Salty Posted July 26, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,665 Content Per Day: 0.46 Reputation: 512 Days Won: 3 Joined: 05/11/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 26, 2014 Thanks for answers. Is it not strange that Jesus title 'morning star' is used in some translations and 'Lucifer' in others? My native language translation actually contains 'Ausrinis' (~= Morningman) there. If you check: http://biblehub.com/isaiah/14-12.htm you can also find shining one and Day Star. So far 4 options instead of Lucifer if you do not like him in your Bible and want something else instead. And I do not think there is other place with Lucifer name. Thing is, the Hebrew word in the manuscripts of Isaiah 14 does mean 'Morning Star', one of Christ's Titles. The difference is, Satan WANTS to be The Morning Star (Jesus, per Rev.22). That's all our Heavenly Father is saying there in Isaiah 14, that Satan has claimed he will exalt himself as The Morning Star (Jesus), i.e., as God. That is how Satan rebelled originally against God, but per this apparently Satan is still... going to try and do that. An easier explanation -- let's say you want to be Elvis, but of course you're not. But you're so in love with the idea of yourself being Elivs, that you still try to assume his identity to the fullest. And you want others to recognize and agree that you are Elvis. That's what our Heaveny Father is saying Satan is trying to do with wanting to be God The Morning Star, a Title that can only apply to Jesus Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salty Posted July 26, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,665 Content Per Day: 0.46 Reputation: 512 Days Won: 3 Joined: 05/11/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 26, 2014 Please don't be puzzled on that brethren. In Isaiah 14 God is mocking Satan and using his own words, what Satan has claimed. At Isaiah 14:4, God reveals He's speaking a 'proverb' against the king of Babylon. That means like a parable (I'll say more on that point later). Very good, Salty!!! That was perhaps the most eloquent explanation I have heard yet. Glad you enjoyed it! Peace to you in Christ Jesus! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurtisCWilson Posted August 2, 2014 Group: Junior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 116 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 44 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/07/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/21/1952 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Please don't be puzzled on that brethren. In Isaiah 14 God is mocking Satan and using his own words, what Satan has claimed. At Isaiah 14:4, God reveals He's speaking a 'proverb' against the king of Babylon. That means like a parable (I'll say more on that point later). Isa 14:12-14 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High." (KJV) The underlined part above are Satan's own words. God is repeating what Satan has claimed he will do against Him. In the first edition 1611 KJV, the translators put "O Day Starre" in the margin as an alternate reading for "Lucifer". They got the name "Lucifer" from the Latin translation. The actual Hebrew word does indeed mean 'morning star'. I'm sure they used the name Lucifer to make sure the reader was not confused as to whom God was really pointing to there in that section of Isaiah 14. But Lucifer, i.e., Satan, is NOT The Morning Star. It's important to pick up the subject context God began that with starting at Isaiah 14:4. He's using the king of Babylon title as a symbolic title for Satan, just like He did in Ezekiel 28 with the titles of "prince of Tyrus" and "king of Tyrus". It's involving how Satan sinned against God in the beginning, and still wants to be God. If you understand Ezekiel 28 as a proverb with God doing the same kind of parable thing there with symbolically pointing to Satan as the "anointed cherub that covereth", and that God originally created him perfect in his ways before he rebelled, then it's the same matter here in this section of Isaiah 14. Satan coveted God's Throne for himself, wanting to be God, when it was Satan's original job to guard God's Throne. Since the title Morning Star is another title for our Lord Jesus Christ per Rev.22, we should well know Satan is not That Morning Star. But Satan wants to be, and there's the rub. In a similar fashion, God uses the same kind of title association in Deut.32:31... Deut 32:31 31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges. (KJV) Little case "rock" compared to upper case "Rock"; what's that mean? Satan is that little "rock", God is our "Rock". By that is meant like that Isaiah 14 Scripture, Satan WANTS to be God, and worshipped as God. That means as our Lord Jesus Christ too, for He is God The Son. Deeper: Why would our Heavenly Father say in Isaiah 14:4 to take up a proverb about the king of Babylon, and then use that in pointing to Satan? The king of Babylon during Jeremiah's day was Nebuchadnezzar, but clearly there in Isaiah 14 that's not who God was speaking about, even though ole' Neb did want to be God, and worshipped as God also. Use your thinking caps brethren, because isn't there still yet an end time Babylon to occur per our Lord's Book of Revelation? Yes. Revelation does not mention a king of Babylon, but it does point directly to a king, a beast king for the last days, and in association with a beast kingdom and a harlot city called... "Babylon" (Rev.17-18). If you've understand that, along with the isaiah 14 Scripture about the "king of Babylon" title applied to Satan by our Heavenly Father in that section of verses, then you ought to be able to fathom what Satan wants to also do for the very end of this world. Did any of Christ's Apostles point to this same idea in Isaiah 14 of Satan wanting to be God, and worshipped as God by the congregation? Well, take another look at what Apostle Paul covered in 2 Thessalonians 2 about the one coming to sit in the temple of God to proclaim himself as God, and over anything called God or that is worshiped, and in 2 Corinthians 11 about the "another Jesus". Really never studied those scriptures before, but knew about them. What you have said bears witness with my spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfaringstranger Posted August 5, 2014 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 6 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/04/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 5, 2014 Please don't be puzzled on that brethren. In Isaiah 14 God is mocking Satan and using his own words, what Satan has claimed. At Isaiah 14:4, God reveals He's speaking a 'proverb' against the king of Babylon. That means like a parable (I'll say more on that point later).Very good, Salty!!! That was perhaps the most eloquent explanation I have heard yet. This! Well stated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jesse Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 Hi Prozacr. We must be very careful with those new bible translations. They are put out there to deceive the many. Jesus is the morning star;and lucifer is the son of the morning. The son of the