The Indwelling Holy Spirit VS Other Spirits

[Avodah]

Pariah,

You ASSUME I have not prayed about this and you ASSUME I have not prayed for discernment.

I will agree to disagree with some of things in this discussion. I feel the need to defend my faith and my relationship with the Lord, and that to me is not what I want to feel when having a discussion with other christians. We are not "all" right and we are not "all" wrong.

So...I will just say, Bless you in the name of the Lord!

Your fellow sister in the faith,

Kimberley

[Guest Pariah]

Pariah,

You ASSUME I have not prayed about this and you ASSUME I have not prayed for discernment.

I will agree to disagree with some of things in this discussion.

Edited January 21, 2005 by Pariah

[Sola Scriptora]

I have been out of town for a week.

Pariah said:

Oh really? You reading inbetween the lines and adding to God's words to justify the worship of these visiting spirits in their manifestations that only glorifies them when they visit..... calling them the Holy Ghost..... the Bible clearly teaches this?

You have a problem Pariah--you argue in a circle. Just because you ASSERT something over and over doesn't make it so. Your wild assertions, like the above are nothing more than your own imaginations. You don't know what you are talking about.

As for me "ignoring" your "explanations of Acts 2,8,10, and 19--I didn't "ignore" any "explanations" of them, I simply ignored your attempt to explain away the obvious in those passages--that believers, who al;ready had the Holy Spirit because they were believers, had to still RECEIVE the Holy Spirit, and when they did, there were manifestations.

That there are two experiences shown in Acts is obvious to any HONEST and DISCERNING person who doesn't come to the Scriptures with unBiblical presuppositions.

As for John Calvin--I asked you whether you wre a cessassionist or no. You said you were, so I told you WHO and when your man-made doctrine came from. You will find no one in church history teaching cessassionsim prior to him. So your view is false and a recent innovation.

Again, the verses you cite have not proved your viewpoint. They actually have NOTHING TO DO WITH what I believe. I believe the Bible--ALL OF IT. You don't. God is not bound to your man-made theology and shackles. You are following another spirit in rejecting the Holy Spirit and His work in this Dispensation, and you are following another spirit by ascribing to the Holy Spirit and His works to evil spirits. You are well on your way the blasphemy of the Spirit. That's where man-made doctrine led the Pharisees of Jesus' day, and where your man-made doctrine leads you today--blasphemy.

Edited January 21, 2005 by Sola Scriptora

[Guest Pariah]

I have been out of town for a week. 

Pariah said:

Oh really? You reading inbetween the lines and adding to God's words to justify the worship of these visiting spirits in their manifestations that only glorifies them when they visit..... calling them the Holy Ghost..... the Bible clearly teaches this?

You have a problem Pariah--you argue in a circle. Just because you ASSERT something over and over doesn't make it so. Your wild assertions, like the above are nothing more than your own imaginations. You don't know what you are talking about.

As for me "ignoring" your "explanations of Acts 2,8,10, and 19--I didn't "ignore" any "explanations" of them, I simply ignored your attempt to explain away the obvious in those passages--that believers, who al;ready had the Holy Spirit because they were believers, had to still RECEIVE the Holy Spirit, and when they did, there were manifestations.

That there are two experiences shown in Acts is obvious to any HONEST and DISCERNING person who doesn't come to the Scriptures with unBiblical presuppositions.

As for John Calvin--I asked you whether you wre a cessassionist or no. You said you were, so I told you WHO and when your man-made doctrine came from. You will find no one in church history teaching cessassionsim prior to him. So your view is false and a recent innovation.

Again, the verses you cite have not proved your viewpoint. They actually have NOTHING TO DO WITH what I believe. I believe the Bible--ALL OF IT. You don't. God is not bound to your man-made theology and shackles. You are following another spirit in rejecting the Holy Spirit and His work in this Dispensation, and you are following another spirit by ascribing to the Holy Spirit and His works to evil spirits. You are well on your way the blasphemy of the Spirit. That's where man-made doctrine led the Pharisees of Jesus' day, and where your man-made doctrine leads you today--blasphemy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sola,

You cannot hear me so I am withdrawing from you in this discussion as I should from this forum altogether. Apparently I stand alone. No one cares to correct you or the others, because they just don't.

Jeremiah 50

6My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace

7All that found them have devoured them: and their adversaries said, We offend not, because they have sinned against the LORD, the habitation of justice, even the LORD, the hope of their fathers.

I gave my warnings by the grace of God.. and those warnings were His.

I dust my feet as a testimony against you and this forum.

Mark 10

13And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.

14And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

15Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Good bye, brother.

Pariah

[Botz]

Pariah.

You cannot hear me so I am withdrawing from you in this discussion as I should from this forum altogether. Apparently I stand alone. No one cares to correct you or the others, because they just don't.

Presumably you have been in touch with George who runs this site or some of the leadership here that serve us all.

It is a pity you are not staying around a bit longer to defend your position on a few things or to elaborate a little...you may well stand alone on what you are declaring...and there may be a good reason you are standing alone.

