Can violence be justified?

[Taker]

 

So, I have meditated on some of the scripture that has been mentioned in this discussion. I now fully believe that no sin committed by another human being can justify the use of violence against them. "Do not judge others, so that you will not be judged" (Matthew 7:1) is very clearly written in the New Testament. So, how in the world could punching a guy in the face (or shooting him with a gun) possibly not be considered judging him?

 

By committing an act of violence, you are telling another human being "you are wrong, I am right." Can Christians claim that when you sin you become so much less of a person that all evil can be justified if used to stop you? "Never pay back evil with more evil. Do things in such a way that everyone can see you are honorable." (Romans 12:17).

 

To live in a way where you ask yourself, "what would I do if someone attacked my family?" makes it sound like you lack faith in the God of the universe who's love is infinite. There isn't a single thing that has ever happened in the world that God couldn't have stopped. Suffering is destined to come to those who sin, but Christians aren't called to take matters into their own hands. Remember what happened in Genesis chapter 19, the lord had plans to wipe out Sodom and Gomorrah. However, there was a righteous man living in Sodom and his name was Lot. Lot had been living in Sodom despite just how corrupt the citizens who surrounded him were. God sent 2 angles to Sodom. These angles were there to personally protect, warn and help Lot (as well as his family) escape Sodom. During the story, men from Sodom surround Lot's house while the angels are inside the house with Lot. These men get very angry and there are even threats of rape! Let us remember, that even though the house is surrounded by corrupt men who deserve destruction, neither God nor the angels told Lot to attack any of the men. Instead, the angels blinded all of the men. God can protect you no matter what, to say "I need a gun, or else God will allow my family members to get attacked right in front of me in such a way that I would wish that I had a gun." Sounds like a message that comes directly from the devil himself. Please take another look at the scripture in my original post. He who uses the sword will die by the sword. Not, he who lives by the sword will die by the sword.

 

Now, I must address all of the violence that was committed in the Old Testament by Christians for the sake of God. If a Christian killed a non-Christian in the bible (and the act wasn't condemned by God) then that means that God deliberately told that Christian to kill a specific person or group of people. Joshua was told by God to lead a violent military campaign against the Canaanites. This was God's will for Joshua, and God made it clear to Joshua that this was his will. God told Joshua that it was his duty to lead the Israelites in battle against the Canaanites. I want to make this point clear, unless God tells you to, you do not have his permission to kill or hurt anyone.

 

"But I must carry a Gun on me at all times. I cannot afford to drop my guard. If my Gun is at home and I am enjoying myself on vacation at the beach, then I have sinned by not being prepared to protect my family at this moment. Lord, please forgive me for not having an appropriate weapon on me at all times that I intend to use against my enemies." I do not endorse this way of thinking.

 

If you tell me, "I need to be armed at all times!" then I will ask you "Why? Do you find the armor of God to be in-adequate?"

 

To summarize all of my above points:

 

1. To commit violence against an enemy is to judge them, Matthew 7:1 tells us not to judge others.

 

2. Sin doesn't justify sin. Evil doesn't justify evil. "Darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate, only love can do that." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

 

3. God will protect the righteous. (Genesis chapter 19, or look to Acts 7:54-60)

 

4. God never gave man the ability to decide when it was right to kill or not kill another human. Unless you get direct orders from God, you should not kill or harm another human being.

 

5. The armor of God is sufficient!

 

The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these. - (Mark 12:31).

 

 

If all that is true then why do bad things happen to good people....

 

Hmmm... I mean no offense, but your response sounds like that of an atheist. I have faith that the armor of God can and will protect me. Nothing that happens is outside of God's control. Bad things happen to God's children because God has deemed them worthy to suffer, Acts 5:41 "the apostles left the high council rejoicing that God had counted them worthy to suffer disgrace for the name of Jesus."

 

It seems that most arguments on this topic are related to "self-defense". Where in the Bible did you guys get this idea?

[nebula]

Taker, why are you ignoring these question?

 

 

If you came across someone raping a young girl in a park, how would you react?

 

If you arrived at your parents house to find an assailant assaulting your mother, what would your response be?

 

Do you believe that God ever uses human hands to do His will? Specifically, that God ever uses humans to protect other humans?

[OneLight]

Hmmm... I mean no offense, but your response sounds like that of an atheist.

This statement is very offensive to a believer, no matter what you say. Please remember the following from the Terms of Service and align your words accordingly:

 

Abuse of other posters is not allowed. This includes, but is not limited to, name calling, insulting, harassing, threatening or in any way invading the privacy of another poster. ... (Eph. 4: 29)

Debate the subject, not the person. It is possible to disagree about a doctrine or subject under discussion without insulting the person with whom you are debating. Also remember that the fact that a person disagrees with you does not mean they are attacking you as a person. Respect each other in the love of God! This is the main reason that threads get stopped, shut down, and even deleted! Users that cannot respect others will be banned. (Lev. 19:18)

[OneLight]

It seems that most arguments on this topic are related to "self-defense". Where in the Bible did you guys get this idea?

