Matt36 Posted April 25, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 93 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted April 25, 2014 (edited) Enoch, i have been a pre tribber for over 25 years. I have only just now in the last 6 months discovered i was wrong. At first i didnt know what the pre wrath view was just that i started to believe from my bible reading that the rapture could not be pre trib. This is when i decided to fullu investigate the issue and learnt about the pre wrath view. The whole reason i came here to this forum was the have the pre wrath view put to scrutiny. I have been open to the fact that the pre wrath view could be wrong. But you know what, you have actually increased my faith in it because nearly everything you write is either church doctrine or scripture out of context. I am now stronger in th pre wrath view as nobody has been able to disassemble it using scripture. So thanks for all you guys input. Ill leave you a clue to why you are incorrect in post 202. Who is Jesus talking about concerning the tribulation and who is Jesus talking about concerning the great tribulation. I KNEW you would say i didnt have it in chronological order, i was waiting for that. Read the scripture again Enoch. But ive given up on discussing things with you because you are just argueing and not discussing with a view to find what is scriptural correct. Edited April 25, 2014 by Matt36 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted April 25, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted April 25, 2014 Matt, Doctrines like this usually involve an emotional attachment. I would recommend more sharing of your beliefs and why you believe it and less of debating the topic line by line. You are right, most people emotionally involved won't budge from what they believe, which usually means they are not as open to hear what each other has to say, but rather are more concerned about saying what they want you to believe. That way no hard feelings arise and everyone reading can judge both sides for themselves. Cheers mate. Spock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwikphilly Posted April 25, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 96 Topic Count: 307 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 18,136 Content Per Day: 4.63 Reputation: 27,817 Days Won: 327 Joined: 08/03/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted April 25, 2014 Blessings Matt.... I could not agree with Spock more than 100%.....Matt,you are going to find(you probably have)that some people are very difficult to converse with while others are not......not just here on Worthy but everywhere. The only reason I am writing(sorry I am off topic,but just for a moment) because you said that you came to Worthy to put the pre-wrath view to scrutiny and I am hoping to encourage you to stay now that you are here & explore the other forums,fellowship with us........ To tell you the truth,I very rarely post in prophecy and certain forums where I find no one seems to listen & they just want to be heard(over & over & over & over-lol)There are lots of great,loving,kind,spirit filled children of God here on Worthy that add good fruits to the conversation & they love to listen & share,stay & join us.............there are many Blessings to give & receive on this place God has provided for us all Perhaps you may even enjoy the chat room,there is always someone there 24/7......God Bless you & I look forward to seeing you With love-in Christ,Kwik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENOCH2010 Posted April 25, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 907 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 382 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/07/1866 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Matt since you have came this far away from the pre-trib doctrine, just skip over the pre-wrath doctrine and settle in the camp of the post-tribbers, where the truth still resides. Neither the pre-trib doctrine or the pre-wrath doctrine were ever taught before the 1800's when a lady named Margaret M. had a dream about a secret return of the Lord. Darby picked up the dream and ran with it until Scofield printed it in his bible. People see Scofields comments at the bottom of the pages in his bible and think they are included in "thus sayeth the Lord" when in fact they are just an opinion like everybody else has. Then came the left behind series of books and movies, now this doctrine is so ingrained into the minds of some,there is no way to convince them other wise. The post trib return of the Lord was the doctrine taught from the beginning of the church, and it is still being taught today. The Bible says the second coming of the Lord is to happen at the first resurrection, the dead in Christ will rise first then we which are alive and remain will join them in the air. From there we will stay with the Lord while He cleans up Bozrah and then we go to the Mount of Olives to rescue his people. The post -trib view is the only view that was taught in the beginning, and it is the only view that doesn't have to add a secret resurrection and a secret return of the Lord. I think we need to believe what the Bible says, not some lady named Margaret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hindsfeet Posted April 25, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 201 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 49 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/16/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted April 25, 2014 I suppose we dont need to believe the Reformation as well, seeing as that didnt come til later also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted April 25, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 25, 2014 And yet the Post-Trib view is the only view where the rest of mankind continues to worship demons and idols. In Christ Montana Marv Maybe I should quote Scripture: Rev 9:18 - A third of mankind was killed by the three plague of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths. v.20 - The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands, they did not stop worshiping and idols... In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted April 25, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted April 25, 2014 ============================================================================ Thanks for the color commentary....... And 8 Conjured/Baseless Unsupported Assertions. Nowhere in Scripture does it say that Christ exists in @ least 5 Dimensions, Right? Well if you use "Reasoning" (Basic Inductive/Deductive) and a dash of Critical Thinking Skills you can come up with a reasonable conclusion. Ya See, Jesus "In The Flesh" after the Resurrection could enter and leave a 6-Sided Room without anyone noticing. Get it? Sort of the same concept here. We put Two (or more) Independent Streams of thought together into a coherent conclusion. The First Clue is the term "he". The second thought is the Term "Restrainer" or Restraining "evil" or satan. Then we look @ Scripture in TOTO to see what and or who has the power to do this and has done this very act in the past. As it turns out, we have the Book of JOB. This Book quite demonstrably shows satan is only "Restrained" by Almighty GOD!! In other words, satan can only go so far as what GOD will allow...which is "Stamp on the Forehead" clear just from a cursory review of the Book of JOB. This sort of lines up due to the description we find in Ezekiel of satan..... (Ezekiel 28:12-14) "Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. {13} Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. {14} Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire." Full of Wisdom, Perfect in Beauty Anointed cherub that covereth. Sounds pretty powerful to me. So we conclude that GOD, or in this case The Holy Spirit (One and The Same with GOD), is the "Restrainer". Which just so happened to be given to "The Church" just after Christ's Departure to indwell them with a promise that..... (Matthew 16:18) "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Why??...... cause satan can "Never" prevail or work outside The WILL of Almighty GOD!! Savvy? Enoch, ive discoverd you dont actually read what i write, this is obvious by your comments as you miss 90% of everything i say and i feel i just repeat myself over and over. Not casting my pearls no more bro. Take care. ===================================================================================== I'm trying to figure out why you would Post a Reply concerning not reading your posts (Another Unsupported Baseless Assertion) on a conversation between me and ENOCH2010?? Yes, I would say 100% of the time, I don't read other posts (Spock/Argosy/Montana Marv et al) when I'm replying to ENOCH2010.....it wouldn't make any sense and would result in mass confusion. It would be Tantamount to having a Bank Teller ask you for your account# then replying "Make sure it's @ room Temperature then place it on the Grill @ about 400 degrees and only flip it once"....from a conversation between 2 people in line behind you regarding the best technique to Cook a Steak. As for your Back-Handed Implied Insult concerning "Your Pearls", I generally find that when these show up (Which started with your 2nd post) that this is usually the result of holding Deuce Seven Off Suit that's just been called and instead of heading to the Rail quietly and respectfully contemplating how/why you overplayed your hand, you murmur incessantly on how it's another persons fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt36 Posted April 25, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 93 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted April 25, 2014 Matt, Doctrines like this usually involve an emotional attachment. I would recommend more sharing of your beliefs and why you believe it and less of debating the topic line by line. You are right, most people emotionally involved won't budge from what they believe, which usually means they are not as open to hear what each other has to say, but rather are more concerned about saying what they want you to believe. That way no hard feelings arise and everyone reading can judge both sides for themselves. Cheers mate. Spock Thanks spoke ill take ur advice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt36 Posted April 25, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 93 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted April 25, 2014 Blessings Matt.... I could not agree with Spock more than 100%.....Matt,you are going to find(you probably have)that some people are very difficult to converse with while others are not......not just here on Worthy but everywhere. The only reason I am writing(sorry I am off topic,but just for a moment) because you said that you came to Worthy to put the pre-wrath view to scrutiny and I am hoping to encourage you to stay now that you are here & explore the other forums,fellowship with us........ To tell you the truth,I very rarely post in prophecy and certain forums where I find no one seems to listen & they just want to be heard(over & over & over & over-lol)There are lots of great,loving,kind,spirit filled children of God here on Worthy that add good fruits to the conversation & they love to listen & share,stay & join us.............there are many Blessings to give & receive on this place God has provided for us all Perhaps you may even enjoy the chat room,there is always someone there 24/7......God Bless you & I look forward to seeing you With love-in Christ,Kwik Thanks Kwik, i guess ill stick around. Im not angree, not with Enoch either. I just thought the discussion with him wasnt going anywhere. I guess im looking for open discussion with people who are open and prepared to change their views according to scripture and what it says. Over the years ive come to learn that church doctrine is just that and i really dont have much faith in it. Ive been to a few different churches from Strict independant baptist to mainstream baptist to Hillsong AOG. All have their good points but none of them have all their theology down packed in a box. The 7 letters to the 7 churches also shows this. So church doctrine will get knowhere with me. Just the scriptures. In fact ive only watched one video on the pre wrath view and ive not read any info at all on it. Im relying on the bible and Gods spirit to reveal truth and he has been. Again, thanks for your kind word sis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt36 Posted April 25, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 93 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted April 25, 2014 Matt since you have came this far away from the pre-trib doctrine, just skip over the pre-wrath doctrine and settle in the camp of the post-tribbers, where the truth still resides. Neither the pre-trib doctrine or the pre-wrath doctrine were ever taught before the 1800's when a lady named Margaret M. had a dream about a secret return of the Lord. Darby picked up the dream and ran with it until Scofield printed it in his bible. People see Scofields comments at the bottom of the pages in his bible and think they are included in "thus sayeth the Lord" when in fact they are just an opinion like everybody else has. Then came the left behind series of books and movies, now this doctrine is so ingrained into the minds of some,there is no way to convince them other wise. The post trib return of the Lord was the doctrine taught from the beginning of the church, and it is still being taught today. The Bible says the second coming of the Lord is to happen at the first resurrection, the dead in Christ will rise first then we which are alive and remain will join them in the air. From there we will stay with the Lord while He cleans up Bozrah and then we go to the Mount of Olives to rescue his people. The post -trib view is the only view that was taught in the beginning, and it is the only view that doesn't have to add a secret resurrection and a secret return of the Lord. I think we need to believe what the Bible says, not some lady named Margaret. Thanks enoch, im aware of most of that info. Feel free to speak up and tell me more about your rapture view as i am open to all views till i am 100% convinced of what the Lord is showing me. The pre trib view though is going to take alot of persuasion now. I think its the least viable view of all of them. Again thanks Enoch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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