his reign.

 

Did you not understand the question of the 12 disciples?  They did not ask Jesus ONE question, they asked Him TWO:

 

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the SIGN OF THY COMING, {{{AND}}} OF THE END OF THE WORLD?

 

Jesus proceeded to answer the first question from 4 - 14 and He ended with, "and then shall the end come"

 

But wait!  Do you see Him continuing to speak after that?  First He outlines a handful of end time prophecies that predate the Rapture, and He clearly says that end will come (it is the end for us saints).  But now He is answering their second question as He is specifically talking about the Jews who will experience the Tribulation in verses.  In short, He isn't outlining Tribulation as it effects the world, as clearly seen in Revelation, but instead He is speaking specifically to the JEWS.  Jacobs Trouble.

 

 

PROBLEM FOUR

Another of your problems is that you don't seem to know that Jacobs Trouble is part of all this.  Jeremiah 30:7 There are elements that apply only to the Jews.  People who don't really know the Scriptures get all sort of things intertwined and contorted.

 

Rapture vs Second Coming vs Jacobs Trouble ... Uncountable Number vs Number Under the Alter vs 144,000

 

The Church vs Israel

 

For years I've seen people dot their T's and cross their I's.  They just keep getting them mixed up.

 

 

Jesus told Israel that they will NOT see him again - ever - UNTIL they learn to say, "Blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord"  

 

In other word, Jesus will NOT return until the Jews, as a nation, accept Him as the Messiah.  The covenant was given to them AS A NATION, and they were blessed and cursed AS A NATION all throughout Scriptures, even to this very day.  So, AS A NATION, they must turn to Him.

 

Even Judaism preaches this.  Even Judaism shows that the Messiah will not reveal Himself to them unless they were all facing total annihilation or they all repented.  Funny how when the armies of the earth surround them to wipe them out, that is when they finally turn to God in desperation.  That is when they finally believe that Jesus is the Messiah.  And guess who comes bursting through the skies at that time...

 

 

There is a great many things to add, but, if the foundation is not understood, it makes little sense for me to add windows, door or plumbing. 

[Spock]

Welcome aboard brother Donibm,

Good stuff to ponder. I really don't have anything to add so I will just chill out here and lurk. However, I can't wait to see brother Argosy's response. Trust me, he will have one. (That brother is intense.)

Shalom,

Spock

[missmuffet]

 

Why God's Purpose for the Tribulation excludes the Church

 

by Thomas Ice

 

 

"And the LORD your God will inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. And you shall again obey the Lord, and observe all His commandments which I command you today."

-Deuteronomy 30:7-8

God's purpose for the tribulation (i.e., the seven-year, 70th week of Daniel) revolves around His plan for Israel and does not include a earthly presence for the church. Why? Because God's plan for Israel is unfinished at this point in history. When the role of the church is completed she will be taken as a completed body to heaven in an instant-at the rapture. This will clear the way for a restoration and resumption of progress toward the completion of our Sovereign Lord's plans for His elect nation-Israel.

 

The Tribulation Focuses on Israel

The Bible teaches that the tribulation is a time of preparation for Israel's restoration and conversion (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:3-11; Zech. 12:10).1 While the church will experience tribulation in general during this present age (John 15:18-25; 16:33; 2 Tim. 3:10-13), she is never mentioned as participating in Israel's time of trouble, which includes the Great Tribulation, the Day of the Lord, and the Wrath of God. Gerald Stanton explains:

The Tribulation does not deal with the Church at all, but with the purification of Israel. It is not the "time of the Church's trouble," but the "time of Jacob's trouble." The emphasis of the Tribulation is primarily Jewish. This fact is borne out by Old Testament Scriptures (Deut. 4: 30; Jer. 30: 7; Ezek. 20: 37; Dan. 12:1; Zech. 13:8-9), by the Olivet Discourse of Christ (Matt. 24:9-26), and by the book of Revelation itself (Rev. 7:4-8; 12:1-2; 17, etc.). It concerns "Daniel's people," the coming of "false Messiah," the preaching of the "gospel of the kingdom," flight on the "sabbath," the temple and the "holy place," the land of Judea, the city of Jerusalem, the twelve "tribes of the children of Israel," the "son of Moses," "signs" in the heavens, the "covenant" with the Beast, the "sanctuary," the "sacrifice and

the oblation" of the temple ritual. These all speak of Israel and clearly demonstrate that the Tribulation is largely a time when God deals with His ancient people prior to their entrance into the promised kingdom. The many Old Testament prophecies yet to be fulfilled for Israel further indicate a future time when God will deal with this nation (Deut. 30:1-6; Jer. 30:8-10, etc.).2

