A different end times scenario to discuss

[rollinTHUNDER]

This is partly why I don't want to debate you. You seem to assume that your reading and interpretation of the bible is as infallible as the Word itself.  You chop up my post and twist it to mean something else that you can throw an argument or accusation ("logical fallacy!!") at. You don't read what I say to find my intended meaning, you read it to find something you can argue with. You see me as an opponent because I disagreed with you in other topics, so therefore we must be at odds about everything?  If you had read my first post, Enoch, you would have realized that I was considering your side of this argument. I am trying to have an open mind about this.  You really want to debate a post-tribber, go find a post-tribber.

 

Hindsight may be 20/20, but foresight is blind. Prophecy is given by someone with Vision, but often interpreted by the those who can't see (fallible humans).  I study prophecy in Scripture to know the signs, and I lean on the Holy Spirit to lead me.  I don't need to know every detail. I don't need to make a timeline of what will happen, because I'll probably be wrong. It's also not what's important.   When Jesus comes back, He won't commend me on my theories and speculations, but on my readiness.

 

"If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." - 1 Corinthians 13:2

Bulls-eye!

[rollinTHUNDER]

Nobody is undermining the word of God here, people are disagreeing with your interpretation of the Word of God.

Bingo!

Cheers

[ARGOSY]

 

I'm not upset with them Spock, my whole family is in that camp also. I just see the possible hurt and disappointment ahead for them and am trying to warn them, and plead with them not to try and recruit others into their camp without knowing for sure that they are correct in their doctrine.

 

 

You're trying to warn them based on......??    Is it your "Resurrections" diatribe?

 

How do you know you're correct in "you're" doctrine..... to then warn others?  Resurrections?

 

 

Enoch, I don't regard it as appropriate that you refer to another's argument about the resurrection as a diatribe.  Are you aware what it means?  It means " a forceful and bitter verbal attack against someone or something."

[ENOCH2010]

Enoch 2021 you can't be serious in saying that Luke 21:9-12 and Matt 24:6-9 aren't describing the same events.

 

Lord help you I'm done, it's a waste of time. The old saying comes to mind, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

[Spock]

Well, live long and prosper. How was it like to take refuge in McCoy's body?

Not pleasant at all. Thanks for asking.

Let's look at a little of your lengthy presentation. You have apparently done a lot of thought and come up with some ideas. We Christians have things figured out differently from each other on eschatology; so I don't think heresy is in question.

Let's start at the first of it:

Spock spoke: "1. First Fruits Rapture/harvest of the FAITHFUL CHURCH ONLY (think promise to the Church of Philadelphia) -because these believers are watchful, alert, and living for God, not for self or the world, they will be kept from the hour of testing. These are the people who take Luke 21:36 seriously: "Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man." (I believe ALL these things means all - the entire 70th week, which includes the frightful Seals too.)"

A) Do you have proof that the Bible calls the Rapture "harvest"? I can't think of such a passage. I think of eschatological harvest as severe judgment; like cutting with a sharp sickle.

No I don't. I thought that was pretty profound (and cool) of me to connect the two. Obviously you don't. Maybe I should call this the "Thief in the Night" rapture instead. That may be more meaningful to some.

More support and musings on why I believe in a firstfruits harvest/rapture: I now see this "separation/departure" of faithful believers as also being necessary to allow the man of lawlessness to enter the scene. I believe it is the faithful church who is RESTRAINING the evil one from taking center stage. And when the faithful church is removed you will shortly see the AC coming to power. Again, let me be clear, the faithful church is NOT the entire church. It is a small %, 25% at best in my estimation. I say this based on the parable of the sower of the seed. Only 1/4 of the people groups Jesus referenced bore fruit. The faithful church is the SALT of the world, and what does salt do? Stops putrification. When the salt is removed, it gets stinky around here.

B) The Church of Philadelphia is told "Because you kept the word of my patience, " -- I don't find "because watchful, alert, and living for God, not for self or the world." How can you add all that in?

