Very Tough Question

[Budman]

This has been really bugging me for awhile; Why wasn't Tyre destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar as prophesied by Ezekiel (Ezekiel 26)? When it was attacked by Alexander the Great, why didn't it remain desolate as prophesied by Ezekiel?

warm regards

-bud

[Budman]

I have some other questions here:

How can it be that Jesus contradicts the Old Testament (1 Samuel 21-22),

saying that Abiathar gave David the showbread instead of Ahimelech, and saying

that David had men with him, when he was actually alone (Mark 2:25-26)?

And:

Why did Jesus lie to his brothers about going to Jerusalem (John 7:8-10)? Did Jesus really tell a lie here?

warm regards

-bud

[Leonard]

If David was alone, why did he say "The young men with me have kept ritual purity?"

What do you mean by 'desolate?' It's still a pretty darned desolate place!

It's my understanding that the main city was indeed quite destroyed by the Babylonians, the Island city later by Alexander.

Remember too that the Hebrew Prophets took great liberties in speech. Great 'poetic license' is quite acceptable in Hebrew....even more so than in English poetry.

"I'm not going up to this Feast yet" and then going later is a lie????

[Botz]

Hi Budman...You wrote...

This has been really bugging me for awhile; Why wasn't Tyre destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar as prophesied by Ezekiel (Ezekiel 26)? When it was attacked by Alexander the Great, why didn't it remain desolate as prophesied by Ezekiel

These sorts of questions are usually the type thrown up by those that run web-sites always trying to show the contradictions in the Bible and prove that what we believe has severe flaws in it...many are ex-believers and even Pastors whose faith has been ship-wrecked as they have succumbed to the weight of so-called evidence that they believe shows that the Word of G-d is imperfect.

There are some things within Scripture that are difficult to understand and others that are not easy at first to correlate. When I first became a Believer in the Messiah I used to spend hours reading the word of G-d and then trying to trip up the Pastor with questions that he couldn't answer. Eventually I realised that the Scriptures are true and the only errors within them are contained within translation and that these are generally so minimal as to be unimportant...but occasionally a nuance of meaning is distorted or some of the original idiom is mis-represented...but certainly no major doctrines or teachings...quite the contrary.

Ezekiel did not lie in his prophesy..if he had done so he would have been a false prophet...it is just that some men wrestle with his words and try to prove that Tyre was not destroyed etc according to Ezekiel 26.

I think what you will find is that Tyre became two cities...the first the mainland port that was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar and then moved and fortified itself to the island of Tyre just off the coast. Over the years many nations came up against the Island of Tyre but were unable to destroy it and it was thought to be impregnable until around 332 BC Alexander came against it...building a causeway from the land through the sea with the debris from the original mainland town of Tyre...he was then able to build siege engines that were 160 feet high and soon breached the cities wall. It was never rebuilt and now remains a man-made peninsula. There are many descriptions within Ezekiel that show how this occured to the fullest extent...and even beyond what we could imagine...such is the power and accuracy of G-ds word.

It is good to look deeply into things and question them and seek G-ds wisdom and understanding...in fact we should do this constantly especially when looking into His word which we have the privilege to be able to do...but we should also handle the Scriptures with great care and a certain amount of veneration...not in a spirit of unbelief or contention.

The Apostle Peter admits some things are not easy to understand but tempers this with a word of caution...

2Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

2Peter 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

2Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

There are many scholarly individuals out there who have made it their aim in life to prove that the Bible is full of falsehood and inaccuracy...they are gifted at arguing and can present such plausible facts one after the other...my friendly advice is don't get caught in the web they weave...Some are Atheists and others are Christians who have been shipwrecked in their faith and they want to make sure many others fall with them.

1Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

1Peter 5:9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

[traveller]

Excellent post, Botz! (you just taught me something!)

[Budman]

If David was alone, why did he say "The young men with me have kept ritual purity?"

Samuel 21:1-2

Then David came to Nob to Ahimelech the priest; and Ahimelech came trembling to meet David and said to him, "Why are you alone and no one with you?"

David said to Ahimelech the priest, "The king has commissioned me with a matter and has said to me, 'Let no one know anything about the matter on which I am sending you and with which I have commissioned you; and I have directed the young men to a certain place.'

That states clearly that David was alone.

Mark 2:25-26

And He (Jesus) said to them, "Have you never read what David did when he was in need and he and his companions became hungry;

How he entered the house of God in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the consecrated bread, which is not lawful for anyone to eat except the priests, and he also gave it to those who were with him?"

This states clearly that David had companions with him.

This also brings up my other point: How can it be that Jesus contradicts the Old Testament saying that Abiathar gave David the showbread instead of Ahimelech?

I think what you will find is that Tyre became two cities...the first the mainland port that was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar and then moved and fortified itself to the island of Tyre just off the coast. Over the years many nations came up against the Island of Tyre but were unable to destroy it and it was thought to be impregnable until around 332 BC Alexander came against it...building a causeway from the land through the sea with the debris from the original mainland town of Tyre...he was then able to build siege engines that were 160 feet high and soon breached the cities wall. It was never rebuilt and now remains a man-made peninsula. There are many descriptions within Ezekiel that show how this occured to the fullest extent...and even beyond what we could imagine...such is the power and accuracy of G-ds word.

Yet Tyre exists, even though the prophesy stated that it will never again be inhabited, and that it will not even be found!

