Women as preacher

[Repent1]

Well, the whole idea that Paul is conveying when we says, "There is neither male or female, Jew or Greek...in Christ..." is concerning salvation and not authority. Early Christians believed that in comming to Christ there were different requirements for sexes and races. A gentile, in their belief, would have to perform more actions in order to get to Christ. A woman, being nothing in the eyes of the Greeks, may not even be able to get saved unless her husband allows it. Thus, Paul was telling them they had it all wrong and that in Christ, at the foot of the cross, they became equal. However this did not deal with church authority seeing as how Paul instituted a set authority within the church.

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Exellent.

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Well said, Well spoken SJ

[kroschild]

Wow-so much to reply to! LOL

First, on why:

Alas for Eve--man and woman used to be on par (in the garden). The thing is, I am sure 99% of people asked to think of the most organized, love-to-speak person they can think of--would think of a woman!! As mothers and career women, we are natural organizers! THAT"S why it was punishment when God told Eve she would be under man!!!

Second, on head coverings:

1 Cor. 11:14-15

14Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering.

Clearly says that a woman's HAIR is her covering--which is why we are not required to cover our heads.

Third, on if and who they can teach:

First, remember that Timothy's instructions from Paul were on behavior in worship. Paul's statement in 1 Tim 2 clearly states that woman is not to have authority over a man--not a brainteaser to figure out when that applies! And his reason why by referencing Eve is clear--woman was placed under man's authority because of Eve's sin!! The only thing I might point out those suggesting that it was because woman is "more susceptible to false doctrine"--don't brag too loudly on that--Adam sinned along with Eve, and he KNEW he was doing wrong!

1 Tim. 2:12--And Adam was not the one deceived

Gen 3:6--When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it

Eve was deceived by Satan--Adam was not, but took anyway! Just a interesting side point.

Finally, women are allowed to be teachers!

Titus 2

Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. 4Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children

Women are natural teachers---check any local school! And this is not a gift that is useless to them, but from God! For they are to teach those younger than themselves!! I also believed that women may be Sunday school teachers based on the fact that they are not taking authority over "men", but children--and how often do Sunday school teachers teach in front of men? Only the children are benefitting from their teaching, so there is no sin. Once a young boy has reached an age where he can accept the Gospel, then he is a man, (whether or not he has made that decision yet). At this point, I believe, the men of the church should take over in his teaching.

Just the opinion of a Christian woman who believes that women are commanded to do quite enough, and don't need to take on the men's responsibility too! LOL

KrosChild

[apothanein kerdos]

Oh wow, excellent post.

[kroschild]

Women can preach.  They take verses in Timothy and misinterpret them.

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Please explain how you think I am misinterpreting Timothy?

Eagerly seeking the truth without end,

KrosChild

[Ovedya]

Wow-so much to reply to! LOL

First, on why:

Alas for Eve--man and woman used to be on par (in the garden).  The thing is, I am sure 99% of people asked to think of the most organized, love-to-speak person they can think of--would think of a woman!! As mothers and career women, we are natural organizers!  THAT"S why it was punishment when God told Eve she would be under man!!!

Second, on head coverings:

1 Cor. 11:14-15

14Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering.

Clearly says that a woman's HAIR is her covering--which is why we are not required to cover our heads.

Third, on if and who they can teach:

First, remember that Timothy's instructions from Paul were on behavior in worship. Paul's statement in 1 Tim 2 clearly states that woman is not to have authority over a man--not a brainteaser to figure out when that applies!  And his reason why by referencing Eve is clear--woman was placed under man's authority because of Eve's sin!!  The only thing I might point out those suggesting that it was because woman is "more susceptible to false doctrine"--don't brag too loudly on that--Adam sinned along with Eve, and he KNEW he was doing wrong!

1 Tim. 2:12--And Adam was not the one deceived

Gen 3:6--When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it

Eve was deceived by Satan--Adam was not, but took anyway!  Just a interesting side point.

Finally, women are allowed to be teachers! 

Titus 2

Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. 4Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children

Women are natural teachers---check any local school!  And this is not a gift that is useless to them, but from God!  For they are to teach those younger than themselves!!  I also believed that women may be Sunday school teachers based on the fact that they are not taking authority over "men", but children--and how often do Sunday school teachers teach in front of men?  Only the children are benefitting from their teaching, so there is no sin.  Once a young boy has reached an age where he can accept the Gospel, then he is a man, (whether or not he has made that decision yet).  At this point, I believe, the men of the church should take over in his teaching.