This one is much easier. I actually used the totality of scripture to answer this one. For example, see the parable of the 10 virgins in Matthew 25. Also, Luke 12:34 has a very good long passage where our Lord is constantly encouraging the brothers to watch and be ready. And of course in John Jesus says, "You love me if you obey my word...."

C) The Church of Philadelphia would be primarily all the Christians in the city of Philadelphia plus possible some in the surrounding area. Now how would it be possible that every member of a city church would be "watchful, alert, and living for God, not for self or the world"? Has there ever been such a city where in it no Christians were carnal? If there were a partial rapture, how could that include a whole city of Christians?

I'm not sure what point you are making here. Are you saying our Lord was not making sense when he spoke this commendation to the Church of Philadelphia? Are you saying his words to this Church makes no sense because you can't speak to an entire Church body? You are going to have to ask our Lord what he meant when he spoke these words to seven different body of believers. I'm comfortable in drawing inferences as to what they mean.

By the way, there were members from the Church of Sardis and Smyrna that our Lord was very pleased with also. I'm sure these faithful people from these churches will meet the requirments necessary to qualify for this secret harvest. In other words, while Jesus spoke this promise to the Church of Philadelphia, I believe it is ANYONE from any CHURCH who fits the criteria/requirements will be considered worthy.

D) Where does this passage say that anyone is left out of the exclusion from the Hour of Testing?

I think the answer to this is simply this - Jesus was critiquing 7 different churches, giving both concerns and praises. The only church that was told they would be kept from the "hour of testing" was the church of Philadelphia. Therefore, I think it is logical to assume they earned this privilege, and so does anyone else who is like them. I think all of us today fit into one of these 7 churches, so we should all take inventory of our lives. The fact that Jesus did not speak these words to the other 6 churches to me is very revealing. I would be concerned if I felt I was more like a member of the church of Laodicea than the church of Philadelphia.

E) Is not salvation by grace? Is not the Rapture an integral part of salvation? Do you postulate salvation by works here?

This has nothing to do with SALVATION. This is all about rewards if you will. Salvation is by grace through faith period. However, what good is faith without works? (Book of James says it is a dead faith.)

F) Luke 21 is the Olivet Discourse. Where do you find any church in that Discourse. Do you see anyone being caught up to a meeting with the Lord in the air in the Olivet Discourse?

No it isn't the same. I believe brother Enoch answered this for me. Two separate events.

G) Where does scripture speak of any Christian not going up at the Rapture? When it says in 1 Thessalonians 4 "we shall be caught up" (= raptured), who is the "we"? The text says,

"we who are alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. "

The we who is rapture is clearly defined:

"WE who are alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord,

"WE who are alive, who are left, shall TOGETHER with them"

"so WE shall ever be with the Lord."

This WE = those who are left (it must include carnal Christians, since they certainly are left, along with spiritual Christians).

How do you explain the TOGETHER. How can we all be together if there is a partial rapture?

Where did I say not all Christians would be raptured? Answer - never did. I said the FAITHFUL Philadelphia type believers get a free pass from tribulation and Satan's Wrath if you will, but I then said the main rapture for the rest of the church , the far majority, is pursuant to the Matt 24:29-31 passage. Thus, all of the Church gets lifted out of here, at different phases.

What I said that maybe you misconstrued was not all of the Church will attend the Wedding Supper. This is only for the FAITHFUL Church. I don't think lazy, half-hearted, not even caring about some second coming, luke warm believers who Jesus says "I will spit you out of my mouth" will be invited in. In fact, the parable of the 10 virgins and many other passages seem to back me up on that. Read Luke 12:34 carefully.

I repeat: Not all Christians will be treated equally. This is not socialism. We are not all one class. I also believe it is a BIG LIE to assume ALL Christians will be lifted out of here before Daniel's 70th week commences. If this is true, then I'm seriously misapplying Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 7: 9-16 and Revelation 3:10 and many other passages that do not support a pre trib rapture for the ENTIRE church. I may be wrong, but I don't think so. I do not buy the rebuttal to Matthew 24 that this is a Jewish passage only, so please don't lay that one on me again. I've read it 1000 times and I still haven't bought it.

