Israel (Jews) and Our Views

[Qnts2]

 

Covenant Theology and 'replacement theology' are not the same thing - indeed the concept of 'replacement theology' is largely a straw man construct the results from an inability to distinguish between terms that the covenant theologians use, but dispensational theologians conflate, like 'Israel' and 'the Israel of God' 

 

 

 

Covenant Theology is predominantly taught by Reformed/Calvinists. Now, the issue is that Calvinism had a fairly large group which believed in Dispensational theology, but as the views of Calvinism have shifted to a more hyper position, there has also been a shift of Covenantal theology.

 

The largest issue with Covenantal theology, is the inability to recognize what and who is chosen. Calvinism identifies the chosen/elect as those chosen by God for salvation. Calvinism can not deal with another group referred to as chosen, so since Israel was chosen, Israel must be the church. It is a forcing of the scripture to fit the mold of a theology rather then deriving a theology from scripture. It is inconceivable to Calvinists that Israel, the descendents of Jacob, could be chosen by God for a purpose, and as a people/nation, receive a covenant, which did not include salvation but is a covenant between a chosen people and God. So Covenantal theology sees only one covenant and one chosen people, the New Covenant and the church, and ignores or denies or reinterprets the rest.  

[Guest shiloh357]

Is Moses not in the assemble of saints? Is not Abraham? Jacob? Daniel? Isaiah and all the prophets? We are one body in Him through the promise and through the blood. But don't believe me - believe what the Scriptures tell us.

Exhibit #A

Exodus 3:15

Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’

Psalms 105:6

O seed of Abraham His servant, You children of Jacob, His chosen ones!

Isaiah 29:22

Therefore thus says the LORD, who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob:

“Jacob shall not now be ashamed, Nor shall his face now grow pale;

Isaiah 41:8

“But you, Israel, are My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, The descendants of Abraham My friend.

Micah 7:20

You will give truth to Jacob And mercy to Abraham, which You have sworn to our fathers from days of old.

Matthew 8:10-11 When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, "Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 13:28

“There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.

John 4:21-26

Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming" (who is called Christ). "When He comes, He will tell us all things." Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He."

Romans 11:1

I say then,has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Now unto the issue of Israel's rejection of the Messiah, the Christ, promised by Moses and really all the way back in Genesis.

I think Guzik does a fair job with this, although he maintains the first fruits of the Church were the first Jewish believers, whereas happen to believe it was the Patriarchs. I believe this based on the following Scriptures.

The Lord showed Abraham the numerous stars that would be his sons and daughters

Exhibit #B

Genesis 15:3-6 Then Abram said, "Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!" And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir." Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

Moses was part of the ministry of Christ

Exhibit #C

Deuteronomy 18:18-19 'I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him.

John 5:46 “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me.

That the prophets were joined to Jesus is clearly shown by our NT witnesses

Exhibit #D

Matthew 17:1-4 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah."

 

The OT saints like Moses were not and are not included in "The Church."   The Church age is not taught in the Old Testament.   There is no inclusion of OT saints in the Church anywhere in the NT.   The Church began at Pentecost, not in the OT.

 

Exhibit E#

Now the below commentary I believe addresses much of this pretty well, although I'm not in total agreement with David.

http://www.blbclassi...31&topic=Romans

Conclusion the Gentile Church has been grafted into the root, the promise to Abraham, the whole lump is holy. God's promises are irrevocable and when the time of the Gentiles has been fulfilled, near or in the end times, Israel will come to Christ, according to God's plan of Salvation

Zechariah 12:10

“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Luke 13:34 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

 

Okay so I am not sure what argument of mine you are trying to address with that commentary.

[Macs Son]

The OT saints like Moses were not and are not included in "The Church."   The Church age is not taught in the Old Testament.   There is no inclusion of OT saints in the Church anywhere in the NT.   The Church began at Pentecost, not in the OT.

I disagree Shiloh - you are ignoring a plethora of Scripture that tells that the Church is the Body of Christ. Now what makes us part of the Lord's Body is the Holy Spirit of God by whom the prophets prophesied and foretold of Christ's coming - preparing His Way. Now these are the also part of the Lord's Body as well - else they would not be in the Kingdom as the Lord stated they were; His comment being the Gentile Church would join these.

We are only in Christ by the Holy Spirit if one does not have the Holy Spirit you are simply not His.

Romans 8:9

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Now OT Prophets prophesied by the Holy Spirit so it logically follows that they are His (in Christ & in the Body)

1Corinthians 12:28

And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

Now Christ is the sure head of the Body. He is the Bridegroom and the Church is His Bride as Paul says:

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.

