Ezra Posted February 22, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 22, 2015 There are seven trumpets and seven vials,but only seven angels,no more. This only means that each angel has a trumpet in one hand, and a vial in the other. It's only a probability that the same seven angels with the seven trumpets are given the vials also, but it is not a necessity (countless angels). No correspondence between trumpet and vial judgements. Here's what we see (Rev 8:1-9:21; Rev 15:1-16:21): Trumpet 1 - hail and fire mingled with blood Trumpet 2 - a burning fiery mountain Trumpet 3 - a burning fiery star Trumpet 4 - darkening of sun, moon, and stars Trumpet 5 - demonic locusts Trumpet 6 - demonic horsemen and horses Trumpet 7 - the heavenly Temple, lightning, voices, thunderings, earthquake Vial 1 - an injurious sore on worshippers of the Beast and his image Vial 2 - sea turned to blood Vial 3 - rivers and fountains turned to blood Vial 4 - intense scorching heat from the sun Vial 5 -- intense darkness Vial 6 - Euphrates dried up Vial 7 - unprecedented earthquake and hail, lightning, voices, thunderings, earthquake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted February 22, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 22, 2015 There are seven trumpets and seven vials,but only seven angels,no more. This only means that each angel has a trumpet in one hand, and a vial in the other. It's only a probability that the same seven angels with the seven trumpets are given the vials also, but it is not a necessity (countless angels). No correspondence between trumpet and vial judgements. Here's what we see (Rev 8:1-9:21; Rev 15:1-16:21): Trumpet 1 - hail and fire mingled with blood Trumpet 2 - a burning fiery mountain Trumpet 3 - a burning fiery star Trumpet 4 - darkening of sun, moon, and stars Trumpet 5 - demonic locusts Trumpet 6 - demonic horsemen and horses Trumpet 7 - the heavenly Temple, lightning, voices, thunderings, earthquake Vial 1 - an injurious sore on worshippers of the Beast and his image Vial 2 - sea turned to blood Vial 3 - rivers and fountains turned to blood Vial 4 - intense scorching heat from the sun Vial 5 -- intense darkness Vial 6 - Euphrates dried up Vial 7 - unprecedented earthquake and hail, lightning, voices, thunderings, earthquake and the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. Revelation 15:6-7 And quite a strong probability at that. Seven angels that have the seven plagues are then given seven vials. Either its the same angels that have the trumpets or you're introducing seven new plagues. Care to elaborate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted February 22, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 22, 2015 100 yeah..... I got to be the hundredth poster in another thread. must be a complicated subject... Hey other one. Grats on yet another 100th post in a thread. I think you're in the lead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted February 22, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 22, 2015 It's only a probability that the same seven angels with the seven trumpets are given the vials also, but it is not a necessity (countless angels). And quite a strong probability at that. Seven angels that have the seven plagues are then given seven vials. Either its the same angels that have the trumpets or you're introducing seven new plagues. Care to elaborate? 1. When we look at Rev 5:11 there are millions of angels around the throne of God. 2. When we look at Rev 8:2 there are seven angels "which stood before God" and they receive the seven trumpets. 3. When we look at Rev 8:3 there is "another angel" with a golden censer. 4. When we look at Rev 14:6 there is "another angel" flying and proclaiming the Everlasting Gospel. Then "another angel" in v 8, "another angel" in v 9, and "another angel" in v 15. 5. When we look at Rev 15:1,6,7 there is "another sign" and seven angels with the seven last plagues = the seven vials [which do not correspond to the seven trumpet judgments] 6. When we look at Rev 18:1 we see "another angel" proclaiming the fall of Babylon. In view of this, there is absolutely no reason to limit the angels to just the seven shown in Rev 8:2. There are myriads of angels to choose from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted February 23, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 23, 2015 It's only a probability that the same seven angels with the seven trumpets are given the vials also, but it is not a necessity (countless angels). And quite a strong probability at that. Seven angels that have the seven plagues are then given seven vials. Either its the same angels that have the trumpets or you're introducing seven new plagues. Care to elaborate? 1. When we look at Rev 5:11 there are millions of angels around the throne of God. 2. When we look at Rev 8:2 there are seven angels "which stood before God" and they receive the seven trumpets. 