Are you aware of the teaching from Jesus that states "‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’"  Ask yourself, if you were being beaten to death, would you want someone to help you?  If you were being assaulted in a gross manner, would you want someone to help you?  If you were restrained and your child was being abused, would you want someone to help you and your child?  There are so many examples that could be provided, but I think these are sufficient.

[Willa]

Wow! You guys have changed my mind about violence whole-heatedly. I've always WANTED to believe that violence could be justified if it was for the purpose of protecting peace. Now I have reasons that can be traced back to scripture.

 

Patriot, thank you for sharing John 2:15. I think it might be my new all time favorite verse.

 

Also, because the lord has blessed me with an interest in weapons, warfare, and history, I now realize that it's okay to enjoy thinking and philosophizing about these things (which I do all the time). Thank you all very much for your insight.

 

To anyone else who isn't convinced that violence can be justified from a biblical perspective, start reading the book of Joshua. I just started reading it and it is quickly becoming one of my favorite books of all time!

Our sons also have an interest in weapons, WW11 planes, etc.. But the Bible tells us we should think on the things that are noble, just, pure, lovely, of good report, and are virtuous and praiseworthy. We should meditate on these things. Phil. 4:8. So I have to warn you that your preoccupation with war can get warpped. Joshua is a great book when you keep your focus on their relationship with and obedience to God, and the evil consequenses of their not wholly following God's instructions.

Ephesians 6:10-20, v.12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Becoming a Christians warrior means spending much time in prayer. It means recognizing who the enemy is behind the aggressors in most wars--satan himself. Recognize his weapons of deception, mistrust, and destruction of families and godly relationships. See how he uses these same weapons in political leaders to manipulate and deceive nations. Become aware, but focus on Christ, the commander and chief of the Lord's armies.

Blessings,

Willa

[Taker]

Taker, why are you ignoring these question?

 

 

If you came across someone raping a young girl in a park, how would you react?

 

If you arrived at your parents house to find an assailant assaulting your mother, what would your response be?

 

Do you believe that God ever uses human hands to do His will? Specifically, that God ever uses humans to protect other humans?

 

The whole point of this topic is to find out if violence can be justified from a Biblical perspective.

 

"Interfering in someone else's argument is as foolish as yanking a dog's ears." Proverbs 26:17.

 

"Do not say, “I will repay evil”; wait for the Lord, and he will deliver you." Proverbs 20:22

 

"But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." Matthew 5:39

 

I have no idea what I would actually do if I saw those things take place, but it seems like using violence against the attacker is not what the bible would want me to do. Perhaps there is an alternative to violence that would work. Or, perhaps we are to ignore what's happening.

 

Is there anything in the Bible that tells us that we should protect people with violence?

 

In the New Testament we find nothing but examples of disciples and apostles peacefully accepting persecution.

 

To address OneLight, Love your neighbor as your self means to love the attacker as well as the victim. Your argument opened my eyes in the most wonderful way, If someone were attacking me I wouldn't want anyone to stop them! The lord allowed them to attack me, and I should be thankful that he has counted me worthy to suffer. If they kill me, then I will be re-united with my father in heaven.

Edited April 3, 2014 by Taker

[The_Patriot21]

So taker if you came upon someone raping a young woman you would just walk on by?

[missmuffet]

The problem is that too many people will stand by and not help.Do not want to get involved or hurt or killed.

[The_Patriot21]

what Im trying to get at bo, is that all of these people who are anti-violence of any sort and throw out verses like love your neighbor-never think about the victim, and like taker here, will dodge any questions that pertain to the victim. Yes, that criminal is your neighbor-and God calls us to love him or her-but so is the victim. Is it more loving to allow the criminal to continue in violence against the victim, or to stop the criminal using whatever means necessary? which is more loving?

[John Robinson]

A few years back my wife and I were at a church picnic, and a new member and his wife were there. A group of us were talking about this and that, and somehow the subject came up of what a man should do if another man attacked his wife. All of us said we would deal with the attacker in a way that would leave him unable to continue the attack ... all but this new guy.

 

He said, entirely straight-faced, "If that was me and my wife, I'd let the man attack her. It's God's will."

 

One of our group, a grizzled old retired Marine, said to him, astonished, "You mean you'd really stand there and the man attack, rape, and possibly kill your wife, and you'd do NOTHING?"

 

The new guy repeated, "Yep. It's God's will."

 

I stole a glance at his wife. Her face had gone pale, and tears filled her eyes. Then choking back a sob, she ran.

 

The Marine just shook his head at the new guy, and said, "Son, I think you and your wife are probably going to want some time alone to discuss this." The guy nodded and started off after her.

 

The old Marine then turned to me and said, "John, sometimes when a fella says he's a pacifist, it's really just a prettied-up way of saying he's yellow."