....

Ephesians 5:28-32 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." [This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Christ is the firstborn of the Body

Colossians 1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

He continues .....

Colossians 1:24-26

I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.

Lest we make the error that time dictates the hand of God's plan. He is simply not subservient to time, either before and after, concerning "the Church". The author of Hebrews straightens us out on this point. (i.e. Please note the allusion to Abraham and the stars which I put in my last post. The Church encompasses all the sons of Abraham - spiritually born)

Hebrews 11:8-13

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise;for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

13-16. Summary of the characteristic excellencies of the patriarchs' faith

died in faith--died as believers, waiting for, not actually seeing as yet their good things promised to them. They were true to this principle of faith even unto, and especially in, their dying hour (compare Hbr 11:20 ).

These all--beginning with "Abraham" ( Hbr 11:8 ), to whom the promises were made ( Gal 3:16 ), and who is alluded to in the end of Hbr 11:13 and in Hbr 11:15 [bENGEL and ALFORD]. But the "ALL" can hardly but include Abel, Enoch, and Noah. Now as these did not receive the promise of entering literal Canaan, some other promise made in the first ages, and often repeated, must be that meant, namely, the promise of a coming Redeemer made to Adam, namely, "the seed of the woman shall bruise the serpent's head." Thus the promises cannot have been merely temporal, for Abel and Enoch mentioned here received no temporal promise [ARCHBISHOP MAGEE]. This promise of eternal redemption is the inner essence of the promises made to Abraham ( Gal 3:16 ).

not having received--It was this that constituted their "faith." If they had "received" THE THING PROMISED (so "the promises" here mean: the plural is used because of the frequent renewal of the promise to the patriarchs: Hbr 11:17 says he did receive the promises, but not the thing promised), it would have been sight, not faith.

seen them afar off-- ( Jhn 8:56 ). Christ, as the Word, was preached to the Old Testament believers, and so became the seed of life to their souls, as He is to ours.

Hence they too both before and after belong to Christ's body and are hence, "the Church".

Father Abraham had many sons, many sons had Father Abraham, I am one of them and so are you - So let's go praise the Lord

Last point

Now the below commentary I believe addresses much of this pretty well, although I'm not in total agreement with David.

http://www.blbclassi...31&topic=Romans

to which you responded

Okay so I am not sure what argument of mine you are trying to address with that commentary.

If you agree with most of David's commentary then surely we are not very far off in our theology.

I believe the above points make the case that the former prophets and OT people of God are also included in Christ's Body (a.k.a "The Church") so perhaps we may even now agree.

In Christ, Pat

Edited August 8, 2014 by Macs Son

[Salty]

 

The Israel of God refers to Jewish believers in Jesus. It is differentiating Jewish people who do not believe in Jesus and Jewish people who do believe in Jesus. Jewish believers (God's Israel) and Gentile believers are one in Jesus. So, to me it is clear you do not really understand the position you are trying to discredit, as you continually mis-state the belief.

 

C.R. Stam was a hyper-dispensationalist. Just as some people who believe in Covenental theology are hyper-Calvinists. Using an extreme to discredit others, is not a good argument.

 

 

Galatians 6

14 But God forbid that I should glory , save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

 

Apostle Paul was speaking that to Gentiles there equally as to believing Israelites. Below he was speaking specifically to believing Gentiles.

 

Eph.2

11 Wherefore remember , that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

 

How is it that you didn't know God's Israel is a commonwealth?

[Salty]

 

How can it be missed? Christian brethren who believe God's Israel is separate from Christ's Church has been one of the reoccurring themes on this forum. It's mostly a Dispensationalist view among some believers on Christ, so it's not an isolated idea; it's just another one of those doctrines of men. Check out C.R. Stam and the movement he created, taking up where John Darby left off.

 

So anything anyone labels that doesn't fit your view is considered a "doctrine of man"? Bit of a cop-out I think.

Jews don't become Gentiles. Gentiles don't become Jews. People remain as they were when they became Christians.

