Do secular individuals exhibit faith?

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

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infinite regress....it's turtles all the way down.

 

 

"Infinite Regress"     How can it be an Infinite Regress when I just stopped @ THE ALMIGHTY GOD?

 

"Turtles" ----- Are you referring to "actual "Turtles" or "The Turtles" the Band?  

 

To limit confusion and wasting time, try this:  Whenever you "Label" something, try putting this right after it: "As Evidenced By"....

[Scintillic_Atom_Marriage]

Also: Steve. Can you please just cut out the ad honinem when it's by itself like that? I don't have a problem with rewriting something but when it doesn't cost you any effort or time to do something I'd be grateful if I didn't have too. Thank you.

 

 

Enoch: Saying that "Matter has always been" equals "The Universe is Eternal." Is a strawman.

 

 

Nope, it's not.

 

If he was saying "Matter has always been" but not Eternal...it's just been here since the Beginning of the Universe...then ok, I guess that's fair.  But where did the first matter come from....?

Don't know. We might find out someday. I believe there are some theories but they all seem fairly shaky to me and I don't really have the understanding to cover it.

 

It also doesn't matter. You'd need to demonstrate a God before you can honestly say that "God did it."

The universe could very well be eternal as the cosmos could encompass an inter-dimensional causal chain

 

 

No it can't....unless you take the Laws of Thermodynamics "Pillars of Science" to the Woodshed and beat them Senseless.

The laws of thermodynamics cover normal conditions. They kinda break down at extremely high heats and pressures and extremely low heats and pressures. There can be no moment of higher heat and pressure than a very small space that contains all of our current universe. (And the breakdown at extremely low heats and pressures exemption is why the universe is losing energy as it expands and the extremely high pressure, extremely high heat exemption is the basis behind the whole "Zero Point energy" thing. Which I'm fairly sure is fake but I've heard about experiments trying to generate +energy and so it deserves a very salty mention.)

 

And you're well outside "science" with "inter-dimensional" loops.  I can say with equal "Scientific Vigor" that there were 3 toed gnomes throwing pixie dust and de-mattered universes in a black hole behind the crab nebula.

Or an almighty anthropomorphic super-being?

 

To say that something existed before a "First Event" is nonsensical.

 

 

Factually and Logically Incorrect.  For Finite (Matter...or anything else) to exist....Infinite or Eternal MUST Exist.  SEE: Aristotle's: "Prime Mover"/Unmoved Mover".  There has to be an Un-Caused First Cause for there to be anything Finite.

Which could be the universe creating itself. We don't know yet and I certainly don't.

 

And I'm fairly certain that we don't have evidence to support there being anything before that.

 

 

Look in the mirror, are you Finite?  If Yes, there MUST be Infinite/Eternal (SEE: Above)

So what is the infinite/ eternal?

 

I will ask. If everything except God requires a cause. What makes God exempt from requiring a cause? And wouldn't God also be "a number of billions of years that I don't feel like looking up" old if time has only existed from the moment it created time?

 

A number of billions of years ago that I don't feel like looking up.

 

Begging The Question Fallacy.  You're again, well outside "science's" purview here.  Or, you can go ahead and Validate via the Scientific Method.....?

Nope. Begging the question is taking a conclusion as one of your premises. This is merely one of my premises as the age of the universe is evidently finite. It is one of your premises as well. If your talking about age... Also nope. I refuse to talk to you about your beliefs about experimental viability and/ or "historical science." (Needs more sarcastic quotes.) """""historical science."""""

 

I admit that it's hypocritical of me. Take it as a win if you want. I just can't bring myself to care.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

Where in scripture did it say a month was 30 days or a year 360 as you posted?

 

 

 

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In Scripture, GOD speaks to the Great Tribulation as a Time Period....the Last Half of Daniel's 70th Week or 3 1/2 Years as:

 

 

"Time and Times, and a Dividing of Time": Dan 7:25, Dan 12:7, Rev 12:14; "1260 Days": Rev 11:3, Rev 12:6 ; "42 Months": Rev 11:2, Rev 13:5.

 

 

So.....3.5 Years =  1260 Days or 42 Months or Times and Times and a Dividing of Time.

 

 

1260 days / 3.5 = 360 Day Years, Is GOD'S Calendar when relating to us.

 

 

There are about 15 Prominent Civilizations (That I'm not gonna look up now ) that also had 360 Day Years as their Standard.  It appears around 700 BC they started changing.  It also appears that it had something to do with "Mars" and near Pass-By's of the Earth....but that's a Whole other Story and could be connected to The Long Day of Joshua. 

[OakWood]

Yeah. OK. That was out of line.

 

Enoch: I apologize without reservation.

 

Enoch: Saying that "Matter has always been" equals "The Universe is Eternal." Is a strawman.

 

The universe could very well be eternal as the cosmos could encompass an inter-dimensional causal chain, looping back in on itself or there could be come causal dead zone with an intelligence residing in it (God) or something or something else that I don't know but near as we can tell matter and this universe made from it has been around for a finite time.