Personally some of the issues you have raised are very pertinent and it is good that they are addressed...but I feel you could have displayed more unfeigned love than you have done...I guess you feel you are the spokesman for the so-called true Holy Spirit and have played your part. Botz.

[Avodah]

Amen Sola and Botz!!

Thank you for putting into words what I could not.

Blessings!!

[Sola Scriptora]

The sad thing is Pariah doesn't even know WHAT other posters may believe. He didn't even ask. I subscribe, as many different types of Charismatic believers do, to the AOG creedal statement as found on their website. It explains the doctrinal distinctives there. I am not bound to that Creed, but it is a good summary of a Pentecostal evangelical protestant-Reformation type of believe, well within the bounds of Scripture, and hardly to be assailed so illogically and irrationally as Pariah does. I'm still trying to figure out just what his probelm is.

I have been to Toronto and the Pensacola revival MANY TIMES. I "checked" things out.

The simple fact is that if you are a true believer, and a worshipper, you kknow God's Presence. And if you walk into a sanctuary and you feel a powerful presence of the Lord there BEFORE the service even starts, what else do you need to know??? When you see hundreds of people on the floors interceding, weeping and in prayer prioir to the service, many of them teenagers, what else do you need to know? When you hear a holiness/repentance message preached with great anointing, and see many flee to Jesus Christ in absolute surrender to Him night after night, what else do you need to know???

[Botz]

I think that with everything that goes on in the Church these days it is good to take stock of where we are headed collectively and personally...and to be aware and on our guard that we are not suckered in by false doctrines,lying signs and wonders,showmanship or anything else that would seek to bring confusion and uncertainty to the hearts of Believers.

In this respect I think Pariah felt he was doing many people a service by pointing out what he believes are some of the pitfalls that many of us have fallen in to.

This would include:

1. Receiving a spirit that masquerades as the Holy Spirit.

2. Being continually filled with the Holy Spirit...(when once you have believed you are then sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise...and never need filling again)

3. Worshipping the Holy Spirit.

I disagreed with many of his findings...but I understand where he is coming from and his deep concern for what he feels is ripping the Body of Christ apart.

I think Christians should be aware that there are many charlatans that hide as ministers of the Gospel within the ranks of the Church...and it is probably easiest for them to function within the Charasmatic section than anywhere else.

Such people often have an over emphasis on tithing and preach that obtaining wealth or even financial betterment is directly proportional to the amount of cash that you sow into the kingdom...they teach rewards in the here and now....and the thrust is you will not be blessed either financially or spiritually if you don't tithe.

Often they are inordinately wealthy...most from preaching the Gospel...draw your own conclusions.

Other things that seem to follow some of these leaders is that they produce gold dust or feathers or something else and word gets around that so and so is coming and the focus is more on seeing if the glitter appears than what is being preached...one preacher who got many people believing in angel feathers was recently exposed on video...they had them sewn into their cuffs and the back of their shirt....why? G-d knows! Does it mean they are all fakes? I don't know but I know when the alarm bells go off.

Another area is false teachings and false use of the gifts...many so called leaders with big ministries have been caught out regarding these things...false prophecies...false claims of healing...that seem so real at the time under the studio lights on TV...I mentioned once having know a minister who tried to cast the spirit of batman out of somebody...when I had stopped laughing I realized that we need to discern what is of G-d and what isn't.

Our safety net is the word of G-d,the leading of the Holy Spirit and the body of Christ...we should never be afraid to discuss hard or controversial issues in a spirit of love and humility.

[Sola Scriptora]

This is true, but i see as far more destructive the leavening process of the whole Seeker Sensitive-Willow Creek Purpose Driven teachings. They have literally destoyed thousands of churches and ministires. Not by shutting the doors, but by changing them into a carnal, circus, uncrucified-driven way of "doing ministry". When you read the autobiographies of men like Wesley, Finney, Nash, Andrew Murray, etc, you soon realize why today's mega-church experts can fill pews, yet God is not there, and sin runs wild and is rampant. There is no similarity in doctrine or approach between Rick Warren vs. John Wesley, Bill Hybles vs. Charles Finney. Someone is seriously in error and misleading others.

[Botz]

I don't know anything about the ministers you mentioned Sola...or what they teach...sometimes there are good men who have just got a blind spot...I imagine if Apollos had not been corrected....

Acts 18:26 And he (Apollos) began to speak boldly in the synagogue. And Aquila and Priscilla heard him, and they took him and expounded to him the way of God more perfectly.

...he might have gone on to be a very powerful preacher and persuasive man who loved the L-rd but with a few off-centre teachings...he was also gracious and had a teachable spirit and listened to those that instructed him in the truth.

Accountability is so necessary for Leaders who carry such a burden and weight of responsibility for the Church...perhaps many would have ministries more consistant with the Bible and the love of the L-rd if they did not appear to enjoy the praises of men so much...and were accountable for their teachings and their ministries as good and faithful servants.

In actual fact...much of what the L-rd is doing throughout the world is done quite apart from some of the farcical antics displayed in Western Churches...and his power and His might is evident in the most unlikely places and His ministers there will probably never have a TV camera pointed in their direction...many live totally dedicated frugal lives...sold out to their Saviour. G-d knows our hearts.