1 Cor. 7:17-24

Live as You Are Called

¹⁷ Only let each person lead the life^[c] that the Lord has assigned to him, and to which God has called him. This is my rule in all the churches. ¹⁸ Was anyone at the time of his call already circumcised? Let him not seek to remove the marks of circumcision. Was anyone at the time of his call uncircumcised? Let him not seek circumcision. ¹⁹ For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God. ²⁰ Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called. ²¹ Were you a bondservantwhen called? Do not be concerned about it. (But if you can gain your freedom, avail yourself of the opportunity.) ²² For he who was called in the Lord as a bondservant is a freedman of the Lord. Likewise he who was free when called is a bondservant of Christ. ²³ You were bought with a price; do not become bondservantsof men. ²⁴ So, brothers,in whatever condition each was called, there let him remain with God.

 

The Church is not seperate. A marriage is not seperate when discussing a husband or a wife. Both are part of the marriage. Just so Jews and Gentiles both make up the Church. Yet a man doesn't become a woman when he gets married. Neither does a Jew become a Gentile when born again. Nor does a Gentile become a Jew when born again.

Paul clearly distinguishes 3 groups: Jews, Gentiles, and the Curch

1 Cor. 10:32

³² Give no offense to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God,

 

 

or perhaps I missed something?

 

God bless,

GE

 

 

Darby's Dispensationalism isn't a doctrine of men? Didn't know that. Strange that doctrine wasn't among the early 1st - 2nd century Church fathers.

 

So you don't believe what Apostle Paul taught about it...

 

Rom.2

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly ; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly ; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

Paul laid down there the principle of a spiritual Jew, not a flesh Jew, being the marker with those in Christ Jesus. It goes with what he said in Rom.9 that those in the Promise are counted for the seed, and that applies to Gentile believers on Christ also.

[Qnts2]

 

 

The Israel of God refers to Jewish believers in Jesus. It is differentiating Jewish people who do not believe in Jesus and Jewish people who do believe in Jesus. Jewish believers (God's Israel) and Gentile believers are one in Jesus. So, to me it is clear you do not really understand the position you are trying to discredit, as you continually mis-state the belief.

 

C.R. Stam was a hyper-dispensationalist. Just as some people who believe in Covenental theology are hyper-Calvinists. Using an extreme to discredit others, is not a good argument.

 

 

Galatians 6

14 But God forbid that I should glory , save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

 

Apostle Paul was speaking that to Gentiles there equally as to believing Israelites. Below he was speaking specifically to believing Gentiles.

 

Eph.2

11 Wherefore remember , that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

 

How is it that you didn't know God's Israel is a commonwealth?

 

 

The Galatians passage has already been explained. Paul is wishing peace to the Gentiles who understand not to be circumcized as the Judaizers want, and Paul is wishing peace to Jewish believers (Israel of God). Why do some have so much trouble understanding that Paul did talk to Jewish believers also.

 

Yes, Gentiles are brought near to the commonwealth of Israel. That does not mean Gentiles become Israel. What is the commonwealth of Israel? God. Jesus.

[Salty]

 

 

 

The Israel of God refers to Jewish believers in Jesus. It is differentiating Jewish people who do not believe in Jesus and Jewish people who do believe in Jesus. Jewish believers (God's Israel) and Gentile believers are one in Jesus. So, to me it is clear you do not really understand the position you are trying to discredit, as you continually mis-state the belief.

 

C.R. Stam was a hyper-dispensationalist. Just as some people who believe in Covenental theology are hyper-Calvinists. Using an extreme to discredit others, is not a good argument.

 

 

Galatians 6

14 But God forbid that I should glory , save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

 

Apostle Paul was speaking that to Gentiles there equally as to believing Israelites. Below he was speaking specifically to believing Gentiles.

 

Eph.2

11 Wherefore remember , that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

 

How is it that you didn't know God's Israel is a commonwealth?

 

 

The Galatians passage has already been explained. Paul is wishing peace to the Gentiles who understand not to be circumcized as the Judaizers want, and Paul is wishing peace to Jewish believers (Israel of God). Why do some have so much trouble understanding that Paul did talk to Jewish believers also.

 

Yes, Gentiles are brought near to the commonwealth of Israel. That does not mean Gentiles become Israel. What is the commonwealth of Israel? God. Jesus.

 

 

The specific Ephesians Scripture I quoted is about Gentiles that have believed on Christ, and by that have come "nigh" to the promises and covenants to Israel with Paul declaring those promises and covenants as "the commonwealth of Israel".

 

But it's quite neat how you just completely steered all around that.

[Guest shiloh357]

I disagree Shiloh - you are ignoring a plethora of Scripture that tells that the Church is the Body of Christ. Now what makes us part of the Lord's Body is the Holy Spirit of God by whom the prophets prophesied and foretold of Christ's coming - preparing His Way. Now these are the also part of the Lord's Body as well - else they would not be in the Kingdom as the Lord stated they were; His comment being the Gentile Church would join these.We are only in Christ by the Holy Spirit if one does not have the Holy Spirit you are simply not His.

