THE SEVEN TRUMPETS,AND THE SEVEN VIALS.

[Last Daze]

 

Okay, for the last time, out of sympathy for the horse.

 

After these things I looked, and the temple of the tabernacle of testimony in heaven was opened, and the seven angels who had the seven plagues came out of the temple, clothed in linen, clean and bright, and girded around their chests with golden sashes. Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever.  Revelation 15:5-7

 

... What I'm pointing out is that the angels that are given the seven bowls already have the seven plagues.  My question, which has not been answered, is, if the seven plagues that the angels already have are not the seven trumpets then what are they?  Where do you find seven other plagues that these angels could possibly already have?  I don't know how to say it any more plainly than that.

 

William's answer: Very simple: the seven last plagues are the final wrath of God, which are poured out of the vials/bowls which contain them, the wrath of God, just as it says in the Scriptures:

 

Rev. 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Rev. 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

 

 

 

You're either dodging the question or you're saying that the seven angels who had the seven bowls are given seven bowls which doesn't make any sense to me.

[Sister]

The only thing that's mentioned as coming out at that time are locusts.  I see no mention of a seven headed, ten horned beast or anything even remotely close to that.  I don't see this as a problem with how I understand the trumpets and bowls at all.  Honestly, I can't even see how you made that connection.

 

Last Daze you made a very good point.

 

Before the 6th seal even begins we have the rider on the pale horse, who is the false prophet and his beast with him.

 

Revelation 6:7   And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

Revelation 6:8   And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

 

It goes like this in order;

1st seal - false religion using Christ's name to deceive....the rider started around the 1400's

2nd seal - war .....(1st & 2nd world war)....the rider starts and joins the 1st rider.  Wars don't stop, but continue...little fires everywhere.

3rd seal - famine......the rider starts and runs with the first two riders.  Famine is a result of war,  but this famine is planned, because the food & water supply is controlled by the elites.  They say who gets to grow and buy.  They have already taken over the food industry by squeezing out the small independent farmers so food supply is mainly in their hands.  They will cause a global colapse, which will put the prices up in food. 

This major famine is yet to come but on a  a global scale.....the USA, Australia, England..France...Germany....everywhere, all caused by the 10 kings, who are working in the shadows, crashing the system to make way for a new one.

 

and behold,

4th seal...the 10 kings bring out their leader, the false prophet who they have been scheming for and training him to take on his role.  This rider brings hell and death with him.  This is him.  Right here.

 

5th seal....The Mark of the Beast is issued and he is killing the saints.

 

6th seal....7 angels begin to sound, wrath starts.  Revenge time on Babylon.  The prayers of the saints are now going to be answered.

 

7th seal.....the coming.

 

William: I make that connection here:

 

Rev. 9:11 And they [the locusts] had a king over them, which is the angel of the Abyss, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

 

What? You think this fallen, locked up angelic king remains in the Abyss, while his locusts only escape??? The King of the Abyss/Destroyer is the one who becomes the Beast when he "ascends out of the Abyss."

 

 

William

 

Satan has never been locked up.  He has been roaming free since the beginning.  The earth is where he was cast, and the earth is his playground.  Some of his angels were locked up, who went in to the daughters of men during the days of Genesis.  They are the ones who have been bound all this time because they were not allowed to mingle with humans sexually.  They have been put away so they don't contaminate again, and reserved in chains for the end time....to be let loose....They will come out after the Mark is issued, not before, and will come out on the 5th trumpet, and the some more come out on the 6th trumpet.  Both groups have different jobs to do.

 

The false prophet is a man and he comes out of the earth.  He is earth-born.  A man.  He will be born of a woman, and he doesn't worship the God his "fathers" served.  He is flesh.

What comes out of the Abyss is Satan's plan.  It's his idea.  His plan is not heavenly, but comes out of the bottomless pit, hell so to speak.  It's a wicked plan and he uses the beast (10 kings) and the false prophet to do the job for him.  It's Satan's idea that comes out of the bottomless pit, because that's where Satan belongs, and that's where he's going.