3. When we look at Rev 8:3 there is "another angel" with a golden censer. 4. When we look at Rev 14:6 there is "another angel" flying and proclaiming the Everlasting Gospel. Then "another angel" in v 8, "another angel" in v 9, and "another angel" in v 15. 5. When we look at Rev 15:1,6,7 there is "another sign" and seven angels with the seven last plagues = the seven vials [which do not correspond to the seven trumpet judgments] 6. When we look at Rev 18:1 we see "another angel" proclaiming the fall of Babylon. In view of this, there is absolutely no reason to limit the angels to just the seven shown in Rev 8:2. There are myriads of angels to choose from. Hi Ezra, I agree that there are a whole bunch of angels. I never meant to give the impression that there are just seven angels. What I said was that the seven angels who are given the seven vials are the seven angels who already have the seven plagues. and the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. Revelation 15:6-7 The vials or bowls that are given out in Revelation 15 are given to the seven angels that already have the seven plagues. The term "the seven plagues" seems to be a reference to a definite, certain seven plagues. The only specific seven plagues that we know about are the trumpets that are given to the seven angels in Revelation 8. It's quite reasonable then to assume, based on that, that there are seven plague angels. Each one has a trumpet and a vial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted February 24, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 24, 2015 There are seven trumpets and seven vials,but only seven angels,no more. This only means that each angel has a trumpet in one hand, and a vial in the other. It's only a probability that the same seven angels with the seven trumpets are given the vials also, but it is not a necessity (countless angels). No correspondence between trumpet and vial judgements. Here's what we see (Rev 8:1-9:21; Rev 15:1-16:21): Trumpet 1 - hail and fire mingled with blood Trumpet 2 - a burning fiery mountain Trumpet 3 - a burning fiery star Trumpet 4 - darkening of sun, moon, and stars Trumpet 5 - demonic locusts Trumpet 6 - demonic horsemen and horses Trumpet 7 - the heavenly Temple, lightning, voices, thunderings, earthquake Vial 1 - an injurious sore on worshippers of the Beast and his image Vial 2 - sea turned to blood Vial 3 - rivers and fountains turned to blood Vial 4 - intense scorching heat from the sun Vial 5 -- intense darkness Vial 6 - Euphrates dried up Vial 7 - unprecedented earthquake and hail, lightning, voices, thunderings, earthquake Somehow, you forgot these striking similarities. 2nd Trumpet: 1/3 sea becomes blood 2nd Vial: all the sea becomes blood 3rd Trumpet: 1/3 of fresh water contaminated 3rd Vial: all fresh water contaminated 4th Trumpet: the sun was altered 4th Vial: the sun was altered 5th Trumpet: the air was darkened 5th Vial: the false prophet's kingdom becomes darkened 6th Trumpet: concerns the Euphrates 6th Vial: concerns the Euphrates 7th Trumpet: lightening, thunder, earthquake, hailstorm 7th Vial: lightening, thunder, earthquake, hailstorm I think the connection between the trumpets and vials is quite clear. I don't think they happen at the same time but there is no doubt that they are related. The first plague angel (trumpet / bowl) isn't quite as straightforward. I go into a if you're interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamL Posted February 24, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,125 Content Per Day: 1.48 Reputation: 2,556 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Share Posted February 24, 2015 (edited) It's only a probability that the same seven angels with the seven trumpets are given the vials also, but it is not a necessity (countless angels). No correspondence between trumpet and vial judgements. Here's what we see (Rev 8:1-9:21; Rev 15:1-16:21) ... Somehow, you forgot these striking similarities. 2nd Trumpet: 1/3 sea becomes blood 2nd Vial: all the sea becomes blood 3rd Trumpet: 1/3 of fresh water contaminated 3rd Vial: all fresh water contaminated 4th Trumpet: the sun was altered 4th Vial: the sun was altered 5th Trumpet: the air was darkened 5th Vial: the false prophet's kingdom becomes darkened 6th Trumpet: concerns the Euphrates 6th Vial: concerns the Euphrates 7th Trumpet: lightening, thunder, earthquake, hailstorm 7th Vial: lightening, thunder, earthquake, hailstorm I think the connection between the trumpets and vials is quite clear. I don't think they happen at the same time but there is no doubt that they are related. The first plague angel (trumpet / bowl) isn't quite as straightforward. I go into a if you're interested. Since this topic is also being discussed in my Rev. 7 string, here is what I just posted there: Regarding your continual unsubstantiated claim that there are only seven angels total, who blow the 7 trumpets while simultaneously pouring out the bowls (or 1st trumpet-then-1st bowl, 2nd trumpet-then-2nd bowl, as Last Daze says) -- let's go to the relevant scriptures: Rev. 8:2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets. 10:1 And I saw another mighty angel... 