The Unutterable Prayers of the Holy Spirit

[Sevenseas]

Not everyone has the faith to believe that the Holy Spirit gives spiritual gifts to the followers of Christ because none of us can follow Him without the

indwelling power of God's Holy Spirit.

 

However, to assume that everyone who DOES have faith in the ability of God to continue to bless His own with the power to live FOR Him, is wrong, 

shows a dire lack of comprehension on just how God goes about doing HIS business through earthen vessles.

 

Sometimes people seem to think that life in God is nothing more then being able to argue your own point of view to the exclusion of anyone else

and doing so, by taking verses out of context, wrapping them up in limited human understanding and then telling everyone who objects that

only they have the truth.

 

That, is not the teaching presented in the gospels nor is it the teaching we receive from the rest of the NT.

[Hobbes]

Not everyone has the faith to believe that the Holy Spirit gives spiritual gifts to the followers of Christ because none of us can follow Him without the

indwelling power of God's Holy Spirit.

 

However, to assume that everyone who DOES have faith in the ability of God to continue to bless His own with the power to live FOR Him, is wrong, 

shows a dire lack of comprehension on just how God goes about doing HIS business through earthen vessles.

 

Sometimes people seem to think that life in God is nothing more then being able to argue your own point of view to the exclusion of anyone else

and doing so, by taking verses out of context, wrapping them up in limited human understanding and then telling everyone who objects that

only they have the truth.

 

That, is not the teaching presented in the gospels nor is it the teaching we receive from the rest of the NT.

 

Not every saved believer is applying faith in Jesus Christ correctly.

 

Some believers should be applying faith in Jesus Christ at that throne of grace to answer prayers when they pray to the Father in His name.

 

Some believers need to know that the words, the gifts, and the fruits of the Spirit are from Jesus Christ in being our Good Shepherd as He is the author & finisher of our faith for us to be the work of His hands.

 

The Holy Spirit does not answer prayers nor are saved believers to be asking the things of the Spirit from the Holy Spirit when He takes them from Jesus Christ to give them to usas all that the Father has is now the Son's.

 

John 16:¹³ Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. ¹⁴ He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. ¹⁵ All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

 

Philippians 1:⁶ Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:....¹¹ Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

 

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, ² Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

Jesus has already told us what the Holy Spirit will do and His word is not maybe or possibly, but the Holy Spirit will do it and therefore there is no asking the Holy Spirit.  This is also where believers are to apply faith in Jesus Christ as well and not behave as if the Holy Spirit will not listen to the Good Shepherd for relaying something to us or not giving us what Jesus would have us to have for us as manifested by the Spirit.  That is why His words regarding the role of the Holy Spirit is a promise from the Father and we can trust Jesus at His word, and why scripture & the indweling Holy Ghost would have us behave in this recomnciled relationship with God thru the Bridegroom by keeping our eyes on the Son for He is our first love and He will be coming soon to receive the ready & abiding bride of Christ as kept by Him by His grace & by His help as we live by faith in the Son of God.. 

Edited August 22, 2014 by Hobbes

[Sevenseas]

And you?  I know I did not say the Holy Spirit answers prayers.  I simply stated that not everyone can accept by faith what God has made

available to us through His Spirit.  It is not at all as complicated as your interpretation.

 

You are actually minimizing the work of the Holy Spirit

 

Perhaps some believers do need to know that the gifts are through the Holy Spirit as God Himself dispenses them...that is, He decides who gets what

 

It is indeed the Spirit of God who moves through believers....the same One that Jesus told the disciples to wait for in Jerusalem. 

 

I Corinthians 12: 28-31 & 14: 12-13...it is God and not us who choose the gift.  However, as indicated by Paul we are most certainly allowed

to ask for and even 'covet' gifts...Paul recognizes that apart from the Holy Spirit we can not know the will of God.  

 

Many people will study scripture but their interpreation is off because they do not understand that it is not head knowledge they are looking into.

 

 

 

Some believers need to know that the words, the gifts, and the fruits of the Spirit are from Jesus Christ in being our Good Shepherd as He is the author & finisher of our faith for us to be the work of His hands.

 

 

There is no question that the Holy Spirit does not act apart from the will of God or without the knowledge of His Son.  However, there does appear to be some questionning on your part

as to just how these gifts function.  

