Is Gog/Magog War=Armageddon War

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

Well said.  There are so many semantic / definition issues when using end times prophecy terms that unless they are clearly, plainly defined there will be unnecessary misunderstandings...tribulation being one of them.  Context is also important.  Don't disregard context.  In Matthew 24 it seems to me that Jesus is talking about the tribulation of believers per verse 9: “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name."  Because of the mark of the beast and other technologies, it will be difficult for believers to escape death.  If those days hadn't been shortened, no "life" ("believer" per context) would be saved.

 

As I see it...immediately after those days, the sixth seal is opened and believers are caught up, followed by the seventh seal which contains the trumpet / bowl judgments.  So I agree that there is a full seven years and what is cut short is the time the believers are persecuted, the "great tribulation".

 

Why would you even think of rearranging John's God given chronology? What you see is not the intent of the Author.

 

"Those days" of "great tribulation" spoken of by Jesus will begin in Revelation in chapter 12 where Satan (using the Beast) goes after those living in Judea who have fled, having seen the abomination, and really get hot after chapter 14, when the mark is established and the image erected for all to worship. The days of great tribulation are at their highest in chapter 15 of Revelation, just before God unleases the plagues and vials.

 

Therefore, the seals are not a part of the 70th week, and "those days" Jesus spoke of will not begin until AFTER the abomination which takes place in chapter 11 of Revelation.

 

LAMAD

 

 

I didn't rearrange anything, just matched it up.

 

In Matthew 24:29 Jesus said:

 

“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.  And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.  And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

 

The sixth seal is described:

 

I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

 

Looks like a match to me.

 

What LOOKS like a match may not BE a match, and it this case certainly is not. The signs in the sun and moon are to be seen TWICE: once at the 6th seal as the fulfillment of the Joel 2 prophecy, and again just before Jesus returns on the white horse, as the fulfillment of the Joel 3 prophecy. If you read more closely, you will see they are DIFFERENT and cannot be the same. If you study Joel, he shows us BOTH signs. They will be over 7 years apart.

 

This is one big error on the part of Van Kampen and Rosenthal, the originators of the prewrath theory; neither recogized that these signs in the sun and moon would happen twice, so in their theories they had to completely rearrange Revelation.

 

LAMAD

Edited August 4, 2014 by iamlamad

[Salty]

 

Mat. 24

¹ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

²² And except those days should be shortened...

 

Note that Jesus did not put a title on any period of time, such as making the entire last half of the week, "the great tribulation." That theory is man's idea, not God's. Next note that Jesus said "THOSE DAYS." The truth is, there will be "DAYS" of great tribulation. "Those days" of "great tribulation" will NOT extend to the end of the 42 months of the Beast's rule. This is the correct meaning.

 

When God our Father decides it is enough, He will send the angels with the vials of His wrath and associated plagues, which will effectively stop the hunting down and murder of the saints, and thereby will SHORTEN "those days" of "great tribulation." "Great tribulation" will be OVER when the Beast and his armies are rendered helpless and not able to hunt down and murder the saints. OF COURSE the Beast will still have his 42 months. OF COURSE the city will be trampled for 42 months. OF COURSE the two witnesses will testify for their 1260 days - and be killed just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ENDS the 70th week. OF COURSE those fleeing will have their entire 1260 days to flee and be protected.

 

The ONLY THING that will be "shortened" will be the number of days during that last 42 months where days of great tribulation are taking place -the hunting down and murder of the saints.  The 70th week will NOT be shortened. The 1260 days and 42 months will NOT be shortened.

 

LAMAD

 

 

Matt.24:21-22

²¹ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

²² And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

When my Lord Jesus said that 22nd verse He was pointing directly to the period He called the "great tribulation" in the previous verse. Even English grammar requires that flow of subject, the subject of what "days" He was speaking of, "those days" of the "great tribulation" He just mentioned.

 

After the establishing of the "abomination of desolation" of Matt.24:15 is when began revealing the events of that period He called the "great tribulation", and it's "those days" He was speaking of in the 22nd verse...

