Where is the Body of Christ in the Millennium?

[Marilyn C]

Hi Sister,

 

I am replying to your post #109. We do agree on some things - millennium, & us being Kings & priests in glorified bodies. However we do differ in our belief as to where the Body of Christ is in the Millennium. You brought out that scripture -

 

`And hast made us unto our God kings & priests: & we shall reign `epi` over the earth.` (Rev. 5: 10)

 

Notice I put in the Greek word `epi,` which is `over,` not `on` the earth. Different translations have put in the wrong word thus causing confusion. We also need to look at all the other scriptures pertaining to this topic to see what God is saying to us.

 

`Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling...` (Heb. 3: 1)

`...the hope laid up for you in heaven...` (Col. 1: 5)

`...to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable & undefiled & will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,..`(1 Peter 1: 4)

` For our citizenship is in heaven...` (Phil. 3: 20)

 

Concerning the Old testament scriptures you used, saying that they are the Body of Christ, this cannot be so. The Body of Christ was a mystery, hidden from the Old Testament prophets & only revealed to the Apostle Paul by the Holy Spirit.

[ENOCH2010]

Daniel forget Mary, just show me chapter and verse for a pre-trib resurrection of the believers.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Argosy,

 

Remember you said this in post #107 -

 

 

`5. You use the words "not plausible". It is plausible. Just because we are "surrounded" does not mean we are "contained", the bible does not use the word contained. I agree we cannot be contained. We are free to leave but have no reason to leave because we know that God will destroy them. Its possible that you find evidence for your position elsewhere in the bible, and I am open to it, but Rev 20:7-10 does not contain any information that can help your case.`

 

Glad to see you are `open` to other evidence that I believe Jesus does not stay on earth during the Millennium. You would be familiar with what Jesus said in John 5 concerning the authority the God the Father has given Him.

 

`For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given ALL JUDGMENT TO THE SON. (John 5: 23)

 

The point I am bringing out is if you say Jesus (& the Body of Christ) are in Jerusalem at the end of the millennium, surrounded by Satan & the nations, then why does not Jesus bring the judgment. He is apparently waiting as you said else where for God the Father to bring judgment. Do you see we have a contradiction there. Either the Father gave ALL judgment to the Son or He did not. What say you? 

[Persuaded]

`And hast made us unto our God kings & priests: & we shall reign `epi` over the earth.` (Rev. 5: 10)

 

Notice I put in the Greek word `epi,` which is `over,` not `on` the earth. Different translations have put in the wrong word thus causing confusion. We also need to look at all the other scriptures pertaining to this topic to see what God is saying to us.

In checking your sums I'm getting a different answer here, Marilyn.

 

Where do you find epi meaning "over" rather than "on"?

Every mainstream translation, lexicon, and concordance I can find says it is pretty clearly "on or upon".

In other scripture, it is overwhelmingly translated "on, upon, in, unto, to", but nowhere that I've found is it "over".

[Persuaded]

 

You also mentioned 2 Cor. 11: 2. Here we see that it is the Apostle Paul speaking to his disciples & saying to them that he wants to present them to the Lord, pure & spotless in their devotion to Christ. Paul will not present us to Christ. That scripture is specifically for Paul`s disciples at that time.

 

You've used this argument before, that the verse is somehow for Paul's disciples. In reading (again) the whole context, I don't see where this idea comes from. Can you describe aspect of the passage limits the application to a subset of the letter's intended audience?

 

And, your argument seems to come from an odd understanding of "present". The word present (paristemi) has more meaning than "to physically hand over". From context, it seems to be used as "to show by argument, prove".

 

to place beside or near

to set at hand

to present

to proffer

to provide

to place a person or thing at one's disposal

to present a person for another to see and question

to present or show

to bring to, bring near

metaph. i.e to bring into one's fellowship or intimacy

to present (show) by argument, to prove

to stand beside, stand by or near, to be at hand, be present

to stand by

to stand beside one, a bystander

to appear

to be at hand, stand ready

to stand by to help, to succour

to be present

to have come

of time

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Persuaded.