 

The Holy Spirit is a PERSON.  He is not a force or an it nor is He somehow diminished in any way from God.

[Hobbes]

Brother Sevenseas,

 

I know that you did not say anything about the Holy Spirit answering prayers, but then again, I did not say that you did.  I was giving an example about how other believers can apply faith in Jesus Christ in the wrong way.

 

I am not minimizing the work of the Holy Spirit if I am not denying He is the One giving the words of Christ, the gifts and the fruits , but I am pointing a little higher to the One the Spirit is taking those "things" from :  the Son of God; the author & finisher of our faith.

 

We are to ask for gifts, but Paul instructed to seek the gift of prophesy over all spiritual gifts;  and he began to show why by comparing the gift of prophesy against the gift of tongues by showing why the gift of prophesy was the superior gift because it stands alone in the church whereas the gift of tongues is not for it is not a stand alone gift for it needs to be followed by interpretation.

 

There is an apostasy running amok that calls believers into seeking another baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues and yet no one understands that 1 Corinthians 12:13 reproves such notions in relations to the gifts as we have all been made to drink of the One Spirit that we all have been baptized into the body of Christ by Jesus Christ at our salvation.

 

Not once did Paul instruct any believer to seek a specific spiritual gift like tongues by seeking another baptism with the Holy Ghost but as paramount as wayward believers are making that call today to saved believers, you would think Paul would have plainly taught such a thing, but did not.  Tongues were never meant to serve as a sign for believers to know that they had received the Holy Ghost.  That is hardly receiving the promise of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ:  Hebrews 11:1-2,6 Galatians 3:14,26-28

 

So any one that claims to speak in tongues and yet testify of another baptism with the Holy Ghost is the reason WHY I would question the function of the supernatural tongue that comes with no interpretation because God's gift of tongues was plainly stated by Paul that it was of other men's lips to speak unto the people.  1 Corinthians 14:21

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Hobbes,,,,,

   I'm really not sure if you are confused or it is just the way you write?You said one thing about promises & comittment,& churches & then I comment & you pretty much repeat what I say as if I never said it in the first place?Do you ever discuss things or just preach things,,,,,,I don't mean that disrespectfully but it seems you don't converse with anyone,,,,,,,you just talk............

      You  took a verse of Scripture  from John.....referrinng to Jesus not fully committing Himself to them at that time becauseTHEY WERE NOT YET COMMITTED TO HIM,can you see that,the second part?Although now you seem to be agreeing with me about making a committment.....I don't know ,you go back &  forth and are all over the pace,,,,,Like Sevenseas,I too think you are taking these verses out of context ....you are throwing Hebrews in the mix ,which is way off base....??????

      Hobbes,you  have to focus on one subject at a time in order for anyone to engage in a discussion,,,although i still think you are not looking for discussion,I do not know what you are doing?

      Honestly,I I think you could confuse anyone & that is actually dangerous.....you keep switching around .You began by speaking about the utterances of the Spirit & then jump the KJV is the only reliable Word of God & off to being left behind in a pre-trib rapture,,,,,,,you have about 5 or 6 tics going on& an awful lot of opinions....which is fine but it is not fine to "teach",,,,,it is not even what you say but how you say it Hobbes........you can have your interpretation but you can't tell people they are going to be "left -behind" or fall away if they don't read the KJV.........many young Christians ome here & perhapsc iht is easier for them to read a NKJV or a NLT or NIV.......& you really should try not to take a verses from thjis SCripture & that Scripture to mix it all together to say whatt you want it to say

       My only hope is that the new or Baby Christian not get confused as many of the things you are "teaching"can be a Salvational issue for someone                             Love,Kwik

[Sevenseas]

Brother Sevenseas,

 

I know that you did not say anything about the Holy Spirit answering prayers, but then again, I did not say that you did.  I was giving an example about how other believers can apply faith in Jesus Christ in the wrong way.

 

Perhaps it might be helpful if you were to address the culprits who do so...I am not sure where the other belivers are, but I have not read of anyone on these boards who might benefit from that particular

correction

 

I am not minimizing the work of the Holy Spirit if I am not denying He is the One giving the words of Christ, the gifts and the fruits , but I am pointing a little higher to the One the Spirit is taking those "things" from :  the Son of God; the author & finisher of our faith.