 

Matter, or the energetic components that make up matter, came into existence at the same point or as close to the same point that we cannot currently differentiate them as time. A number of billions of years ago that I don't feel like looking up. To say that something existed before a "First Event" is nonsensical. And I'm fairly certain that we don't have evidence to support there being anything before that.

 

What you say is vaguely possible, I guess... but it takes more faith to believe in that than it does to believe in God.

[Scintillic_Atom_Marriage]

 

Yeah. OK. That was out of line.

 

Enoch: I apologize without reservation.

 

Enoch: Saying that "Matter has always been" equals "The Universe is Eternal." Is a strawman.

 

The universe could very well be eternal as the cosmos could encompass an inter-dimensional causal chain, looping back in on itself or there could be come causal dead zone with an intelligence residing in it (God) or something or something else that I don't know but near as we can tell matter and this universe made from it has been around for a finite time.

 

Matter, or the energetic components that make up matter, came into existence at the same point or as close to the same point that we cannot currently differentiate them as time. A number of billions of years ago that I don't feel like looking up. To say that something existed before a "First Event" is nonsensical. And I'm fairly certain that we don't have evidence to support there being anything before that.

 

What you say is vaguely possible, I guess... but it takes more faith to believe in that than it does to believe in God.

 

I believe that an unconscious process may have given rise to a set of conditions that created the universe. I don't believe anything beyond a point that has not been demonstrated to be factually true and when asked about it I check to see if what I'm saying is accurate.

 

How does that take more faith than saying that, somehow a human-like all powerful mind, was fully functional and existing without apparent rhyme or reason, spoke the universe into existence, somehow, specifically for us as a species and me in particular because it loves us and me? While also being willing to torture us/ me forever should I do things it doesn't like?

[Scintillic_Atom_Marriage]

 

 

 

Where in scripture did it say a month was 30 days or a year 360 as you posted?

 

 

 

=================================================================================================================

 

In Scripture, GOD speaks to the Great Tribulation as a Time Period....the Last Half of Daniel's 70th Week or 3 1/2 Years as:

 

 

"Time and Times, and a Dividing of Time": Dan 7:25, Dan 12:7, Rev 12:14; "1260 Days": Rev 11:3, Rev 12:6 ; "42 Months": Rev 11:2, Rev 13:5.

 

 

So.....3.5 Years =  1260 Days or 42 Months or Times and Times and a Dividing of Time.

 

 

1260 days / 3.5 = 360 Day Years, Is GOD'S Calendar when relating to us.

 

 

There are about 15 Prominent Civilizations (That I'm not gonna look up now ) that also had 360 Day Years as their Standard.  It appears around 700 BC they started changing.  It also appears that it had something to do with "Mars" and near Pass-By's of the Earth....but that's a Whole other Story and could be connected to The Long Day of Joshua. 

 

But a year isn't just a timekeeping convention. (Months and the seven day week and all that are.) That three hundred and sixty five and a quarter days is how long the Earth takes to make a full orbit of the Sun. Similarly a day is how long it takes for the earth to rotate around it's axis.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

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The laws of thermodynamics cover normal conditions. They kinda break down at extremely high heats and pressures and extremely low heats and pressures.

 

 

As I said, you have to take the Laws of Thermodynamics to the Woodshed (as you just did).  That dog doesn't hunt here or anywhere.  They are "Scientific Laws" and in this case "Pillars of Science" for a reason....they don't Break Down!

 

Let me Illustrate where you're @ right now....

 

“If your theory is found to be against the second law of thermodynamics, I can give you no hope; there is nothing for [your theory] but to collapse in the deepest humiliation.” {Emphasis Mine}

[Arthur S. Eddington, The Nature of the Physical World (1930), p. 74.]

 

You're well outside "Science" Again

 

 

There can be no moment of higher heat and pressure than a very small space that contains all of our current universe.

 

 

Please show an Infinitely Dense Point Mass Singularity, even Mathematically:   D = M/V .....?

 

 

"Zero Point energy" thing. Which I'm fairly sure is fake

 

 

It's not, and is irrelevant to our current discussion.

 

 

Or an almighty anthropomorphic super-being?

 

 

Not OR, It has to be GOD.  You keep forgetting our foundation of the discussion.....

 

 

You only have 2 choices: Random Chance (Nature) or Intelligent Design (GOD). The Laws of Physics, Chemistry/Biochemistry, Information, and the Tenets of Specific Complexity, Irreducible Complexity, and Common Sense Rule Nature out...Laughingly so. If you summarily rule one of the choices out.... where does it leave you?

 

Based on the Law of Non-Contradiction--- 2 things that are contradictory can't exist @ the same time (or do you disagree?).  It's better stated as: either Randomness or Intelligent Design Created us and the Universe. This is not a False Dichotomy (Bifurcation Fallacy) because there is no THIRD CHOICE. Now if I summarily refute Randomness the choice MUST BE ID. YOU MAY THEN conjure thousands of possibilities under ID; however, it has ZERO to do with the tenets of first postulate.

 

 

Which could be the universe creating itself. We don't know yet and I certainly don't.