 

Is there a rule against wine in heaven, in the Father's kingdom?

 

The Father’s Kingdom is not IN “heaven!"

[Marilyn C]

Hi Persuaded,
 
Glad you are following & checking up. Now you asked -
 

`Where do you find epi meaning "over" rather than "on"?`

 
I found it in the `Strong`s concordance, Gk. 1909 - `epi.` meaning a superimposition (of time, place, order etc) as a relation of distribution ie. over,.......
It is also used as `on,` so that is why we need to look at all the other scriptures on the topic to find out what God is saying on this matter.

 

 

Also with regard to Paul talking to his disciples - You said -

`You've used this argument before, that the verse is somehow for Paul's disciples. In reading (again) the whole context, I don't see where this idea comes from. Can you describe aspect of the passage limits the application to a subset of the letter's intended audience?`

 

Glad to see you remembered what I had said. When we read the context it becomes obvious that he is talking specifically to his disciples. Here is some of it.

 

`...or did I commit a sin in humbling myself that you might be exalted, because I preached the gospel of God to you without charge? I robbed other churches, taking wages from them to serve you; & when I was present with you & was in need, I was not a burden to anyone. for when the brethren came from Macedonia, they fully supplied my need, & in everything I kept myself from being a burden to you & will continue to do so.`  (2 Cor.11: 7 - 9)

 

 

 

 

[Persuaded]

Is the Father's throne located outside His kingdom?

Matthew 5:34 (NKJV) 34 "But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne;

Revelation 4:2 (NKJV) 2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne.

I don't think a technical argument that uses a narrow definition of heaven holds up. "Heaven" is used too broadly to be pedantic over it. "Kingdom of heaven" is similarly broad, having many connotations in different contexts.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Marilyn C.

 

Hi Sister,

 

I am replying to your post #109. We do agree on some things - millennium, & us being Kings & priests in glorified bodies. However we do differ in our belief as to where the Body of Christ is in the Millennium. You brought out that scripture -

 

`And hast made us unto our God kings & priests: & we shall reign `epi` over the earth.` (Rev. 5: 10)

 

Notice I put in the Greek word `epi,` which is `over,` not `on` the earth. Different translations have put in the wrong word thus causing confusion. We also need to look at all the other scriptures pertaining to this topic to see what God is saying to us.

 

`Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling...` (Heb. 3: 1)

`...the hope laid up for you in heaven...` (Col. 1: 5)

`...to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable & undefiled & will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,..`(1 Peter 1: 4)

` For our citizenship is in heaven...` (Phil. 3: 20)

 

Concerning the Old testament scriptures you used, saying that they are the Body of Christ, this cannot be so. The Body of Christ was a mystery, hidden from the Old Testament prophets & only revealed to the Apostle Paul by the Holy Spirit.

 

This is a good reason for NOT letting the Greek word “ouranos” mean “heaven!” It means “the sky” or “the atmosphere!”  Also, one would be wise to let the Greek word “gee” mean “GROUND,” if he/she doesn’t understand what “earth” means!

 

Look, when the Bible was written, society was primarily agricultural. When they looked up and saw the “ouranos,” they saw the SKY above their heads! They saw clouds, birds, the sun, the moon, and at night, the stars, including “wanderers” (“planeetees”) and “falling stars” or “meteors.” When they looked at the ground, they saw the “earth” - the “DIRT!” They saw “gee” - the “LAND!"

 

Now, consider 1 Corinthians 15:40-42

 

Pros Korinthious A 15:40-42

40 kai soomata epourania, kai soomata epigeia; alla hetera men hee toon epouranioon doxa, hetera de hee toon epigeioon.