 

Matt.24:15-22

¹⁵ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

¹⁶ Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

¹⁷ Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

¹⁸ Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

¹⁹ And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

²⁰ But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

²¹ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

²² And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

Per the Dan.9:27 prophecy, when is that "abomination of desolation" idol to be setup per the 70 weeks prophecy? In the middle of the final 70th week, the "one week" of Dan.9:27. What da ya know, that's at the START of the final 1260 days, the latter half of Daniel's "one week"!

 

So now, per your argument, that latter half of 1260 days of Daniel's symbolic "one week" is no longer the "great tribulation" time?!?

 

When my Lord Jesus returns, that will end that "great tribulation" time, which of course will not... reach 1260 days long, otherwise what He said in Matt.24:22 would no longer hold true. Then there's the matter of calendar days, which I don't care to go deep into, because per God's calendar, a solar calendar, 1260 days based on a solar year is not the exact amount of time as 42 months per a lunar year. The times Satan and his host is given in months, but for God's two witnesses and His people it's in days, for we are children of the day, and not of the night.

[iamlamad]

 

 

Mat. 24

¹ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

²² And except those days should be shortened...

 

Note that Jesus did not put a title on any period of time, such as making the entire last half of the week, "the great tribulation." That theory is man's idea, not God's. Next note that Jesus said "THOSE DAYS." The truth is, there will be "DAYS" of great tribulation. "Those days" of "great tribulation" will NOT extend to the end of the 42 months of the Beast's rule. This is the correct meaning.

 

When God our Father decides it is enough, He will send the angels with the vials of His wrath and associated plagues, which will effectively stop the hunting down and murder of the saints, and thereby will SHORTEN "those days" of "great tribulation." "Great tribulation" will be OVER when the Beast and his armies are rendered helpless and not able to hunt down and murder the saints. OF COURSE the Beast will still have his 42 months. OF COURSE the city will be trampled for 42 months. OF COURSE the two witnesses will testify for their 1260 days - and be killed just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ENDS the 70th week. OF COURSE those fleeing will have their entire 1260 days to flee and be protected.

 

The ONLY THING that will be "shortened" will be the number of days during that last 42 months where days of great tribulation are taking place -the hunting down and murder of the saints.  The 70th week will NOT be shortened. The 1260 days and 42 months will NOT be shortened.

 

LAMAD

 

 

Matt.24:21-22

²¹ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

²² And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

When my Lord Jesus said that 22nd verse He was pointing directly to the period He called the "great tribulation" in the previous verse. Even English grammar requires that flow of subject, the subject of what "days" He was speaking of, "those days" of the "great tribulation" He just mentioned.

 

After the establishing of the "abomination of desolation" of Matt.24:15 is when began revealing the events of that period He called the "great tribulation", and it's "those days" He was speaking of in the 22nd verse...

 

Matt.24:15-22

¹⁵ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

¹⁶ Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

¹⁷ Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

¹⁸ Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

¹⁹ And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

²⁰ But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

²¹ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

²² And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

Per the Dan.9:27 prophecy, when is that "abomination of desolation" idol to be setup per the 70 weeks prophecy? In the middle of the final 70th week, the "one week" of Dan.9:27. What da ya know, that's at the START of the final 1260 days, the latter half of Daniel's "one week"!

 

So now, per your argument, that latter half of 1260 days of Daniel's symbolic "one week" is no longer the "great tribulation" time?!?

 

When my Lord Jesus returns, that will end that "great tribulation" time, which of course will not... reach 1260 days long, otherwise what He said in Matt.24:22 would no longer hold true. Then there's the matter of calendar days, which I don't care to go deep into, because per God's calendar, a solar calendar, 1260 days based on a solar year is not the exact amount of time as 42 months per a lunar year. The times Satan and his host is given in months, but for God's two witnesses and His people it's in days, for we are children of the day, and not of the night.