 

The Church is Absent from the Tribulation

Not one Old Testament passage on the tribulation refers to the church (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11; Dan. 8:24-27; 12:1-2), nor does the New Testament ever speak of the church in relation to the tribulation (Matt. 13:30, 39-42, 48-50; 24:15-31; 1 Thess. 1:9-10, 5:4-9; 2 Thess. 2:1-11; Rev. 4-18), except as present in heaven. Such silence speaks loudly and supports the pre-trib position, especially when combined with clear, explicit statements that promise her exemption from that time (Rom. 5:9; 1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9; Rev. 3:10). Note the clear promise to the church of Revelation 3:10:

Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth.

If pretribulationism is indeed the teaching of Scripture, then we would expect that passages dealing with the tribulation would consistently make

no

mention of the church. This is exactly what we find. However, Israel is mentioned often throughout these texts. Dr. Robert Gromacki has studied the New Testament book of Revelation, chapters 4-19, which gives the most detailed overview of the seven-year tribulation in all the Bible. He has shown the following:

However, there is a strange silence of the term in chapters 4-19. That fact is especially noteworthy when you contrast that absence with its frequent presence in the first three chapters. One good reason for this phenomenon is the absence of the true church and true evangelical churches in the seven years preceding the Second Coming. The true believers of the church have gone into the presence of Christ in heaven before the onset of the events of the se

ven year period. The church is not mentioned during the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments because the church is not here during the outpouring of these judgments.3

 

Tribulation on a Christ-Rejecting World

Another purpose for the tribulation is that it is a time of God's wrath upon a Christ-rejecting world and a time of revenge for Gentile treatment of Israel.

Moreover, it is evident that the Tribulation also concerns God's judgment upon Christ-rejecting Gentile nations. Babylon, which "made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication" (Rev. 14:8), shall herself "be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her" (Rev. 18:8). The "cities of the nations" shall fall, after which Satan shall be bound "that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled" (Rev. 20:3). God's judgment falls likewise upon the individual wicked, the kings of the earth, the great, the rich, and the mighty, every bond man and every free man (Rev. 6:15-17). It falls upon all who blaspheme the name of God and repent not to give Him glory (Rev. 16:9). Wicked men, godless nations, suffering Israel--these may all be found in Revelation 6-18; but one looks in vain for the Church of Christ, which is His body, until he reaches the nineteenth chapter. There she is seen as the heavenly bride of Christ, and when He returns to earth to make His enemies His footstool, she is seen returning with Him (I Thess. 3: 13).4

Such a time of judgment does not require the church, who has not rejected Christ, to be present. With the church in heaven during the tribulation, it enables God's focus to be on Israel as His Divine instrument through which He acts. This program was predicted by the Lord before Joshua and Israel ever entered the Promised Land. Notice the predicted pattern:

1) then the LORD your God will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and will gather you again from all the peoples where the LORD your God has scattered you. (Deut. 30:3)

2) And the LORD your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall posses

s it . . . (Deut. 30:5a)

3) And the LORD your God will inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. And you shall again obey the LORD, and observe all His commandments which I command you today. (Deut. 30:7-8)

Zechariah speaks of the Lord's retribution upon the nations as a time when "the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem . . . in that day that I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem." (Zech. 12:8-9) Once again the focus is upon Israel, in this case Jerusalem, not the church.

The book of Revelation provides a graphic depiction of God's judgment upon an unbelieving world, often called "earth dwellers." As God prosecutes His judgment upon the "earth dwellers," John records periodic pauses by our Lord as He evaluates the response of mankind to His judgment before going onto the next phase. It is as if the Lord inflicts a series of judgments and then surveys the landscape to see if, like Ninevah in the days of Jonah, there is repentance so that He can suspend prosecution of the war. Un like Ninevah in the days of Jonah, the "earth dwellers" do not relent in the wake of "the wrath of the Lamb" (Rev. 6:16), so our Lord proceeds to the next phase of His battle. Every step of the way, the "earth dwellers" would "not repent of the works of their hands" (Rev. 9:20) Instead of worshipping Christ, "the earth and those who dwell in it . . . worship the first beast" (Rev. 13:12). Instead of repentance they "blasphemed God" (Rev. 16:21). Finally, "all the nations were deceived" (Rev. 18:23) resulting in the satanic notion that the armies of the world must march against Jerusalem-God's city-and Israel-His people. This results in the basis for the second coming of Christ, which is to resue Israel from the world's armies who are striking out at God by invading His people. Such a scenario does not demand or require the church and so she will not be there. We can see that the purpose of the tribulation revovles around God's plan for Israel, not the church.