 

Satan's name is not Abbadon, or Appollyon.  This is something new?  Satan has angels under him.  These angels who are locked up have a king over them.  This king is not Satan, but one of his chiefs. 

[WilliamL]

 

 

Okay, for the last time, out of sympathy for the horse.

 

After these things I looked, and the temple of the tabernacle of testimony in heaven was opened, and the seven angels who had the seven plagues came out of the temple, clothed in linen, clean and bright, and girded around their chests with golden sashes. Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever.  Revelation 15:5-7

 

... What I'm pointing out is that the angels that are given the seven bowls already have the seven plagues.  My question, which has not been answered, is, if the seven plagues that the angels already have are not the seven trumpets then what are they?  Where do you find seven other plagues that these angels could possibly already have?  I don't know how to say it any more plainly than that.

 

William's answer: Very simple: the seven last plagues are the final wrath of God, which are poured out of the vials/bowls which contain them, the wrath of God, just as it says in the Scriptures:

 

Rev. 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Rev. 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

 

 

You're either dodging the question or you're saying that the seven angels who had the seven bowls are given seven bowls which doesn't make any sense to me.

 

Read what it says: the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God; ...pour out the vials of the wrath of God...

 

Now, since the Wrath of God is filled up [Greek root teleo: to complete, finish] with the seven plagues, how could there be more Wrath of God left in the Trumpets?? Or in seven other bowls?? There simply could not: the seven last plagues are poured out of the 7 Bowls.

[WilliamL]

Satan's name is not Abbadon, or Appollyon.  This is something new?  Satan has angels under him.  These angels who are locked up have a king over them.  This king is not Satan, but one of his chiefs. 

 

Quite so. His name is Azazel, the one spoken of in the Book of Enoch, and in Leviticus 10.

 

Jude 6 The angels who did not keep their place of authority, but left their habitation, [God] has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day.

2 Peter 2:4 …God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and delivered them into chains of darkness [or, pits of gloom], to be reserved for judgment…

 

Enoch 10:15, 9 “ind them for 70 generations underneath the earth, even to the day of judgment…and in the great day of judgment let [them] be cast into the fire.”

Enoch 9:5-6 “You have seen what Azazel has done, how he has taught every species of iniquity upon Earth… Semhazai has also taught sorcery…” 10:12 “All the earth has been corrupted by the effects of the teaching of Azazel. To him therefore ascribe the whole crime.”

 

Mosaic Law and Jewish Lore about Azazel

Leviticus 16 is Mosaic Law for Yom Kippur/the Day of Atonement, the holiest day of the year in the Israelite religious calendar. In verses 8, 10, and 26, the word usually translated in English as “scapegoat” is Azazel: the passages in Hebrew literally read “to/for Azazel.” “[A]ll the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions concerning all their sins, put…on the head of the goat” sent to/for Azazel. Lev. 16:21 – see Enoch 10:12 above.

“[T]he goat designated for Azazel was given to the kohen [priest] assigned to lead it away into the wilderness. And when this kohen came to the designated ravine…he pushed the goat into the ravine.” The Rabbinical Assembly, Machzor for Rosh Hashanh and Yom Kippur, 611. This act at the ravine, which is not included in the instructions of Leviticus 16, clearly was a custom that was added to commemorate Azazel’s being cast into the Abyss at the time of the flood.

 

Enoch 53:5-6 …the host of Azazel…became ministers of Satan, and seduced those who dwell upon earth.

Rev. 13:2 The Dragon [will give] him [the Beast] his power, his throne, and great authority.

Edited February 27, 2015 by WilliamL

[Last Daze]

 

 

 

Okay, for the last time, out of sympathy for the horse.

 

After these things I looked, and the temple of the tabernacle of testimony in heaven was opened, and the seven angels who had the seven plagues came out of the temple, clothed in linen, clean and bright, and girded around their chests with golden sashes. Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever.  Revelation 15:5-7

 

... What I'm pointing out is that the angels that are given the seven bowls already have the seven plagues.  My question, which has not been answered, is, if the seven plagues that the angels already have are not the seven trumpets then what are they?  Where do you find seven other plagues that these angels could possibly already have?  I don't know how to say it any more plainly than that.