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying... 8 and another angel followed, saying... 9 then a third angel followed them... 15 and another angel came out of the sanctuary... 18 and another angel came out from the altar... 15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels [not, the seven angels] having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete. ...6 And out of the temple came the seven angels having the seven plagues, clothed in pure bright linen, and having their chests girded with golden bands. Now, there is nothing here whatsoever to show that these seven plague angels have any relationship to any of the previously mentioned angels, nor that they pour their bowls out simultaneously with the trumpets. Secondly, you have never replied to this problem with your theory that I posed to you in post #52: " Another problem with the theory that the Trumpets and Bowls are concurrent is the distinction between the 1st Bowl and the 5th Seal: Rev. 16:2 And the first [angel] went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image. At this time, the Kingdom of the Beast has clearly been established for some time. When does the Beast arise? Rev. 11:7 ...the Beast...ascends out of the Abyss... Rev. 17:8 The Beast...will ascend out of the Abyss... Rev. 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the Abyss... The Abyss is locked up until the 5th Trumpet is blown: the Beast cannot arise from it before then. Therefore, the 1st Bowl must take place after the 5th Trumpet is blown. " Obviously, then, the 1st Bowl cannot be poured out at, or right after, the 1st Trumpet is blown. Edited February 24, 2015 by WilliamL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted February 24, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 24, 2015 It's only a probability that the same seven angels with the seven trumpets are given the vials also, but it is not a necessity (countless angels). No correspondence between trumpet and vial judgements. Here's what we see (Rev 8:1-9:21; Rev 15:1-16:21) ... Somehow, you forgot these striking similarities. 2nd Trumpet: 1/3 sea becomes blood 2nd Vial: all the sea becomes blood 3rd Trumpet: 1/3 of fresh water contaminated 3rd Vial: all fresh water contaminated 4th Trumpet: the sun was altered 4th Vial: the sun was altered 5th Trumpet: the air was darkened 5th Vial: the false prophet's kingdom becomes darkened 6th Trumpet: concerns the Euphrates 6th Vial: concerns the Euphrates 7th Trumpet: lightening, thunder, earthquake, hailstorm 7th Vial: lightening, thunder, earthquake, hailstorm I think the connection between the trumpets and vials is quite clear. I don't think they happen at the same time but there is no doubt that they are related. The first plague angel (trumpet / bowl) isn't quite as straightforward. I go into a if you're interested. Since this topic is also being discussed in my Rev. 7 string, here is what I just posted there: Regarding your continual unsubstantiated claim that there are only seven angels total, who blow the 7 trumpets while simultaneously pouring out the bowls (or 1st trumpet-then-1st bowl, 2nd trumpet-then-2nd bowl, as Last Daze says) -- let's go to the relevant scriptures: Rev. 8:2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets. 10:1 And I saw another mighty angel... 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying... 8 and another angel followed, saying... 9 then a third angel followed them... 15 and another angel came out of the sanctuary... 18 and another angel came out from the altar... 15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels [not, the seven angels] having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete. ...6 And out of the temple came the seven angels having the seven plagues, clothed in pure bright linen, and having their chests girded with golden bands. Now, there is nothing here whatsoever to show that these seven plague angels have any relationship to any of the previously mentioned angels, nor that they pour their bowls out simultaneously with the trumpets. Secondly, you have never replied to this problem with your theory that I posed to you in post #52: " Another problem with the theory that the Trumpets and Bowls are concurrent is the distinction between the 1st Bowl and the 5th Seal: Rev. 16:2 And the first [angel] went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image. At this time, the Kingdom of the Beast has clearly been established for some time. When does the Beast arise? Rev. 11:7 ...the Beast...ascends out of the Abyss... Rev. 17:8 The Beast...will ascend out of the Abyss... Rev. 