 

Conclusion

Only pretribulationism is able to give full import to tribulation terms like "the time of Jacob's trouble" (Jer. 30:7), as a passage specifically stating that the tribulation is for Jacob (i.e., Israel). John Walvoord concludes,

Never are tribulation saints given the special and perculiar promises given to the church in the present age. The nature of the church in contrast to Israel therefore becomes an argument supporting the pretribulation viewpoint.5

Since God's purpose for the tribulation is to restore Israel (Jer. 30:3, 10) and judge the Gentiles (Jer. 30:11), it is clear that this purpose does not include the church. This is one of the reasons why she will be taken to heaven before this time. The church's hope is a heavenly one, not participation in the culmination and restoration of God's plan for His earthly people-Israel. Maranatha! W

 

Endnotes

1 These arguments are adopted from John F. Walvoord,

The Rapture Question

, (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1976), pp. 270-71.

2 Gerald B. Stanton,

Kept From The Hour: Biblical Evidence for the Pretribulational Return of Christ

, 4th edition

(Miami Springs, FL: Schoettle Publishing Company, 1991), pp. 35-36.

3 Robert Gromacki, "Where is 'The Church' in Revelation 4-19?" in Thomas Ice and Timothy Demy, editors

When The Trumpet Sounds

(Eugene, OR: Harvest House Publishers, 1995), p. 355.

4 Stanton, Ibid., p. 36.

5 Walvoord, Ibid., p. 65.

[ARGOSY]

Sigh.

 

Once again, there is not such thing as a "pre-tribber"

 

All CHRISTIANS.

 

Now, the problem is not our belief, it is your understanding.

 

PROBLEM ONE

Just because you see the word "tribulation" doesn't mean that the passage is talking about THEE Tribulation.  

 

Just because someone is anointed, doesn't make them THEE Anointed One (Messiah).

 

Just because someone is antichrist, does not make them THEE antichrist.

 

All saints who truly serve God suffer tribulation, or if you want a different word, persecution.  Have you never studied Church history?  You should.  Don't you know that the first tribulation was terrible?  And that the Catholic Inquisitions are (all Rome) has been greatly downplayed?  Have you never read the Jesuit Oath of Induction? Have you not known about the persecution even by the Judaizers?

 

The Scriptures are clearly talking about giving the WICKED Tribulation for all of their persecution of the saints.  Have you not read in Revelation concerning the prayers of the saints going up before God, which are the PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS? Have you not noticed what FOLLOWS?  Pure Judgment and retribution!  An angry God indeed ... right after the prayers of the saints go before His nostrils.  Rev 8.

 

 

PROBLEM TWO

You have not established WHO the Book was written to and WHY it was written.  You have not established why 2 Thess was even written to begin with.  You wouldn't need to create this thread just by knowing why the Books were written, what was going on in that time, and what it was in response to.

 

 

PROBLEM THREE

Thess 2 is clear.  Paul was assuring them that they had NOT missed the rapture (as some were preaching) because there wasn't even a great falling away from.  And that part is the most important thing of all end time prophecies.  With ALL the prophecies that I know, there is only one that suggest that it will never, ever happen until this one particular thing occurs ... and this is the Scripture that does that.

 

That day will NOT come UNTIL there is a Great Falling Away (from Truth and Biblical doctrine).  Where are all these silly winds of doctrine and crazy beliefs coming from?  Always on some internet page too.  Always.  Some of the craziest things I've seen come from religious forums ... to the point that I am convinced that many are unchurched, unlearned, untaught, but use the Internet to 'vent' and give their opinions of the Word.