 

William's answer: Very simple: the seven last plagues are the final wrath of God, which are poured out of the vials/bowls which contain them, the wrath of God, just as it says in the Scriptures:

 

Rev. 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Rev. 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

 

 

You're either dodging the question or you're saying that the seven angels who had the seven bowls are given seven bowls which doesn't make any sense to me.

 

Read what it says: the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God; ...pour out the vials of the wrath of God...

 

Now, since the Wrath of God is filled up [Greek root teleo: to complete, finish] with the seven plagues, how could there be more Wrath of God left in the Trumpets?? Or in seven other bowls?? There simply could not: the seven last plagues are poured out of the 7 Bowls.

 

 

I read it.  It certainly adds credibility to what I'm saying.  Thanks for pointing that out.  I changed the color of "filled" and "complete" for association purposes.

 

Now, if you would read what it says, and put it together, you can see clearly that there are seven plague angels.  Each one has a trumpet and a bowl.  When they sound their trumpets, their plague begins.  Later, when their bowl is poured out, the plague is brought to its fullness because in them is filled up the wrath of God.  This is obvious in some of the plagues where they start off as 1/3 damage at the trumpet then 3/3 damage at the bowl.  See the fullness aspect there?  I'll spell it out just in case you don't.

 

2nd trumpet - 1/3 of the sea turned to blood - this is the second plague starting

2nd bowl - 3/3 of the sea turned to blood - this is the second plague brought to its fullness or completion

 

3rd trumpet - 1/3 of the fresh water contaminated - this is the third plague starting

3rd bowl - 3/3 of the fresh water contaminated - this is the third plague brought to its fullness or completion

 

Everything harmonizes perfectly.  No tap-dancing.  No cognitive dissonance. 

 

It answers the question you've not yet been able to: If the seven plagues that the angels already have are not the seven trumpets then what are they?  Where do you find seven other plagues that these angels could possibly already have?

 

The answer is...they are the trumpets.  The seven plague angel having the seven trumpets are given seven bowls.

[WilliamL]

Now, if you would read what it says, and put it together, you can see clearly that there are seven plague angels.  Each one has a trumpet and a bowl. 

 

William says: YOU SAY each one has a trumpet, but the text of Rev. 15-16 doesn't mention any trumpet at all. Pretty glaring omission by John? Nope, trumpets aren't mentioned, because they have already been blown and are done with.

 

 

When they sound their trumpets, their plague begins.  Later, when their bowl is poured out, the plague is brought to its fullness because in them is filled up the wrath of God.  This is obvious in some of the plagues where they start off as 1/3 damage at the trumpet then 3/3 damage at the bowl.  See the fullness aspect there?  I'll spell it out just in case you don't.

 

2nd trumpet - 1/3 of the sea turned to blood - this is the second plague starting

2nd bowl - 3/3 of the sea turned to blood - this is the second plague brought to its fullness or completion

 

3rd trumpet - 1/3 of the fresh water contaminated - this is the third plague starting

3rd bowl - 3/3 of the fresh water contaminated - this is the third plague brought to its fullness or completion

 

William: wonderful example of selective/deceptive paraphrasing of verses, leaving out the inconvenient parts. Such as, the 3rd Trumpet pollutes with wormwood, and the 3rd Bowl pollutes with blood, two different things entirely.

 

It answers the question you've not yet been able to: If the seven plagues that the angels already have are not the seven trumpets then what are they?  Where do you find seven other plagues that these angels could possibly already have?

 

The answer is...they are the trumpets.  The seven plague angel having the seven trumpets are given seven bowls.

 

Which continues to be your unproven assumption, to be sure.

 

The problem you have seems to come from 15:7:

 

Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever.

