Revelation 13

[Paradox]

Hi Paradox,

 

I agree that the metal image of Dan. 2 ....

The Dan. 7 `beasts` have been taught as the same as the great image rulers BUT there are 3 reasons why that is not so.

 

1. The `4 beasts,` were yet to arise after Babylon. (Dan. 7: 17    `shall arise...`)

2. The `4 beasts,` arise one at a time but continue to operate in the same time period. (contemporaneously) (Dan.7: 7  Last beast trampled down the rest.) 

3. The `4 beasts,` are world powers but not world rulers when they arise as they are trampled down. The last one eventually becomes world Ruler but note, the first three beasts are given an extension of life after the last world ruler is dealt with. Thus they have to be contemporary powers.  (Dan. 7: 12)

 

 

...

 

If one is talking about 4 successive beasts to rise, then the words "shall arise" can be applied to all without necessarily implying that the first had not begun to rise.

 

It was in the first year of this particular Babylonian king that Daniel had the vision. At that time Babylon had not cast of its wings and stood up like a man yet.

 

In regards to the first three out living the fourth, today we have the nations from Assyria, Persia and Greece, but the Roman empire became Europeans. - the ten horns. The old Roman empire has no more political clout. Its not there anymore, except as the little horn which came out among the European powers - the Papacy, and it has no more political clout either, or does it?

 

Some people keep searching for a mystical future anti-Christ, but it cannot be more obvious than what the reformers taught.

[Salty]

 

Hi Paradox,

 

I agree that the metal image of Dan. 2 ....

The Dan. 7 `beasts` have been taught as the same as the great image rulers BUT there are 3 reasons why that is not so.

 

1. The `4 beasts,` were yet to arise after Babylon. (Dan. 7: 17    `shall arise...`)

2. The `4 beasts,` arise one at a time but continue to operate in the same time period. (contemporaneously) (Dan.7: 7  Last beast trampled down the rest.) 

3. The `4 beasts,` are world powers but not world rulers when they arise as they are trampled down. The last one eventually becomes world Ruler but note, the first three beasts are given an extension of life after the last world ruler is dealt with. Thus they have to be contemporary powers.  (Dan. 7: 12)

 

 

...

 

If one is talking about 4 successive beasts to rise, then the words "shall arise" can be applied to all without necessarily implying that the first had not begun to rise.

 

It was in the first year of this particular Babylonian king that Daniel had the vision. At that time Babylon had not cast of its wings and stood up like a man yet.

 

In regards to the first three out living the fourth, today we have the nations from Assyria, Persia and Greece, but the Roman empire became Europeans. - the ten horns. The old Roman empire has no more political clout. Its not there anymore, except as the little horn which came out among the European powers - the Papacy, and it has no more political clout either, or does it?

 

Some people keep searching for a mystical future anti-Christ, but it cannot be more obvious than what the reformers taught.

 

 

That sounds like the Historicist seminary view that believes the old pagan Roman empire became some kind of ten nation empire in Europe after its fall, wrongly linking it with the Christian Church in Rome. In reality, there was no ten nations of kings under papal rule; that's a myth. But there were small papal states around Rome that the pope ruled over, but not ten specific nations with ten kings.

 

Based on the Historicist views, it makes the Rev.13 beast prophecy as already past history, when it is still yet to occur today.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Paradox,

 

Can you then explain to me why God had to explain the `4 beasts,` to Daniel when God had already explained the Great Image.

 

You also need to look very carefully at when these `4 beasts` operate - at the time of Christ`s second coming.

 

`I watched till the beast was slain, & its body destroyed & given to the burning flame. As for the rest of the beasts (Lion, Bear, & Leopard) they had their dominion  (note not World Rulership) taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season & a time.`   (Dan. 7: 11 & 12)

 

These last 3 Super Powers have their dominion taken away but are able to go into the Millennium time.

[rollinTHUNDER]

Hi Paradox,

 

Can you then explain to me why God had to explain the `4 beasts,` to Daniel when God had already explained the Great Image.

 

You also need to look very carefully at when these `4 beasts` operate - at the time of Christ`s second coming.

 

`I watched till the beast was slain, & its body destroyed & given to the burning flame. As for the rest of the beasts (Lion, Bear, & Leopard) they had their dominion  (note not World Rulership) taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season & a time.`   (Dan. 7: 11 & 12)

 

These last 3 Super Powers have their dominion taken away but are able to go into the Millennium time.

Hi Marilyn,

We sure do interpret that passage differently. We are not even close here.

I see it as Daniel simply watching the vision until its completion, when Christ returns to destroy the fourth beast. The rest of the preceding beasts (Babylon, Media/Persia, and Greece were all succeeded by the following kingdom's in order, and that's how they had their dominion taken away.  They were permitted to live longer because Christ will not return until the fourth beast is ruling, so their judgment will be long after their rule.  This also one of the reasons I believe the Roman empire will be revived.

 

I don't believe any of these kingdoms will enter into the millennium.  If they do, I might be one of the protestors.

 

 

Cheers  

[Marilyn C]

Hi rollinTHUNDER,

 

How do you then see this -

 

`a fourth beast, dreadful & terrifying & extremely strong; & it had large iron teeth. It devoured & crushed & trampled down the remainder with its feet; & it was different from all the beasts...` (Dan. 7: 7)

 

1. Who is it trampling down? (ie. If the RRE is in power who will it trample down?)

2. How is it different from all the others? (ie. What signs do you see that the RRE will be different from the other Wst nations?)