 

Salty, you are doing it again! You are reading into a passage what is really NOT THERE! "THE great tribulation" is only FICTION, created by man. Jesus did not put such a title on anything.  Search the Greek text: "THE" is not in the original text. It is NOT "the" great tribulation. It will be "those days" of "great tribulation." "those days" Jesus spoke of were not spoken of as a TITLE of something. There will be no "the great tribulation." What there will be will be "DAYS" of great tribulation, where great pressure will be put upon people to take the mark or lose their head; or take the mark to get a drink of water. Every time you wrote it, you ADDED "the." Why did you do that?

 

"So now, per your argument, that latter half of 1260 days of Daniel's symbolic "one week" is no longer the "great tribulation" time?!?"

 

You did it yet AGAIN! You are puting a title on the last half of the week, that Jesus NEVER DID. The truth is, starting at the abomination, there will be DAYS of 'great tribulation." IT IS NOT A TITLE: it is a discription of what 'those days" will be like. Remember, "those days" will not cover the entire 42 months of the second half of the week.

 

"When my Lord Jesus returns, that will end that "great tribulation" time,"

 

Actually, this is not true either: "those days" of "great tribulation" will end with the vials, some time late in the second 42 months - and this will certainly be BEFORE Jesus returns.  And Jesus will not return at the 7th vial that ends the week. He will remain in heaven for the marriage and supper - an UNKNOWN period of time. so NO ONE will know the moment He returns.

 

LAMAD

[Salty]

Salty, you are doing it again! You are reading into a passage what is really NOT THERE! "THE great tribulation" is only FICTION, created by man. Jesus did not put such a title on anything.  Search the Greek text: "THE" is not in the original text. It is NOT "the" great tribulation. It will be "those days" of "great tribulation." "those days" Jesus spoke of were not spoken of as a TITLE of something. There will be no "the great tribulation." What there will be will be "DAYS" of great tribulation, where great pressure will be put upon people to take the mark or lose their head; or take the mark to get a drink of water. Every time you wrote it, you ADDED "the." Why did you do that?

 

 

 

Matt.24:21

²¹ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

Mark 13:19

¹⁹ For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

 

Dan.12:1

12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:...

 

You mean we can't put an article in front of it because it is pointing to a SPECIFIC time on earth that has never been the likes before? Certainly we can, even if it ticks off the Scripture lawyers, because The Lord DID... use that expression to point to a SPECIFIC time of tribulation upon His servants on the earth that has never been the likes before, and never will be another time like it again.

 

Can we say it's the time of 'a' great tribulation? Not really, because just saying 'a' tribulation does not point out per those Scriptures that it's about 'a' SPECIFIC tribulation time like never before, nor will be again, like The Lord showed there above.

 

So that little side-track of your's isn't going to delete what Jesus said in the Matt.24:22 verse that those days of that "great tribulation" will be shortened for His elect's sake.

[Last Daze]

 

 

 

 

Well said.  There are so many semantic / definition issues when using end times prophecy terms that unless they are clearly, plainly defined there will be unnecessary misunderstandings...tribulation being one of them.  Context is also important.  Don't disregard context.  In Matthew 24 it seems to me that Jesus is talking about the tribulation of believers per verse 9: “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name."  Because of the mark of the beast and other technologies, it will be difficult for believers to escape death.  If those days hadn't been shortened, no "life" ("believer" per context) would be saved.

 

As I see it...immediately after those days, the sixth seal is opened and believers are caught up, followed by the seventh seal which contains the trumpet / bowl judgments.  So I agree that there is a full seven years and what is cut short is the time the believers are persecuted, the "great tribulation".

 

Why would you even think of rearranging John's God given chronology? What you see is not the intent of the Author.

 

"Those days" of "great tribulation" spoken of by Jesus will begin in Revelation in chapter 12 where Satan (using the Beast) goes after those living in Judea who have fled, having seen the abomination, and really get hot after chapter 14, when the mark is established and the image erected for all to worship. The days of great tribulation are at their highest in chapter 15 of Revelation, just before God unleases the plagues and vials.

 

Therefore, the seals are not a part of the 70th week, and "those days" Jesus spoke of will not begin until AFTER the abomination which takes place in chapter 11 of Revelation.