Final thought: Thank you for challenging my "secret rapture" position. Like I said in my original post, I'm not sure about this myself. I know the main rapture is shortly after the abomination of desolation, but I added this because it appeared to me looking at all of scripture, the faithful members of the Body of Christ will be honored and called out in this special way and their calling forth will be the event that gets the ball rolling regarding the end times playing out. I may not be right, and clearly my thoughts are in the minority here, but I just wanted to throw them out to see what others think.

Thanks for helping me think through this deeper. Iron sharpening iron. Oh, btw, I liked your humor in your opening to me. Very nice.

Live long and prosper my brother,

Spock out

[Enoch2021]

 

 

I'm not upset with them Spock, my whole family is in that camp also. I just see the possible hurt and disappointment ahead for them and am trying to warn them, and plead with them not to try and recruit others into their camp without knowing for sure that they are correct in their doctrine.

 

 

You're trying to warn them based on......??    Is it your "Resurrections" diatribe?

 

How do you know you're correct in "you're" doctrine..... to then warn others?  Resurrections?

 

 

Enoch, I don't regard it as appropriate that you refer to another's argument about the resurrection as a diatribe.  Are you aware what it means?  It means " a forceful and bitter verbal attack against someone or something."

 

 

 

It wasn't about "The Resurrection" it was concerning his entire position of "resurrections".  That being said, I could have used a better term in my characterization.

 

my mistake

[Enoch2021]

Enoch 2021 you can't be serious in saying that Luke 21:9-12 and Matt 24:6-9 aren't describing the same events.

 

Lord help you I'm done, it's a waste of time. The old saying comes to mind, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

 

 

This speaks volumes

[OneLight]

It bothers me that people cannot debate the issue without insulting/attacking the person.  Leave the person out of the discussion/debate or those who cannot will be removed from the thread.  Howthis discussion/debate has evolved has caused other enough concern to report posts, indicating that others see what I see.
 
Here is a reminder of that the Terms of Service states:
 

Abuse of other posters is not allowed. This includes, but is not limited to, name calling, insulting, harassing, threatening or in any way invading the privacy of another poster. ... (Eph. 4: 29)

Debate the subject, not the person. It is possible to disagree about a doctrine or subject under discussion without insulting the person with whom you are debating. Also remember that the fact that a person disagrees with you does not mean they are attacking you as a person. Respect each other in the love of God! This is the main reason that threads get stopped, shut down, and even deleted! Users that cannot respect others will be banned. (Lev. 19:18)

 
I would also include the follow advice from scripture:
 
Colossians 4:6
 

Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one.

Matthew 12:36
 

But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.

[Spock]

Spock's plea:

Please don't be ungracious in your response here that could result in this thread getting closed. It took me a while to formulate my thoughts and I really want to hear everyone's thoughts and beliefs even if opposed to mine.

Thanks for caring.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

=====================================================================================

 

Spock spoke: "1. First Fruits Rapture/harvest of the FAITHFUL CHURCH ONLY (think promise to the Church of Philadelphia) -because these believers are watchful, alert, and living for God, not for self or the world, they will be kept from the hour of testing. These are the people who take Luke 21:36 seriously: "Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man." (I believe ALL these things means all - the entire 70th week, which includes the frightful Seals too.)"

 

  Yes this is The Raptured Church......"Caught Up" before the 70th Week.  But it's not a Harvest and it's not "First Fruits"<---------- This is a Jewish Genre, has nothing to do with the Church

 

Do you have proof that the Bible calls the Rapture "harvest"? I can't think of such a passage. I think of eschatological harvest as severe judgment; like cutting with a sharp sickle.

 

Spock-----No I don't. I thought that was pretty profound (and cool) of me to connect the two.

 

This is what you're referring to......

 

(Revelation 14:18-20) "And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.  {19} And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.  {20} And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

 

You only have the "vine' and "grapes". Both are thrown into the "great winepress of the wrath of GOD".

 

You thought it was kool to connect "The Rapture" and this?