3. How it is `dreadful & terrifying & extremely strong? (How do you see the RRE becoming that powerful & cruel? And even worse than Islam?)

 

 

PS. rollinTHUNDER I hope we will all be together, not protesting but being the `court,` that judges the world systems.

 

`do you not know that the saints will judge the world (system). `

 

`but the court will sit for judgment, & his dominion will be taken away, annihilated & destroyed forever.` (Dan. 7: 26)

 

 

Blessings & great having a chat.  Marilyn. 

[Paradox]

Hi Paradox,

 

Can you then explain to me why God had to explain the `4 beasts,` to Daniel when God had already explained the Great Image.

 

You also need to look very carefully at when these `4 beasts` operate - at the time of Christ`s second coming.

 

`I watched till the beast was slain, & its body destroyed & given to the burning flame. As for the rest of the beasts (Lion, Bear, & Leopard) they had their dominion  (note not World Rulership) taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season & a time.`   (Dan. 7: 11 & 12)

 

These last 3 Super Powers have their dominion taken away but are able to go into the Millennium time.

Daniel wanted to know about the fourth beast 7:19 because it was dreadful, and particularly because it persecuted the saints.

 

The fourth kingdom is Rome and the stout horn which overthrew 3 others of the ten, was the Papacy which persecuted the saints until there were hardly any left, except in the wilderness. Rev 12:6 & 14.

 

Salty, Rome was divided into ten distinct kingdoms, all which had to consent to support the Papacy. Three did not, and lost their kingdoms, by 538 AD through the Justinian decree it began the official full reign ruling until 1798 AD - 1260 years.

[Paradox]

Marilyn C,

 

To try and answer your Q,

 

The vision of the image was given to the king of Babylon, re civil powers he could understand.

The vision of the four beasts was given to Daniel re religious powers and persecution.

The vision of the ram, goat and horn was given to Daniel to show what is behind the world kingdoms - Satan Dan 8:10, Rev 12:4.

[Spock]

Paradox,

You said this.....

Salty, Rome was divided into ten distinct kingdoms, all which had to consent to support the Papacy. Three did not, and lost their kingdoms, by 538 AD through the Justinian decree it began the official full reign ruling until 1798 AD - 1260 years.

Spock: I had read that previously from some site/article, but it didn't find fertile ground with me. I believe these ten toes are strictly during the end times- Daniels 70th week. I do not believe the time Napoleon usurped the popes rule was significant (1798). Thus the 1260 years is irrelevant. I think someone was playing with numbers when they came up with that theory.

[rollinTHUNDER]

Hi rollinTHUNDER,

 

How do you then see this -

 

`a fourth beast, dreadful & terrifying & extremely strong; & it had large iron teeth. It devoured & crushed & trampled down the remainder with its feet; & it was different from all the beasts...` (Dan. 7: 7)

 

1. Who is it trampling down? (ie. If the RRE is in power who will it trample down?)

2. How is it different from all the others? (ie. What signs do you see that the RRE will be different from the other Wst nations?)

3. How it is `dreadful & terrifying & extremely strong? (How do you see the RRE becoming that powerful & cruel? And even worse than Islam?)

Hi Marilyn,

To answer these questions, let's go to the scriptures.

Daniel 7:23-25

Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

 

I believe God gave Daniel this vision to better understand the kingdoms that King Neb saw, to add more detail to these kingdoms.  This fourth kingdom will be different in that it will devour the entire world (global government).  As you know the ancient Roman empire failed to accomplish this.  The Romans controlled Europe, some of the middle east, and the northern nations of Africa as we know them today (all land surrounding the Mediterranean sea).

 

They will devour the whole world, tread it down (with feet) and break it in pieces (10 regions).  This empire will go global, but not until the ten kings arise in the final 42 months, after the abomination of desolation.  These ten kings provide a better understanding of the feet and ten toes of King Neb's dream.  Trampling down the residue with it's feet shows that the revived Roman empire will devour the rest of the world that the ancient Romans failed to conquer.  So the world will be divided into ten regions, and the little horn will be the mouth piece and dictator of the global government.  

 

As far as how dreadful and terrible it will be, I believe Islam will play a major role in the global kingdom, especially since they are known for beheading the infidels. I believe all religions will be accepted, except for true Christianity.  We Christians will be labeled as intolerant for believing that Christ is the only way, the truth and the life; and we will not be taking their mark of the beast as well.  So they will be leading the saints like sheep to the slaughter.

 

 

 

PS. rollinTHUNDER I hope we will all be together, not protesting but being the `court,` that judges the world systems.

 

`do you not know that the saints will judge the world (system). `

 

`but the court will sit for judgment, & his dominion will be taken away, annihilated & destroyed forever.` (Dan. 7: 26)

 

 

Blessings & great having a chat.  Marilyn.

 

I was just kidding about the protesting.   However, I was serious about none of those kingdoms seeing the light of day inside the millennium, just as the verse you quoted above confirms.  Like you, though, I'm still interested in watching this caliphate and wonder how it will turn out.  Time will certainly tell.

 

 

Cheers

[Marilyn C]

Thanks rollinTHUNDER,

 

We agree on quite a bit, especially that Islam will play a major role, as you said. I think when we study together the forming of this Global Government then a lot of bits will come together as we see it unfold.

 

And yes I realised you were having a joke.