 

It has nothing to do with the actual Tribulation Period.  All Paul was doing was settling the fears of his audience because there were others who were preaching that they all MISSED THE RAPTURE.  Paul was telling them that it hadn't taken place yet, and that it would not take place until the Spirit was removed.  That the second coming certainly would not happen until after the antichrist has had his reign.

 

Did you not understand the question of the 12 disciples?  They did not ask Jesus ONE question, they asked Him TWO:

 

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the SIGN OF THY COMING, {{{AND}}} OF THE END OF THE WORLD?

 

Jesus proceeded to answer the first question from 4 - 14 and He ended with, "and then shall the end come"

 

But wait!  Do you see Him continuing to speak after that?  First He outlines a handful of end time prophecies that predate the Rapture, and He clearly says that end will come (it is the end for us saints).  But now He is answering their second question as He is specifically talking about the Jews who will experience the Tribulation in verses.  In short, He isn't outlining Tribulation as it effects the world, as clearly seen in Revelation, but instead He is speaking specifically to the JEWS.  Jacobs Trouble.

 

 

PROBLEM FOUR

Another of your problems is that you don't seem to know that Jacobs Trouble is part of all this.  Jeremiah 30:7 There are elements that apply only to the Jews.  People who don't really know the Scriptures get all sort of things intertwined and contorted.

 

Rapture vs Second Coming vs Jacobs Trouble ... Uncountable Number vs Number Under the Alter vs 144,000

 

The Church vs Israel

 

For years I've seen people dot their T's and cross their I's.  They just keep getting them mixed up.

 

 

Jesus told Israel that they will NOT see him again - ever - UNTIL they learn to say, "Blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord"  

 

In other word, Jesus will NOT return until the Jews, as a nation, accept Him as the Messiah.  The covenant was given to them AS A NATION, and they were blessed and cursed AS A NATION all throughout Scriptures, even to this very day.  So, AS A NATION, they must turn to Him.

 

Even Judaism preaches this.  Even Judaism shows that the Messiah will not reveal Himself to them unless they were all facing total annihilation or they all repented.  Funny how when the armies of the earth surround them to wipe them out, that is when they finally turn to God in desperation.  That is when they finally believe that Jesus is the Messiah.  And guess who comes bursting through the skies at that time...

 

 

There is a great many things to add, but, if the foundation is not understood, it makes little sense for me to add windows, door or plumbing.

Thanks for your reply. The term "pre-tribbers" is just an easier way to write "those beloved Christians who have a belief in a rapture before the tribulation". To write out the whole phrase each time I am referring to those with a pre-trib doctrine is a bit cumbersome and so I hope you have understanding as I continue to use that term.

1) As for your Problem One, yes I agree these are not in the great tribulation, this helps my case. Paul was expecting Jesus and the rapture to come soon, and according to this expectation he encouraged the persecuted Thessalonians that at the second coming they would get their relief. Paul obviously did not believe in a pre-trib rapture, because he said these believers would get their relief at the second coming: 2 Thess 1:6-7

For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well WHEN the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire

This means that when we are persecuted we can look forward to the second coming for our relief. Its strange that Paul never mentioned the rapture as our day of relief. This kinda contradicts the rapture view.

 

 

2) Regarding Problem Two, I was hoping pre-tribbers would give their explanation for those verses, and if knowing the audience and motivation of the letter would somehow help your case I would like to hear your views. The letter was written to the believers in Thessalonica, as encouragement during persecution (Ch 1); correcting end-times doctrine (Ch 2);  Further encouragement and also exhortation to live productive lives (Ch 3). These believers were originally Jews, and God-fearing Greeks, and pagans.

 

3) It really does seem strange to me that you focus on the "falling away" and not the "revealing". 2 Thess 2:1-3

with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,  that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.  Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed

 

Could you kindly explain why you think the apostasy is a precursor to our gathering, but you don't think the revealing is a precursor to our gathering. The sentence seems to point to both as a precursor.

 

 

4) I definitely believe Israel has a role to play during the great tribulation. I believe it will be a time of protection for Israel  (Rev 12, Ezekiel 39). a time of salvation for many Jews  (144 000 sealed, also Romans 11:25). I believe there will be a great repentance for Israel when the northern army attacks (Joel 2. Ezekiel 39). As you say, Jesus will not come again until  "they learn to say, "Blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord"  ". The attack of the northern army will lead to this repentance, and then Jesus will come.  But I will need some scriptural evidence from you that the Gentile church is not around then.