41 Allee doxa heeliou, kai allee doxa seleenees, kai allee doxa asteroon; asteer gar asteros diaferei en doxee.

42 Houtoos kai hee anastatisch toon nekroon. Speiretai en fthora, egeiretai en aftharsia;…

The Greek New Testament (UBS)

 

40 kai = 40 and/also

soomata = a-body

epourania, = of-above-the-sky,

kai = and/also

soomata = a-body

epigeia; = of-above-the-ground;

alla = but

hetera = a-different

men = one

hee = the

toon = of-the

epouranioon = above-the-sky

doxa, = glory/brightness,

hetera = a-different

de = but

hee = the

toon = of-the

epigeioon. = above-the-ground.

41 Allee = 41 A-different

doxa = glory/brightness

heeliou, = of-sun,

kai = and/also

allee = a-different

doxa = glory/brightness

seleenees, = of-moon,

kai = and/also

allee = a-different

doxa = glory/brightness

asteroon; = of-stars;

asteer = a-star

gar = for

asteros = a-star

diaferei = carries

en = in

doxee. = glory/brightness.

42 Houtoos = 42 In-this-way

kai = and/also

hee = the

anastasis = resurrection

toon = from-the

nekroon. = dead-[ones].

Speiretai = It-is-sown

en = in

fthora, = decay/ruin,

egeiretai = it-is-raised

en = in

aftharsia;… = incorruptiblity;…

 

40 and/also a-body of-above-the-sky, and/also a-body of-above-the-ground; but a-different one the of-the above-the-sky glory/brightness, a-different but the of-the-above-the-ground.

41 A-different glory/brightness of-sun, and/also a-different glory/brightness of-moon, and/also a-different glory/brightness of-stars; a-star for a-star carries in glory/brightness.

42 In-this-way and/also the resurrection from-the dead-[ones]. It-is-sown in decay/ruin, it-is-raised in incorruptibility;…

 

Understand this: “epi” CAN mean “over” or “above,” but in this case AND IN THE VERSES YOU QUOTED, it means “UPON!” We live “epigeia”; that is, we live “UPON THE GROUND!"

 

So, when one reads Revelation 5:10:

 

Apokalupsis Iooannou 5:10

10 Kai epoieesas autous too Theoo heemoon basileian kai hiereis, kai basileusousin epi tees gees.

The Greek New Testament (UBS)

 

10 Kai = 10 And/Also

epoieesas = have-made

autous = us

too = to-the

Theoo = God

heemoon = unto-our

basileian = kings

kai = and/also

hiereis, = priests,

kai = and/also

basileusousin = we-shall-reign

epi = ABOVE/OVER/UPON

tees = the

gees. = GROUND/LAND.

 

10 And/Also have-made us to-the God unto-our kings and/also priests, and/also we-shall-reign UPON the GROUND/LAND.

 

And, to make it short, I’ll just include the Greek word in each verse:

 

Hebrews 3:1

3 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly (epouraniou) calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

KJV

 

A calling "from above the sky."

 

Colossians 1:5

5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven (en tois ouranois), whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

KJV

 

"in the skies."

 

1 Peter 1:4

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven (en ouranois) for you,

KJV

 

an inheritance reserved "in skies."

 

Philippians 3:20

20 For our conversation is in heaven (politeuma en ouranois); from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

KJV

 

“community in skies."

 

There’s SO MUCH to go into to decipher what you are reading! Suffice it to say that there is MUCH MORE to investigate than just looking up the words “heaven” or “heavenly” in an English concordance!

[Marilyn C]

Hi Retrobyter,

 

I see you wrote `epi,` above, over, upon. And as I have said before we need to read all the scriptures concerning this topic. So can you give more scriptures to show that the Body of Christ is on the earth in the millennium? Concerning the word heaven we have had a discussion on that & scripture does give explanations & details. I get a sense that you think God`s throne is in the universe. Is that what you think?

 

And Persuaded,

 

You may like to find some scriptures also that tell us that the Body of Christ is on earth in the millennium. I agree with what you said about heaven. though.

Edited October 24, 2014 by Marilyn C