Ezekiel 26:19-21

For thus says the Lord GOD, "When I make you a desolate city, like the cities which are not inhabited, when I bring up the deep over you and the great waters cover you, then I will bring you down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of old, and I will make you dwell in the lower parts of the earth, like the ancient waste places, with those who go down to the pit, so that you will not be inhabited; but I will set glory in the land of the living.

"I will bring terrors on you and you will be no more; though you will be sought, you will never be found again," declares the Lord GOD.

Here's a link to the (still inhabited) city of Tyre:

Tyre

"I'm not going up to this Feast yet" and then going later is a lie????

I was going by the English Standard Version which says: "You go up to the feast. I am not going up to this feast, for my time has not yet fully come." saying this, he remained in Galilee. But after his brothers had gone up to the feast, then he also went up, not publicly but in private.'

In the footnote for John 7:8, it says that some manuscripts add "yet."

There are many scholarly individuals out there who have made it their aim in life to prove that the Bible is full of falsehood and inaccuracy...they are gifted at arguing and can present such plausible facts one after the other...my friendly advice is don't get caught in the web they weave...Some are Atheists and others are Christians who have been shipwrecked in their faith and they want to make sure many others fall with them.

I don't believe that is is wrong to question. How ever else are we really going to learn? I can't just shuffle hard questions aside for fear it may "shipwreak my faith."

The only thing that could shipwreak my faith is if there are no answers to these questions. I know there are, I just haven't found them yet. That's why I'm asking you guys. Most of you are far more learned than me.

warm regards

-bud

[Leonard]

Ahimelec was the priest there, but it was indeed "...in the days of the Abiathar the High Priest....." No contradiction here, that I can see. Where did you find the reference which says Abiathar gave the shewbread to David? All I could find is that the event took place during the High Priesthood of Abiathar.

One's confusion about just exactly where the 'young men' who were 'with' David happened to be at at that very moment can hardly be called a contradiction. It is clear that there were 'unimportant' individuals who were traveling with David, but they were perhaps not 'right there' at the moment. David did deceive Ahimilech. That the lie David told is recorded clearly, is not a contradiction in Scripture; rather it proves the truthfulness and accuracy of the text.

I have a very hard time thinking of any of the things you have pointed out are actually 'contradictions.' If you really want to see one, I can point a clear one out for you. In the list of the kings, it says in the books of Kings one king reigned 20 years, and in the books of Chronicles it says he reigned 40 years. I don't recall which king, but it should not be terribly difficult to find.

These are good questions, by the way! They're just ones I studied out many years ago.......

[Botz]

Budman...

Yet Tyre exists, even though the prophesy stated that it will never again be inhabited, and that it will not even be found!

Modern Tyre is unrelated to the foundations of the old Tyre and lies somewhat down the coast. It could also be reasonable to assume that the prophecy was directed at the Phoenician controlled Tyre...that bustled with corruption and thought itself pretty high and mighty...either way it has gone and nothing has risen from the ashes.

In your passage about Ahimelech and Abiathar..the young men were with David...just not at that precise moment that he got the bread. This is apparent from the text if you read further down...

1Samuel 21:4 And the priest answered David, and said, There is no common bread under mine hand, but there is hallowed bread; if the young men have kept themselves at least from women. 1Samuel 21:5 And David answered the priest, and said unto him, Of a truth women have been kept from us about these three days, since I came out, and the vessels of the young men are holy, and the bread is in a manner common, yea, though it were sanctified this day in the vessel.

And when Jesus says...

Mark 2:25 And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?

Mark 2:26 How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?

He did eat and he did give to his companions...but reading between the lines he gave it to them when he came to them having first obtained if from the High Priest...and this passage doen't mean they were with him in the presence of the High Priest...just that they were with him.

[Budman]

Modern Tyre is unrelated to the foundations of the old Tyre and lies somewhat down the coast. It could also be reasonable to assume that the prophecy was directed at the Phoenician controlled Tyre...that bustled with corruption and thought itself pretty high and mighty...either way it has gone and nothing has risen from the ashes.

My point being, old tyre has been found, when the prophesy said it would never be.

Thank-you for the other answers though.

warm regards

-bud

[Botz]

Hiya Budman.

You wrote...

My point being, old tyre has been found, when the prophesy said it would never be.

Ezekiel 26:19-21

For thus says the Lord GOD, "When I make you a desolate city, like the cities which are not inhabited, when I bring up the deep over you and the great waters cover you, then I will bring you down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of old, and I will make you dwell in the lower parts of the earth, like the ancient waste places, with those who go down to the pit, so that you will not be inhabited; but I will set glory in the land of the living.

"I will bring terrors on you and you will be no more; though you will be sought, you will never be found again," declares the Lord GOD.

Bud where you are going wrong is in assuming straight away that the word translated 'found' means exactly what we now use that to mean...eg...'discovered' It does not. It comes from the Hebrew verb Himatzeh which means 'to exist'or 'to come forth'.

This is where we need to understand that our translations of the original can sometimes be somewhat inadequate and initially misleading...but the upside to this is that it really makes you search the Scriptures to double-check and confirm the import of a teaching/doctrine/statement/fact .

Personally I have found that when there is a strange construction to a group of words or the immediate meaning of a sentence or a teaching is not apparent...then there is a good chance the translation is not as good as it might have been and I am forced to search deeper.

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing, but the glory of kings is to search out a matter.

Hope this clarifies things a little more.

Best. Botz.