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the Abyss... The Abyss is locked up until the 5th Trumpet is blown: the Beast cannot arise from it before then. Therefore, the 1st Bowl must take place after the 5th Trumpet is blown. " Obviously, then, the 1st Bowl cannot be poured out at, or right after, the 1st Trumpet is blown. Okay, for the last time, out of sympathy for the horse. After these things I looked, and the temple of the tabernacle of testimony in heaven was opened, and the seven angels who had the seven plagues came out of the temple, clothed in linen, clean and bright, and girded around their chests with golden sashes. Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever. Revelation 15:5-7 No one is saying that these seven angels are the only seven angels anywhere always infinity. I'm not sure why you and Ezra are fixated on showing me that there are more angels. I know there are...probably millions, maybe even billions. That's not the point. What I'm pointing out is that the angels that are given the seven bowls already have the seven plagues. My question, which has not been answered, is, if the seven plagues that the angels already have are not the seven trumpets then what are they? Where do you find seven other plagues that these angels could possibly already have? I don't know how to say it any more plainly than that. Secondly, you have never replied to this problem with your theory that I posed to you in post #52: " Another problem with the theory that the Trumpets and Bowls are concurrent is the distinction between the 1st Bowl and the 5th Seal: I assume you mean the 5th trumpet. You're trying to link the seven headed, ten horned beast from the abyss to the fifth trumpet solely on the mention of the word "abyss"??? I find that to be quite unreliable especially in light of what is described at the fifth trumpet. Then the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from heaven which had fallen to the earth; and the key of the bottomless pit was given to him. He opened the bottomless pit, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit. Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power. Revelation 9:1-3 The only thing that's mentioned as coming out at that time are locusts. I see no mention of a seven headed, ten horned beast or anything even remotely close to that. I don't see this as a problem with how I understand the trumpets and bowls at all. Honestly, I can't even see how you made that connection. The Abyss is locked up until the 5th Trumpet is blown: the Beast cannot arise from it before then. Therefore, the 1st Bowl must take place after the 5th Trumpet is blown. " This is pure conjecture. Just because the abyss is opened at the fifth trumpet does not mean that it is locked until then. Do you have anything, anything at all to support that claim? Otherwise, I just can't begin to take that notion seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamL Posted February 24, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,125 Content Per Day: 1.48 Reputation: 2,556 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Okay, for the last time, out of sympathy for the horse. After these things I looked, and the temple of the tabernacle of testimony in heaven was opened, and the seven angels who had the seven plagues came out of the temple, clothed in linen, clean and bright, and girded around their chests with golden sashes. Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever. Revelation 15:5-7 ... What I'm pointing out is that the angels that are given the seven bowls already have the seven plagues. My question, which has not been answered, is, if the seven plagues that the angels already have are not the seven trumpets then what are they? Where do you find seven other plagues that these angels could possibly already have? I don't know how to say it any more plainly than that. William's answer: Very simple: the seven last plagues are the final wrath of God, which are poured out of the vials/bowls which contain them, the wrath of God, just as it says in the Scriptures: Rev. 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. Rev. 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. Secondly, you have never replied to this problem with your theory that I posed to you in post #52: " Another problem with the theory that the Trumpets and Bowls are concurrent is the distinction between the 1st Bowl and the 5th Trumpet: You're trying to link the seven headed, ten horned beast from the abyss to the fifth trumpet solely on the mention of the word "abyss"??? I find that to be quite unreliable especially in light of what is described at the fifth trumpet. Then the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from heaven which had fallen to the earth; and the key of the bottomless pit was given to him. He opened the bottomless pit, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit. Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power. Revelation 9:1-3 The only thing that's mentioned as coming out at that time are locusts. I see no mention of a seven headed, ten horned beast or anything even remotely close to that. I don't see this as a problem with how I understand the trumpets and bowls at all. Honestly, I can't even see how you made that connection. William: I make that connection here: Rev. 9:11 And they [the locusts] had a king over them, which is the angel of the Abyss, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. What? You think this fallen, locked up angelic king remains in the Abyss, while his locusts only escape??? The King of the Abyss/Destroyer is the one who becomes the Beast when he "ascends out of the Abyss." The Abyss is locked up until the 5th Trumpet is blown: the Beast cannot arise from it before then. Therefore, the 1st Bowl must take place after the 5th Trumpet is blown. " This is pure conjecture. Just because the abyss is opened at the fifth trumpet does not mean that it is locked until then. Do you have anything, anything at all to support that claim? Otherwise, I just can't begin to take that notion seriously. Of course it was locked until then: why do you think it needed to be opened with a key??? Because it was locked with a lock, obviously. Rev. 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the Abyss. 2 And he opened the Abyss... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted February 25, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 25, 2015 Okay, for the last time, out of sympathy for the horse. After these things I looked, and the temple of the tabernacle of testimony in heaven was opened, and the seven angels who had the seven plagues came out of the temple, clothed in linen, clean and bright, and girded around their chests with golden sashes. Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever. Revelation 15:5-7 ... What I'm pointing out is that the angels that are given the seven bowls already have the seven plagues. My question, which has not been answered, is, if the seven plagues that the angels already have are not the seven trumpets then what are they? Where do you find seven other plagues that these angels could possibly already have? I don't know how to say it any more plainly than that. William's answer: Very simple: the seven last plagues are the final wrath of God, which are poured out of the vials/bowls which contain them, the wrath of God, just as it says in the Scriptures: Rev. 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. Rev. 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. Secondly, you have never replied to this problem with your theory that I posed to you in post #52: " Another problem with the theory that the Trumpets and Bowls are concurrent is the distinction between the 1st Bowl and the 5th Trumpet: You're trying to link the seven headed, ten horned beast from the abyss to the fifth trumpet solely on the mention of the word "abyss"??? I find that to be quite unreliable especially in light of what is described at the fifth trumpet. Then the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from heaven which had fallen to the earth; and the key of the bottomless pit was given to him. He opened the bottomless pit, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit. Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power. Revelation 9:1-3 The only thing that's mentioned as coming out at that time are locusts. I see no mention of a seven headed, ten horned beast or anything even remotely close to that. I don't see this as a problem with how I understand the trumpets and bowls at all. Honestly, I can't even see how you made that connection. William: I make that connection here: Rev. 9:11 And they [the locusts] had a king over them, which is the angel of the Abyss, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. What? You think this fallen, locked up angelic king remains in the Abyss, while his locusts only escape??? The King of the Abyss/Destroyer is the one who becomes the Beast when he "ascends out of the Abyss." The Abyss is locked up until the 5th Trumpet is blown: the Beast cannot arise from it before then. Therefore, the 1st Bowl must take place after the 5th Trumpet is blown. " This is pure conjecture. Just because the abyss is opened at the fifth trumpet does not mean that it is locked until then. Do you have anything, anything at all to support that claim? Otherwise, I just can't begin to take that notion seriously. Of course it was locked until then: why do you think it needed to be opened with a key??? Because it was locked with a lock, obviously. Rev. 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the Abyss. 2 And he opened the Abyss... Have a nice day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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