 

Well, you seem to be teaching rather then asking questions and I do not agree with your teaching.  I see you are 'using' scripture but I disagree with the way you pull verses out of context and try to make

them say something they do not say

 

We are to ask for gifts, but Paul instructed to seek the gift of prophesy over all spiritual gifts;  and he began to show why by comparing the gift of prophesy against the gift of tongues by showing why the gift of prophesy was the superior gift because it stands alone in the church whereas the gift of tongues is not for it is not a stand alone gift for it needs to be followed by interpretation.

 

And yet Paul said he prayed in tongues more than anyone, so how about that?  What do you know!  But you stated you do not believe one should pray in tongues...I guess Paul didn't get the memo

 

There is an apostasy running amok that calls believers into seeking another baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues and yet no one understands that 1 Corinthians 12:13 reproves such notions in relations to the gifts as we have all been made to drink of the One Spirit that we all have been baptized into the body of Christ by Jesus Christ at our salvation.

 

There are plenty of apostasies and incorrect teaching and false prophecies.  There always were.  Right through the entire Bible and since Jesus warned repeatedly against deception, I tend to take that warning

seriously...well any warning, but since you like to contrast everything against what Jesus said, there you go!

 

No one understands, right?  Does that include you too?  Or are you teaching us all again?  I Cor. 12:13 does not even address tongues...you just really do have your own way of interpreting.....

 

Not once did Paul instruct any believer to seek a specific spiritual gift like tongues by seeking another baptism with the Holy Ghost but as paramount as wayward believers are making that call today to saved believers, you would think Paul would have plainly taught such a thing, but did not.  Tongues were never meant to serve as a sign for believers to know that they had received the Holy Ghost.  That is hardly receiving the promise of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ:  Hebrews 11:1-2,6 Galatians 3:14,26-28

 

And yet we do have a separate baptism described in the book of Acts a number of times...and then there is the rather standout occasion when the Holy Spirit first descended upon those who were already

saved...Jesus told His followers to wait for the Holy Spirit....it is quite simple.  You do not understand what you are trying to teach the rest of us and that is why we do not agree.

 

I pray in tongues and I never thought that meant anything other then being filled as Jesus promised.  I was saved at least 10 years before I spoke in tongues and already water

baptized.  My experience is biblical, can be backed up with scripture and no amount of anyone refuting what scripture plainly states is going to alter what those who follow Jesus practice.

 

So any one that claims to speak in tongues and yet testify of another baptism with the Holy Ghost is the reason WHY I would question the function of the supernatural tongue that comes with no interpretation because God's gift of tongues was plainly stated by Paul that it was of other men's lips to speak unto the people.  1 Corinthians 14:21

 

Yeah well, that has been your testimony from the start so.....I don't know why you would question what you have decided is the truth...but I can tell you that many people here will certainly question

your interpretation and teaching

[OneLight]

Hobbes, The Holy Spirit is God, or do you not believe in the Trinity? Why does God need to tell God what He is interceding about? Jesus was speaking about men needing to go through Him to get to the father, meaning salvation, not praying, though He is our intercessor also.

Thank you, OneLight, that is what I was about to say as well.

When people do not have the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit to recognize the things of the Spirit even in scripture, having hardened their hearts, it is useless to argue with them. Sometimes they interpret scripture in light of their bad experiences or their prejudices.

 

Or sometimes, believers are reading something that was translated wrong in their modern Bibles to see why the KJV has it right because it lines up with other scriptural truths being testified in the Bible.  They may never had taken that matter to the Lord Jesus Christ in prayer for confirmation as to which Bible has given us the correct message in keeping with the truths in His words, and whethor other discernment are necessary for any errant practises or errant teachings that has been derived from that errant Bible.

Sorry, but your "my bible is better than your bible" argument does not hold water. That argument usually means the user cannot rebut the argument presented.

[a-seeker]

Romans 8:²⁶ Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.  KJV

 

The translation "with groanings which cannot be uttered" was derived from the Greek text of alaletos which means "from a - a 1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of lalew - laleo 2980; unspeakable:--unutterable, which cannot be uttered."

 

http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/STRGRK2.htm#S215

 

That means the Holy Spirit cannot utter His own intercessions in making them known. So the obvious question then is how can the intercessions of the Spirit's are given?  The next verse explains how.