 

No where in the Scriptures are the OT saints ever included in the Body of Christ.  It is a NT metaphor that Paul employs when he illustrates the unified diversity of believers such as when he discusses the spiritual gifts.    

 

 

Romans 8:9

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Now OT Prophets prophesied by the Holy Spirit so it logically follows that they are His (in Christ & in the Body)

 

 

Well, no.  It doesn’t follow that they were in Christ’s body.  Romans 8:9 is talking about an aspect of our relationship with God that the OT saints did not enjoy.  The OT prophets prophesied by the power of the Holy Spirit, yes.   But they were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit in the same way we are.  They were moved upon by the Holy Spirit.  There were individual people who were indwelt by the Spirit in order to be empowered for specific tasks in the OT, but that was a temporary condition that only applied to fulfilling a specific task.  They were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit due to a saving relationship with God.  They were not new creations in Christ.  So trying to use this verse to mean that OT prophets were part of the Body of Christ really doesn’t fly.

 

 

 

1Corinthians 12:28

And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

 

 

Mac, that is really weak.  He is not talking about OT prophets.  The office of prophet in the NT is not the same office as that of the OT prophet.   God has anointed prophets and those with the gift of prophecy in the NT economy.  Paul does not have Isaiah or Jeremiah in mind.

 

 

Now Christ is the sure head of the Body. He is the Bridegroom and the Church is His Bride as Paul says:

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.

....

Ephesians 5:28-32 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." [This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

But you have failed to make the case that the Church, the Body of Christ is an OT entity.   

You fail to address the simple fact that Israel and Church are represented in a manner that makes it impossible for the Church and Israel to be the same entity.  Israel belongs to the OT economy.  The Church belongs to the NT economy.  The Bible never spiritualizes Israel in the New Testament.  The Bible's description of Israel is always pertaining to an earthly Kingdom.  The blessings promised to Israel are always connected with a land, and physical nation, a physical throne (throne of David).  The throne of David, every time it is mentioned is always an earthly throne.

 

 The Church, however, is a heavenly people.  Our blessings are spiritual, we are part of an eternal Kingdom that is not of this world.  The Church, unlike Israel, possesses a regenerate membership.   Membership in the nation of Israel is based on circumcision as a sign of that covenant.   Membership in the Church is based on a transformational, saving relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.  

 

 Jesus' role as Messiah is an earthly role, not a redemptive role.  His relationship with Israel as their King/Messiah is fulfilled on earth.  But the Church's relationship with the Lord is spiritual and heavenly.    Israel is temporary.  Israel will not exist into eternity.   The Church is eternal.The way the Bible describes Israel simply doesn't resemble the church at all.  The Church and Israel could not be more different really.   Trying to make the Church and Israel one and the same is theologically untenable.

 

 

 

 

Colossians 1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

He continues .....

Colossians 1:24-26

I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.

Lest we make the error that time dictates the hand of God's plan. He is simply not subservient to time, either before and after, concerning "the Church". The author of Hebrews straightens us out on this point. (i.e. Please note the allusion to Abraham and the stars which I put in my last post. The Church encompasses all the sons of Abraham - spiritually born)

Hebrews 11:8-13

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise;for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

 

Commentary Jamieson, Fausset & Brown on Hebrews 11 said

13-16. Summary of the characteristic excellencies of the patriarchs' faith

died in faith--died as believers, waiting for, not actually seeing as yet their good things promised to them. They were true to this principle of faith even unto, and especially in, their dying hour (compare Hbr 11:20 ).

These all--beginning with "Abraham" ( Hbr 11:8 ), to whom the promises were made ( Gal 3:16 ), and who is alluded to in the end of Hbr 11:13 and in Hbr 11:15 [bENGEL and ALFORD]. But the "ALL" can hardly but include Abel, Enoch, and Noah. Now as these did not receive the promise of entering literal Canaan, some other promise made in the first ages, and often repeated, must be that meant, namely, the promise of a coming Redeemer made to Adam, namely, "the seed of the woman shall bruise the serpent's head." Thus the promises cannot have been merely temporal, for Abel and Enoch mentioned here received no temporal promise [ARCHBISHOP MAGEE]. This promise of eternal redemption is the inner essence of the promises made to Abraham ( Gal 3:16 ).

not having received--It was this that constituted their "faith." If they had "received" THE THING PROMISED (so "the promises" here mean: the plural is used because of the frequent renewal of the promise to the patriarchs: Hbr 11:17 says he did receive the promises, but not the thing promised), it would have been sight, not faith.

seen them afar off-- ( Jhn 8:56 ). Christ, as the Word, was preached to the Old Testament believers, and so became the seed of life to their souls, as He is to ours.