 

"Full of:" this translation is derived from the Greek root gemo; which primary meaning is "to swell out." The verb is in the present participle form, so the phrase literally should read, "being/becoming swollen of (with/by) the wrath of God." The Bowls given to the seven angels with the seven plagues are "being filled up/swollen" [present tense; meaning that they do not come already swollen, they become swollen] when they are presented to the seven angels. What are they swollen with? The seven plagues originally given to the seven angels.

 

This interpretation is perfectly consistent with the Hebrew concept of clothing and tabernacling something from higher worlds, to allow them to manifest in lower ones. [For example: our souls, which descend from a heavenly realm, are enclothed/tabernacled in our bodies of flesh.] Remember, these angels originate from the heavenly sanctuary of God, that is, the highest level of the heavens. But the plagues they are given must operate on the lowest level of creation, our own material world. In order to do so, they must have some form of embodiment that is able to manifest within our realm. This is why they are given the containment of the Bowls, and fill/swell them up. These spiritual plagues are contained by the Bowls first, then are able to be poured out and be manifest on the lower level.

 

This meaning is all perfectly consistent with the text, without having to add presumptions to the text, i.e., that non-mentioned trumpets are involved.

[Last Daze]

 

Now, if you would read what it says, and put it together, you can see clearly that there are seven plague angels.  Each one has a trumpet and a bowl. 

 

William says: YOU SAY each one has a trumpet, but the text of Rev. 15-16 doesn't mention any trumpet at all. Pretty glaring omission by John? Nope, trumpets aren't mentioned, because they have already been blown and are done with.

 

 

When they sound their trumpets, their plague begins.  Later, when their bowl is poured out, the plague is brought to its fullness because in them is filled up the wrath of God.  This is obvious in some of the plagues where they start off as 1/3 damage at the trumpet then 3/3 damage at the bowl.  See the fullness aspect there?  I'll spell it out just in case you don't.

 

2nd trumpet - 1/3 of the sea turned to blood - this is the second plague starting

2nd bowl - 3/3 of the sea turned to blood - this is the second plague brought to its fullness or completion

 

3rd trumpet - 1/3 of the fresh water contaminated - this is the third plague starting

3rd bowl - 3/3 of the fresh water contaminated - this is the third plague brought to its fullness or completion

 

William: wonderful example of selective/deceptive paraphrasing of verses, leaving out the inconvenient parts. Such as, the 3rd Trumpet pollutes with wormwood, and the 3rd Bowl pollutes with blood, two different things entirely.

 

It answers the question you've not yet been able to: If the seven plagues that the angels already have are not the seven trumpets then what are they?  Where do you find seven other plagues that these angels could possibly already have?

 

The answer is...they are the trumpets.  The seven plague angel having the seven trumpets are given seven bowls.

 

Which continues to be your unproven assumption, to be sure.

 

The problem you have seems to come from 15:7:

 

Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever.

 

"Full of:" this translation is derived from the Greek root gemo; which primary meaning is "to swell out." The verb is in the present participle form, so the phrase literally should read, "being/becoming swollen of (with/by) the wrath of God." The Bowls given to the seven angels with the seven plagues are "being filled up/swollen" [present tense; meaning that they do not come already swollen, they become swollen] when they are presented to the seven angels. What are they swollen with? The seven plagues originally given to the seven angels.

 

This interpretation is perfectly consistent with the Hebrew concept of clothing and tabernacling something from higher worlds, to allow them to manifest in lower ones. [For example: our souls, which descend from a heavenly realm, are enclothed/tabernacled in our bodies of flesh.] Remember, these angels originate from the heavenly sanctuary of God, that is, the highest level of the heavens. But the plagues they are given must operate on the lowest level of creation, our own material world. In order to do so, they must have some form of embodiment that is able to manifest within our realm. This is why they are given the containment of the Bowls, and fill/swell them up. These spiritual plagues are contained by the Bowls first, then are able to be poured out and be manifest on the lower level.

 

This meaning is all perfectly consistent with the text, without having to add presumptions to the text, i.e., that non-mentioned trumpets are involved.

 

 

I think this exchange has run it's course.  Thanks for your thoughts.