 

LAMAD

 

 

I didn't rearrange anything, just matched it up.

 

In Matthew 24:29 Jesus said:

 

“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.  And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.  And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

 

The sixth seal is described:

 

I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

 

Looks like a match to me.

 

What LOOKS like a match may not BE a match, and it this case certainly is not. The signs in the sun and moon are to be seen TWICE: once at the 6th seal as the fulfillment of the Joel 2 prophecy, and again just before Jesus returns on the white horse, as the fulfillment of the Joel 3 prophecy. If you read more closely, you will see they are DIFFERENT and cannot be the same. If you study Joel, he shows us BOTH signs. They will be over 7 years apart.

 

This is one big error on the part of Van Kampen and Rosenthal, the originators of the prewrath theory; neither recogized that these signs in the sun and moon would happen twice, so in their theories they had to completely rearrange Revelation.

 

LAMAD

 

 

What about the stars falling from the sky?  You forgot that one.  How many times does that happen?

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

 

 

Well said.  There are so many semantic / definition issues when using end times prophecy terms that unless they are clearly, plainly defined there will be unnecessary misunderstandings...tribulation being one of them.  Context is also important.  Don't disregard context.  In Matthew 24 it seems to me that Jesus is talking about the tribulation of believers per verse 9: “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name."  Because of the mark of the beast and other technologies, it will be difficult for believers to escape death.  If those days hadn't been shortened, no "life" ("believer" per context) would be saved.

 

As I see it...immediately after those days, the sixth seal is opened and believers are caught up, followed by the seventh seal which contains the trumpet / bowl judgments.  So I agree that there is a full seven years and what is cut short is the time the believers are persecuted, the "great tribulation".

 

Why would you even think of rearranging John's God given chronology? What you see is not the intent of the Author.

 

"Those days" of "great tribulation" spoken of by Jesus will begin in Revelation in chapter 12 where Satan (using the Beast) goes after those living in Judea who have fled, having seen the abomination, and really get hot after chapter 14, when the mark is established and the image erected for all to worship. The days of great tribulation are at their highest in chapter 15 of Revelation, just before God unleases the plagues and vials.

 

Therefore, the seals are not a part of the 70th week, and "those days" Jesus spoke of will not begin until AFTER the abomination which takes place in chapter 11 of Revelation.

 

LAMAD

 

 

I didn't rearrange anything, just matched it up.

 

In Matthew 24:29 Jesus said:

 

“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.  And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.  And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

 

The sixth seal is described:

 

I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

 

Looks like a match to me.

 

What LOOKS like a match may not BE a match, and it this case certainly is not. The signs in the sun and moon are to be seen TWICE: once at the 6th seal as the fulfillment of the Joel 2 prophecy, and again just before Jesus returns on the white horse, as the fulfillment of the Joel 3 prophecy. If you read more closely, you will see they are DIFFERENT and cannot be the same. If you study Joel, he shows us BOTH signs. They will be over 7 years apart.

 

This is one big error on the part of Van Kampen and Rosenthal, the originators of the prewrath theory; neither recogized that these signs in the sun and moon would happen twice, so in their theories they had to completely rearrange Revelation.

 

LAMAD

 

 

What about the stars falling from the sky?  You forgot that one.  How many times does that happen?

 

No, I did not forget. In 1833 the sky was lit up with "falling stars." It was so bright at night one could read with all the falling meteorites. Yet, today we certainly still see stars. Stars can represent churches. Stars can represent angels or fallen angels. And stars can be falling meteorites. In Rev. 6 "the stars of heaven fell to the earth" yet in Rev. 8 a third of the stars were darkened. Therefore we can be sure that in Rev 6 real stars did not fall and disappear.

 

The truth is, these signs in the sun and moon happen twice. When one understands this truth, they find Revelation is in perfect order and nothing has to be rearranged to fit a theory.

 

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect, and WILL be proven wrong.