Just the opinion of a Christian woman who believes that women are commanded to do quite enough, and don't need to take on the men's responsibility too! LOL

KrosChild

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There are a couple of minor points here that I disagree with, but overall this is a very balanced and well thought out post. Thanks, kro!

[papasangel]

Ok here are a few questions

Where in the Bible does it specifically say that a woman is allowed to preach from the pulpit? The nearest I can come to refers to men being chosen to lead as bishops etc. Dosen't mention a woman in that context.

Also yes long hair on a man is not glorified and on a woman is to her glory but I ask. Why consider a natural phenomon to be a covering? If a woman grows her hair long its really a process of nature not a willing submission to the authority of Christ. I wear a covering to signify my willingness to Accept my place in the headship. That place is under my husband who is under Christ who is under God.

I know many churches in which women used to wear coverings ie hats etc but have since discontinued them and the reason given is usually because everyone else dosen't wear one. Just because someone else dosen't wear one is that a good enough excuse? Whatever happened to the commandment that we be seperate from the world?

Just a few thoughts ( ah the fishing is going to be great with this can of worms lol)

[apothanein kerdos]

Ok here are a few questions

Where in the Bible does it specifically say that a woman is allowed to preach from the pulpit?  The nearest I can come to refers to men being chosen to lead as bishops etc.  Dosen't mention a woman in that context.

Also yes long hair on a man is not glorified and on a woman is to her glory but I ask.  Why consider a natural phenomon to be a covering?  If a woman grows her hair long its really a process of nature not a willing submission to the authority of Christ.  I wear a covering to signify my willingness to Accept my place in the headship.  That place is under my husband who is under Christ who is under God.

I know many churches in which women used to wear coverings ie hats etc but have since discontinued them and the reason given is usually because everyone else dosen't wear one.  Just because someone else dosen't wear one is that a good enough excuse?  Whatever happened to the commandment that we be seperate from the world?

Just a few thoughts ( ah the fishing is going to be great with this can of worms lol)

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Head coverings was much more spiritual than literal. After all, if long hair truly and honestly brings shame to a person as we literally take it...does this mean Jesus is shameful?

[Ovedya]

Ok here are a few questions

Where in the Bible does it specifically say that a woman is allowed to preach from the pulpit?

[kroschild]

Oh this is fun!

Ok:

Where in the Bible does it specifically say that a woman is allowed to preach from the pulpit? The nearest I can come to refers to men being chosen to lead as bishops etc. Dosen't mention a woman in that context.

Where does it say anyone can preach from a pulpit? The debate is more over the command not to have authority over a man. I agree that man is head of woman and Christ is head of man.

Why consider a natural phenomon to be a covering?

I was just quoting the scripture. I don't know why it is considered a covering, that's just what the Bible says.

1 Cor 11:14

For long hair is given to her as a covering.

If a woman wants to cover her head with a hat, etc when she is in worship, I see nothing wrong with that either! We are not commanded to uncover our heads like men, and I see nothing wrong with additional covering! Those who do not wear coverings are also covered though, as explained in the verse above.

Head coverings was much more spiritual than literal. After all, if long hair truly and honestly brings shame to a person as we literally take it...does this mean Jesus is shameful?

Who said Jesus had long hair?

Well, maybe not Jesus--but someone else considered holy did. John the Baptist! From what we can deduce from scripture, John was probably a Nazarite (not to be confused with a Nazarene). Men in this order went away from society in an attempt to be close to God. They did not cut their hair during the entire time of seperation, and usually braided their long hair in seven braids as a sign of their devotion. ***Interesting point--Samson was also a Nazarite, which is why there was such an emphasis on cutting his hair--it was a sign of his devotion to God, so when he had his hair cut, it was like him denouncing God and God left him. However, unless you are Jew and a Nazarite, Paul's statement that men should not have long hair holds true!

Seeking truth,

KrosChild

Edited January 14, 2005 by kroschild

[Ovedya]

I don't think John the Baptist was a Nazarite. He certainly was of the proper birth to be a high priest, but I don't know if he was a Nazarite as such.