Hence they too both before and after belong to Christ's body and are hence, "the Church".

Father Abraham had many sons, many sons had Father Abraham, I am one of them and so are you - So let's go praise the Lord

 

 

No, it is not the case that those redeemed OT saints are members of the NT Church.  You are overstating what the text in Hebrews is saying.   It was possible to be saved by grace through faith in the coming Messiah in the OT.   But that doesn’t mean that OT were members of the Church.

The Church, Paul said was a mystery.  That is why the OT prophets never speak of a Church age.   The OT goes straight from the resurrection of Jesus into the Messianic Kingdom.   The Church was not revealed to the OT prophets.  It wasn’t revealed until the apostles of the NT were shown that revelation by God.

 

 

Pat Exhibit #E said

Now the below commentary I believe addresses much of this pretty well, although I'm not in total agreement with David.

http://www.blbclassi...31&topic=Romans

to which you responded

Shiloh said

Okay so I am not sure what argument of mine you are trying to address with that commentary.

If you agree with most of David's commentary then surely we are not very far off in our theology.

I believe the above points make the case that the former prophets and OT people of God are also included in Christ's Body (a.k.a "The Church") so perhaps we may even now agree.

 

If you are using that to make the case that OT saints are part of the Church, then we are light years apart because I believe the Bible.  And there is no way you can make the Bible say Israel or the OT are part of the Body of Christ.   I reject your assertion as it is based on faulty exegesis of Scripture.   You are trying to twist and contort Scripture to fit what you believe.  You are letting your theology drive your interpretation.

[Macs Son]

I disagree Shiloh - you are ignoring a plethora of Scripture that tells that the Church is the Body of Christ. Now what makes us part of the Lord's Body is the Holy Spirit of God by whom the prophets prophesied and foretold of Christ's coming - preparing His Way. Now these are the also part of the Lord's Body as well - else they would not be in the Kingdom as the Lord stated they were; His comment being the Gentile Church would join these.We are only in Christ by the Holy Spirit if one does not have the Holy Spirit you are simply not His.

 

No where in the Scriptures are the OT saints ever included in the Body of Christ.  It is a NT metaphor that Paul employs when he illustrates the unified diversity of believers such as when he discusses the spiritual gifts.    

 

 

Romans 8:9

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Now OT Prophets prophesied by the Holy Spirit so it logically follows that they are His (in Christ & in the Body)

 

 

Well, no.  It doesn’t follow that they were in Christ’s body.  Romans 8:9 is talking about an aspect of our relationship with God that the OT saints did not enjoy.  The OT prophets prophesied by the power of the Holy Spirit, yes.   But they were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit in the same way we are.  They were moved upon by the Holy Spirit.  There were individual people who were indwelt by the Spirit in order to be empowered for specific tasks in the OT, but that was a temporary condition that only applied to fulfilling a specific task.  They were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit due to a saving relationship with God.  They were not new creations in Christ.  So trying to use this verse to mean that OT prophets were part of the Body of Christ really doesn’t fly.

 

 

 

1Corinthians 12:28

And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

 

 

Mac, that is really weak.  He is not talking about OT prophets.  The office of prophet in the NT is not the same office as that of the OT prophet.   God has anointed prophets and those with the gift of prophecy in the NT economy.  Paul does not have Isaiah or Jeremiah in mind.

 

 

Now Christ is the sure head of the Body. He is the Bridegroom and the Church is His Bride as Paul says:

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.

....

Ephesians 5:28-32 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." [This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

But you have failed to make the case that the Church, the Body of Christ is an OT entity.   

You fail to address the simple fact that Israel and Church are represented in a manner that makes it impossible for the Church and Israel to be the same entity.  Israel belongs to the OT economy.  The Church belongs to the NT economy.  The Bible never spiritualizes Israel in the New Testament.  The Bible's description of Israel is always pertaining to an earthly Kingdom.  The blessings promised to Israel are always connected with a land, and physical nation, a physical throne (throne of David).  The throne of David, every time it is mentioned is always an earthly throne.