 

 

I now see this "separation/departure" of faithful believers as also being necessary to allow the man of lawlessness to enter the scene. I believe it is the faithful church who is RESTRAINING the evil one from taking center stage. And when the faithful church is removed you will shortly see the AC coming to power.

 

Alright Spock!!!!!  I've been worried, nearly fell off the chair when I read this

 

And then when I was Beaming, you say this.....

 

Again, let me be clear, the faithful church is NOT the entire church. It is a small %, 25% at best in my estimation. I say this based on the parable of the sower of the seed.

 

You even have a Percentage...... Based on a Parable that has absolutely NO CONNECTION with The Rapture Whatsoever.   In other words, you're basing someones ability of being Raptured..... on WORKS!!!!  Spock Spock.......This is very dangerous territory.

 

Please.....Stop basing your theories on Parables

 

In other words, while Jesus spoke this promise to the Church of Philadelphia, I believe it is ANYONE from any CHURCH who fits the criteria/requirements will be considered worthy.

 

Yes, The Overcomers.

 

Also bear in mind these Churches listed in the Order that they are in is not only speaking to The Actual Churches but Church History.  Another telling item is the Promises are Post Scripted to the first 3 Churches while the Promises to the Last 4 are in the Body of the Letter.  Which Implies.....the last 4 Churches will be on the Earth during the End Times.

 

1. Ephesus--------------->   The Apostolic Church

2. Smyrna------------------>  The Persecuted Church

3. Pergamos --------------> The Married Church

4. Thyatira -----------------> The Medieval Church 

5. Sardis--------------------> The Denominational Church

6. Philadelphia-------------> Missionary Church

7. Laodicea-----------------> Apostate Church

 

 

I think the answer to this is simply this - Jesus was critiquing 7 different churches, giving both concerns and praises. The only church that was told they would be kept from the "hour of testing" was the church of Philadelphia. Therefore, I think it is logical to assume they earned this privilege, and so does anyone else who is like them. I think all of us today fit into one of these 7 churches, so we should all take inventory of our lives. The fact that Jesus did not speak these words to the other 6 churches to me is very revealing. I would be concerned if I felt I was more like a member of the church of Laodicea than the church of Philadelphia.

 

 

 

This has nothing to do with SALVATION. This is all about rewards if you will.

 

The Rapture is The Church in TOTO.  Rewards are referring to the Bema Seat.

 

Where did I say not all Christians would be raptured? Answer - never did. I said the FAITHFUL Philadelphia type believers get a free pass from tribulation and Satan's Wrath if you will, but I then said the main rapture for the rest of the church , the far majority, is pursuant to the Matt 24:29-31 passage. Thus, all of the Church gets lifted out of here, at different phases.

 

You said it above and Scripture doesn't mention anything Whatsover about "Phases".  How can The Rapture of the Church be:

 

1: In a Parable?

 

2. In a Parable in a Book before The Mystery of "The Church" was not revealed yet?

 

Define Parable?  Purpose?

 

Is a Parable Prophecy?

 

What I said that maybe you misconstrued was not all of the Church will attend the Wedding Supper. This is only for the FAITHFUL Church.

 

Scripture Support?

 

 

I don't think lazy, half-hearted, luke warm believers

 

There are none of these...... it's an Oxymoron.  You're either SAVED or your not, There is no middle ground.

 

 

I also believe it is a BIG LIE to assume ALL Christians will be lifted out of here before Daniel's 70th week commences.

 

You're muddying the Waters here and Equivocating "All Christians" with "The Church".  "The Church" will be lifted prior to the 70th Week of Daniel Based on Scripture.  However, there will be Tribulation Saints, The Sealed 144,000, The Believing Jewish Remnant that are "Christians".

 

Apples and Oranges in this specific case Spock.

 

 

I know the main rapture is shortly after the abomination of desolation

 

No sir.  This violates dozens of Scriptures and the Doctrine of Imminence.  If that were true, even casual Bible Readers of Daniel and Revelation could then pull out their calendars and set their watches for Christ's Second Coming....

 

(Matthew 24:36) " But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."