 

Romans 8:²⁷ And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

 

Another Person is knowing the mind of the Spirit is how the intercessions of the Spirit's are made known to the Father.  The identity to this Person is seen by Him searching our hearts.

 

Hebrews 4:¹² For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. ¹³ Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. ¹⁴ Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. ¹⁵ For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. ¹⁶ Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

 

 

Why is it in verse 27 that he is the One that intercedes for the saints in according to the will of God?

 

Hebrews 7:²⁵ Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

 

1 Timothy 2:⁵ For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

 

There is another reason why the Holy Spirit cannot give His own prayers to the Father.

 

John 14:⁶ Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me....¹³ And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. ¹⁴ If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

 

Jesus is the only way anything regarding us can approach God the Father by prayer for He is the One at that throne of grace since the Son of God is our Passover Lamb to approach God the Father by.  The Son gives our intercessions and the intercessions of the Spirit's concerning us so that when the Father says "Yes" to any of His intercessions for us, the Son answers our prayers as it is the will of God for the Father to be glorified in the Son for answered prayers.  That is why we are to give God the Father thanks in Jesus's name.

 

So the Holy Spirit has His own intercessions, but He cannot give them Himself which is why "itself" was used in the KJV.

 

The Holy Spirit is limited by speaking what He hears.

 

John 16:¹³ Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

 

Therefore God's gift of tongues which comes with no interpretation is not of Him at all to be used as a form of a prayer language.

 

Paul made that known for clarity sake in case believers were reading his words wrong.

 

1 Corinthians 14:²⁰ Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. ²¹ In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

 

So believers are not to believe every spirit but test them as there are familiar spirits in the world that will try to cut inbetween us and the Son in prayer.  Better to know what you had prayed for to give the Father genuine and heartfelt thanks in Jesus's name than only think you are giving Him thanks.  It is more to His glory to receive your thanks than babbling nonsense.

 

Isaiah 8:¹⁹ And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

 

1 Thessalonians 5:In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.²¹ Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. ²² Abstain from all appearance of evil. ²³ And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. ²⁴ Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. ²⁵ Brethren, pray for us.

 

You are the one that should give thanks just as you are the one that is to pray. That is the will of God.

 

1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world....⁵ They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. ⁶ We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

 

2 Timothy 2:¹⁶ But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness....²⁴ And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, ²⁵ In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; ²⁶ And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

 

Hey, 

 

I didn't read beyond much of this 

 

That means the Holy Spirit cannot utter His own intercessions in making them known. So the obvious question then is how can the intercessions of the Spirit's are given?  The next verse explains how.

 

 

 

That is nonsense and not at all how the Greek reads.

 

Ὡσαύτως δὲ καὶ τὸ πνεῦμα συναντιλαμβάνεται τῇ ἀσθενείᾳ ἡμῶν· τὸ γὰρ τί προσευξώμεθα καθὸ δεῖ οὐκ οἴδαμεν, ἀλλὰ αὐτὸ τὸ πνεῦμα ὑπερεντυγχάνει στεναγμοῖς ἀλαλήτοις·

 

The meaning here is that the Holy Spirit can pray for us when human language fails us; He takes over when we fail.  That is the obvious meaning implied by the first clause "in our weakness".  NOte the first word "likewise".  this points back to the previous verse: 

 

εἰ δὲ ὃ οὐ βλέπομεν ἐλπίζομεν, δι᾽ ὑπομονῆς ἀπεκδεχόμεθα.

 

But if what we do not see we hope for, by perseverance we eagerly await.  We lack the words; but the spirit intercedes here.

 

Everything else in your post seems to me to be creating complexities where they do not exist.

 

clb

Edited August 25, 2014 by ConnorLiamBrown

[Fez]

Hobbes, Sevenseas is a sister, not a brother.  

 

And I agree with the posters who are more or less saying you are creating complexities, and applying to much thought to things that are simple in reality. Take the time to listen, instead of answering first brother.

[Sevenseas]

Hobbes, Sevenseas is a sister, not a brother.  

 

And I agree with the posters who are more or less saying you are creating complexities, and applying to much thought to things that are simple in reality. Take the time to listen, instead of answering first brother.

 

 

LOL!  yeah I saw that.....but figured I had already said enough...thanks though