 

LAMAD

Edited August 4, 2014 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

 

Salty, you are doing it again! You are reading into a passage what is really NOT THERE! "THE great tribulation" is only FICTION, created by man. Jesus did not put such a title on anything.  Search the Greek text: "THE" is not in the original text. It is NOT "the" great tribulation. It will be "those days" of "great tribulation." "those days" Jesus spoke of were not spoken of as a TITLE of something. There will be no "the great tribulation." What there will be will be "DAYS" of great tribulation, where great pressure will be put upon people to take the mark or lose their head; or take the mark to get a drink of water. Every time you wrote it, you ADDED "the." Why did you do that?

 

 

 

Matt.24:21

²¹ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

Mark 13:19

¹⁹ For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

 

Dan.12:1

12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:...

 

You mean we can't put an article in front of it because it is pointing to a SPECIFIC time on earth that has never been the likes before? Certainly we can, even if it ticks off the Scripture lawyers, because The Lord DID... use that expression to point to a SPECIFIC time of tribulation upon His servants on the earth that has never been the likes before, and never will be another time like it again.

 

Can we say it's the time of 'a' great tribulation? Not really, because just saying 'a' tribulation does not point out per those Scriptures that it's about 'a' SPECIFIC tribulation time like never before, nor will be again, like The Lord showed there above.

 

So that little side-track of your's isn't going to delete what Jesus said in the Matt.24:22 verse that those days of that "great tribulation" will be shortened for His elect's sake.

 

Forget "deleting" or "adding." Just understand that Jesus did NOT put a title on any time period. Take off your preconceived glasses and read exactly what it says: there will be "those days" of "great tribulation." And we know "those days" will have greater tribulation than any time past or future. Why is that? It will be just like a Jew trying to hide in Berlin in 1943, but this time it will be worldwide. "Tribulation" or great pressure put on people could not be worse that for a Jew hiding in Berlin back then. It was just about 100% guaranteed he or she would be put to death. It will be the same for "those days" coming, except this time it will be worldwide: there will be very few places to hide.

 

The Beast has been given 42 months of authority. He could have been allowed to continue his murderous rampage for the entire 42 months, but God will pour out the vials of His wrath that will cause "great tribulation" to cease. After the vials, no one will be out hunting down a believer to kill him or her.  So "those days" where people will be forced to take the mark and worship the idol or lose their head will be "shortened," they will not continue for the entire 42 months of the Beast's God given authority. HOWEVER, He will still have His 42 months of authority. That is written and cannot be changed. What will be shortened is the number of days believers and Hebrews will be hunted down and murdered.

 

This is not "deleting" what Jesus said, it is UNDERSTANDING it. Why not just say what Jesus said, there will be days of great tribulation? No one knows how many days or how long after the abomination God will wait before He begins the vials of His wrath.

 

LAMAD

[Montana Marv]

Lets look at Daniel 12: 11-13 - From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that cause desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.  Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.  As for you, go your way till the end.  You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.

 

It appears that after the full 70th Week of Daniel there is an additional 30 day period and a 45 day period after which Daniel will rise to receive his inheritance.  So the end of days is after the 30 and 45 extra day periods.  This is when the Second Coming happens.  The end of days is the beginning of the Mill. 

 

Dan 12:7 - The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever saying, "It will be for a time, times, and half a time.  When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed".

 

Salty, does this "all these things will be completed" bother you in any way.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Last Daze]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well said.  There are so many semantic / definition issues when using end times prophecy terms that unless they are clearly, plainly defined there will be unnecessary misunderstandings...tribulation being one of them.  Context is also important.  Don't disregard context.  In Matthew 24 it seems to me that Jesus is talking about the tribulation of believers per verse 9: “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name."  Because of the mark of the beast and other technologies, it will be difficult for believers to escape death.  If those days hadn't been shortened, no "life" ("believer" per context) would be saved.

 

As I see it...immediately after those days, the sixth seal is opened and believers are caught up, followed by the seventh seal which contains the trumpet / bowl judgments.  So I agree that there is a full seven years and what is cut short is the time the believers are persecuted, the "great tribulation".