morning means that he was created early in time. The kjv is purified by God seven times. psalms 12:6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbes Posted August 17, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 130 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 17, 2014 (edited) Morning star is referring to Jesus in Revelations. Contrary to popular church's belief, Lucifer is not the name of Satan in Isaiah. Lucifer is a Latin term meaning daystar; which is another reference to Venus as the visible star in the morning. The "son of the morning" was a symbolic reference to the king for exalting himself over the earth in such a manner that it became offensive to God Himself. If one reads the previous verse, one can discern with His help, that this was not referring to the actual Satan. Isaiah 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. Wishful thinking that this was about Satan. Edited August 17, 2014 by Hobbes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted August 17, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted August 17, 2014 Hi Prozacr. We must be very careful with those new bible translations. They are put out there to deceive the many. Jesus is the morning star;and lucifer is the son of the morning. The son of the morning means that he was created early in time. The kjv is purified by God seven times. psalms 12:6. The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Psalm 12:6 The purificaton process is a reference to the refinement of silver as a precious metal. This is simply a reference to the fact that when God states something, it is pure...it is a comparison...not a process. The KJV is not purified by God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbes Posted August 17, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 130 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 17, 2014 Hi Prozacr. We must be very careful with those new bible translations. They are put out there to deceive the many. Jesus is the morning star;and lucifer is the son of the morning. The son of the morning means that he was created early in time. The kjv is purified by God seven times. psalms 12:6. The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Psalm 12:6 The purificaton process is a reference to the refinement of silver as a precious metal. This is simply a reference to the fact that when God states something, it is pure...it is a comparison...not a process. The KJV is not purified by God. If the KJV is not, then certainly none of the modern Bibles are because they decline from the testimonies of the Son whereas those that loved Him and His words did not decline from the testimony of the Son in the KJV. Could there be rooms for improvement in the KJV? I know of two places, but the message is still there with His help to see, whereas the changes in the modern Bibles are offensive to me because they actually decline from the testimonies of the Son, and are directly supportive of the apostasies today, but again, only Jesus Christ can help you see that. Compare 1 Peter 4:19 and see how the subject of the keeping of our souls has been dropped from which we are entrusting our faith Creator in doing a good job in keeping while we suffer. Compare Romans 8:26-27 and see how Jesus is the One that knows the mind of the Spirit in how the unspeakbale intercessions of the Spirit are being made known. One can know the "he" is the Son of God by Him searching our hearts per Hebrews 4:12-16. Anyway; apostasies abound as some take 1 Peter 4:19 as a validation to make a commitment to do good thus putting on a yoke of bondage that is the same as a promise. And some believe they can pray to the Holy Spirit and receive blessing while ignoring that the Holy Spirit can only speak what He hears ( John 16:13 ) and that Jesus is the only Mediator between God and men, specified the man Christ Jesus because He alone is at the throne of grace as being inbetween us and the Father ( Matthew 18:19-20 & 1 Timothy 2:5 & Hebrews 7:25 & Hebrews 4:12-16 again ) The whole purpose for Him handing our intercessions & the intercessions of the Spirit's to the Father is so that when the Father says "Yes..." the Son answers our prayers and the prayers of the Spirit's so that the Father may be glorified in the Son for answered prayers. John 14:13-14 Which is why Jesus, the Son of God, is really the only way we can come to God the Father in prayer ( John 14:6 & Johnn 10:1,7-9 & John 5:22-23 ), fellowship ( 1 Corinthians 1:9;2:2 ), and worship ( John 13:31-32 & John 17:1-5 & Philippians 2:5-12 ) . All those scripture lines up with the KJV translation that the Son searches our hearts and knows the mind of the Spirit because in according to the will of God, only He can make intercessions for the saints. So verse 27 is answering how the intercessions of the Spirit are made known when they are unspeakbale as the Holy Spirit cannot uetter them or give them Himself, which is why "itself" was used in the KJV. So modern Bibles are testifying falsely that the Holy Spirit actually gives His own prayers Himself and some modern Bibles imply that sounds are being made as if validating tongues without interpretation can be used as a prayer language. Even the NIV committed a grammatical error by concluding in verse 27 that this "he" that searches our hearts as the same "he" that knows the mind of the Spirit, is "the Spirit". Anyway... I find the KJV keeping to the truths in His words without opposing other truths in the Bible regarding the testimonies of the Son as not declining from the testimonies of the Son. John 5:39-40 Psalm 119:157-158 FYI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted August 18, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted August 18, 2014 That's a long response but I was not addressing what you are addressing. I guess you also believe that for some reason the KJV has been purified...which of course it has not since in this same thread you acknowledge that translators can sometimes have no equivalency with regards to language, when going from the orignal Hebrew to English. The King James refers to morning star as Lucifer...so .....not so purified after all using your own litmus test regarding the name Lucifer I was simply addressing the use of the illustration of silver being purified as incorrect. There was no KJV when that verse was written...the verse is simply stating that God's word is pure....in the original language or any language...if it is the word of God it is pure I have no idea why you have gone into some detail regarding how the Holy Spirit works. I find that unsubstantiated 'proof'...that is, subjective processes, are not comparable to what the Bible itself teaches concerning how the Holy Spirit works in our indiviudal lives. Perhaps, at least, we can agree on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted August 18, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,762 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted August 18, 2014 This is not a thread about which translation is right and which is wrong. Please stay on topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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