 

 The Church, however, is a heavenly people.  Our blessings are spiritual, we are part of an eternal Kingdom that is not of this world.  The Church, unlike Israel, possesses a regenerate membership.   Membership in the nation of Israel is based on circumcision as a sign of that covenant.   Membership in the Church is based on a transformational, saving relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.  

 

 Jesus' role as Messiah is an earthly role, not a redemptive role.  His relationship with Israel as their King/Messiah is fulfilled on earth.  But the Church's relationship with the Lord is spiritual and heavenly.    Israel is temporary.  Israel will not exist into eternity.   The Church is eternal.The way the Bible describes Israel simply doesn't resemble the church at all.  The Church and Israel could not be more different really.   Trying to make the Church and Israel one and the same is theologically untenable.

 

 

 

 

Colossians 1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

He continues .....

Colossians 1:24-26

I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.

Lest we make the error that time dictates the hand of God's plan. He is simply not subservient to time, either before and after, concerning "the Church". The author of Hebrews straightens us out on this point. (i.e. Please note the allusion to Abraham and the stars which I put in my last post. The Church encompasses all the sons of Abraham - spiritually born)

Hebrews 11:8-13

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise;for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

 

Commentary Jamieson, Fausset & Brown on Hebrews 11 said

13-16. Summary of the characteristic excellencies of the patriarchs' faith

died in faith--died as believers, waiting for, not actually seeing as yet their good things promised to them. They were true to this principle of faith even unto, and especially in, their dying hour (compare Hbr 11:20 ).

These all--beginning with "Abraham" ( Hbr 11:8 ), to whom the promises were made ( Gal 3:16 ), and who is alluded to in the end of Hbr 11:13 and in Hbr 11:15 [bENGEL and ALFORD]. But the "ALL" can hardly but include Abel, Enoch, and Noah. Now as these did not receive the promise of entering literal Canaan, some other promise made in the first ages, and often repeated, must be that meant, namely, the promise of a coming Redeemer made to Adam, namely, "the seed of the woman shall bruise the serpent's head." Thus the promises cannot have been merely temporal, for Abel and Enoch mentioned here received no temporal promise [ARCHBISHOP MAGEE]. This promise of eternal redemption is the inner essence of the promises made to Abraham ( Gal 3:16 ).

not having received--It was this that constituted their "faith." If they had "received" THE THING PROMISED (so "the promises" here mean: the plural is used because of the frequent renewal of the promise to the patriarchs: Hbr 11:17 says he did receive the promises, but not the thing promised), it would have been sight, not faith.

seen them afar off-- ( Jhn 8:56 ). Christ, as the Word, was preached to the Old Testament believers, and so became the seed of life to their souls, as He is to ours.

Hence they too both before and after belong to Christ's body and are hence, "the Church".

Father Abraham had many sons, many sons had Father Abraham, I am one of them and so are you - So let's go praise the Lord

 

 

No, it is not the case that those redeemed OT saints are members of the NT Church.  You are overstating what the text in Hebrews is saying.   It was possible to be saved by grace through faith in the coming Messiah in the OT.   But that doesn’t mean that OT were members of the Church.

The Church, Paul said was a mystery.  That is why the OT prophets never speak of a Church age.   The OT goes straight from the resurrection of Jesus into the Messianic Kingdom.   The Church was not revealed to the OT prophets.  It wasn’t revealed until the apostles of the NT were shown that revelation by God.

 

 

Pat Exhibit #E said

Now the below commentary I believe addresses much of this pretty well, although I'm not in total agreement with David.

http://www.blbclassi...31&topic=Romans

to which you responded

Shiloh said

Okay so I am not sure what argument of mine you are trying to address with that commentary.

If you agree with most of David's commentary then surely we are not very far off in our theology.

I believe the above points make the case that the former prophets and OT people of God are also included in Christ's Body (a.k.a "The Church") so perhaps we may even now agree.

 

If you are using that to make the case that OT saints are part of the Church, then we are light years apart because I believe the Bible.  And there is no way you can make the Bible say Israel or the OT are part of the Body of Christ.   I reject your assertion as it is based on faulty exegesis of Scripture.   You are trying to twist and contort Scripture to fit what you believe.  You are letting your theology drive your interpretation.

So you don't believe Abraham and Moses are in the Body of Christ (i.e. the Church?)

Gotta run - done packing.

May the Lord bless, Pat

[Guest shiloh357]

So you don't believe Abraham and Moses are in the Body of Christ (i.e. the Church?)

 

None of the OT saints are in the Church.