 

Why would you even think of rearranging John's God given chronology? What you see is not the intent of the Author.

 

"Those days" of "great tribulation" spoken of by Jesus will begin in Revelation in chapter 12 where Satan (using the Beast) goes after those living in Judea who have fled, having seen the abomination, and really get hot after chapter 14, when the mark is established and the image erected for all to worship. The days of great tribulation are at their highest in chapter 15 of Revelation, just before God unleases the plagues and vials.

 

Therefore, the seals are not a part of the 70th week, and "those days" Jesus spoke of will not begin until AFTER the abomination which takes place in chapter 11 of Revelation.

 

LAMAD

 

 

I didn't rearrange anything, just matched it up.

 

In Matthew 24:29 Jesus said:

 

“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.  And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.  And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

 

The sixth seal is described:

 

I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

 

Looks like a match to me.

 

What LOOKS like a match may not BE a match, and it this case certainly is not. The signs in the sun and moon are to be seen TWICE: once at the 6th seal as the fulfillment of the Joel 2 prophecy, and again just before Jesus returns on the white horse, as the fulfillment of the Joel 3 prophecy. If you read more closely, you will see they are DIFFERENT and cannot be the same. If you study Joel, he shows us BOTH signs. They will be over 7 years apart.

 

This is one big error on the part of Van Kampen and Rosenthal, the originators of the prewrath theory; neither recogized that these signs in the sun and moon would happen twice, so in their theories they had to completely rearrange Revelation.

 

LAMAD

 

 

What about the stars falling from the sky?  You forgot that one.  How many times does that happen?

 

No, I did not forget. In 1833 the sky was lit up with "falling stars." It was so bright at night one could read with all the falling meteorites. Yet, today we certainly still see stars. Stars can represent churches. Stars can represent angels or fallen angels. And stars can be falling meteorites. In Rev. 6 "the stars of heaven fell to the earth" yet in Rev. 8 a third of the stars were darkened. Therefore we can be sure that in Rev 6 real stars did not fall and disappear.

 

The truth is, these signs in the sun and moon happen twice. When one understands this truth, they find Revelation is in perfect order and nothing has to be rearranged to fit a theory.

 

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect, and WILL be proven wrong.

 

LAMAD

 

 

Time will tell.  You're entitled to your interpretation.  Just don't worship the false prophet (antichrist).  We can compare notes in heaven, but I'm guessing it won't be a big deal then.

[Salty]

Forget "deleting" or "adding." Just understand that Jesus did NOT put a title on any time period. Take off your preconceived glasses and read exactly what it says: there will be "those days" of "great tribulation." And we know "those days" will have greater tribulation than any time past or future. Why is that? It will be just like a Jew trying to hide in Berlin in 1943, but this time it will be worldwide. "Tribulation" or great pressure put on people could not be worse that for a Jew hiding in Berlin back then. It was just about 100% guaranteed he or she would be put to death. It will be the same for "those days" coming, except this time it will be worldwide: there will be very few places to hide.

 

 

The Beast has been given 42 months of authority. He could have been allowed to continue his murderous rampage for the entire 42 months, but God will pour out the vials of His wrath that will cause "great tribulation" to cease. After the vials, no one will be out hunting down a believer to kill him or her.  So "those days" where people will be forced to take the mark and worship the idol or lose their head will be "shortened," they will not continue for the entire 42 months of the Beast's God given authority. HOWEVER, He will still have His 42 months of authority. That is written and cannot be changed. What will be shortened is the number of days believers and Hebrews will be hunted down and murdered.

 

This is not "deleting" what Jesus said, it is UNDERSTANDING it. Why not just say what Jesus said, there will be days of great tribulation? No one knows how many days or how long after the abomination God will wait before He begins the vials of His wrath.

 

LAMAD

 

 

You've already worn that old hat out. It doesn't work.

 

That "great tribulation" per those Scriptures of God's Word is about a specific time upon the earth. It is marked by the beginning placement of the "abomination of desolation" Jesus mentioned along with it from the Book of Daniel.