 

 

Ahhh sir, if the Universe created itself that would mean it existed prior to existence.  Which is Logical Absurdity.

 

"If I say “X creates X,” I presuppose the existence of X in order to account for the existence of X. To presuppose the existence of the universe to account for its existence is logically incoherent."

Dr. John Lennox (Professor Mathematics at Oxford University)

 

 

So what is the infinite/ eternal?

 

 

GOD

 

 

I will ask. If everything except God requires a cause. What makes God exempt from requiring a cause?

 

 

Well HE'S GOD.  Logic demands it.  If the CREATOR needed to be "created" he the couldn't then be the CREATOR, by definition.....since he was "created".

 

 

And wouldn't God also be "a number of billions of years that I don't feel like looking up" old if time has only existed from the moment it created time?

 

 

Nope.  Eternal = the Absence of Time.  HE is not bound by the Laws of HIS Creation.

 

 

Nope. Begging the question is taking a conclusion as one of your premises.

 

 

Which is what you just did...."A number of billions of years ago that I don't feel like looking up".  Assuming the very thing you're asserting. 

 

 

I refuse to talk to you about your beliefs about experimental viability and/ or "historical science." (Needs more sarcastic quotes.) """""historical science."""""

 

 

It's not my "beliefs" It's a fog a mirror fact.

 

And you can add all the sarcastic comments, flowers, colors, complaints, sugar, flour, chocolate syrup to it all you want...it' not gonna change anything.  Other than the fact, that you have No Argument and is the quintessential technique employed when there is No Argument.  Check Graham's Hierarchy of Argument Techniques for affirmation.

 

 

This is merely one of my premises as the age of the universe is evidently finite.

 

 

Finite doesn't Ipso Facto mean Billions of Years.  It's Non-Sequitur (Fallacy)

[Guest]

....a day is how long it takes for the earth to rotate around it's axis....

 

 

Exactly~!

 

And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

 

And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

 

And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,  And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

 

And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. Genesis 1:14-19

 

And Now That You Know The Truth

 

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Ephesians 3:9

 

What Are You Going To Do

 

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

 

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Corinthians 5:20-21

 

About Him?

 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

 

Where in scripture did it say a month was 30 days or a year 360 as you posted?

 

 

 

=================================================================================================================

 

In Scripture, GOD speaks to the Great Tribulation as a Time Period....the Last Half of Daniel's 70th Week or 3 1/2 Years as:

 

 

"Time and Times, and a Dividing of Time": Dan 7:25, Dan 12:7, Rev 12:14; "1260 Days": Rev 11:3, Rev 12:6 ; "42 Months": Rev 11:2, Rev 13:5.

 

 

So.....3.5 Years =  1260 Days or 42 Months or Times and Times and a Dividing of Time.

 

 

1260 days / 3.5 = 360 Day Years, Is GOD'S Calendar when relating to us.

 

 

There are about 15 Prominent Civilizations (That I'm not gonna look up now ) that also had 360 Day Years as their Standard.  It appears around 700 BC they started changing.  It also appears that it had something to do with "Mars" and near Pass-By's of the Earth....but that's a Whole other Story and could be connected to The Long Day of Joshua. 

 

But a year isn't just a timekeeping convention. (Months and the seven day week and all that are.) That three hundred and sixty five and a quarter days is how long the Earth takes to make a full orbit of the Sun. Similarly a day is how long it takes for the earth to rotate around it's axis.

 

 

 

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Yep and it's a Strawman (Fallacy).   I say again.....Is GOD'S Calendar when relating to us ....as I have just simply Shown and Supported. 

[OakWood]

 

 

Yeah. OK. That was out of line.

 

Enoch: I apologize without reservation.

 

Enoch: Saying that "Matter has always been" equals "The Universe is Eternal." Is a strawman.

 

The universe could very well be eternal as the cosmos could encompass an inter-dimensional causal chain, looping back in on itself or there could be come causal dead zone with an intelligence residing in it (God) or something or something else that I don't know but near as we can tell matter and this universe made from it has been around for a finite time.

 

Matter, or the energetic components that make up matter, came into existence at the same point or as close to the same point that we cannot currently differentiate them as time. A number of billions of years ago that I don't feel like looking up. To say that something existed before a "First Event" is nonsensical. And I'm fairly certain that we don't have evidence to support there being anything before that.

 

What you say is vaguely possible, I guess... but it takes more faith to believe in that than it does to believe in God.

 

I believe that an unconscious process may have given rise to a set of conditions that created the universe. I don't believe anything beyond a point that has not been demonstrated to be factually true and when asked about it I check to see if what I'm saying is accurate.

 

How does that take more faith than saying that, somehow a human-like all powerful mind, was fully functional and existing without apparent rhyme or reason, spoke the universe into existence, somehow, specifically for us as a species and me in particular because it loves us and me? While also being willing to torture us/ me forever should I do things it doesn't like?

 

 

You said:

"

The universe could very well be eternal as the cosmos could encompass an inter-dimensional causal chain, looping back in on itself or there could be come causal dead zone with an intelligence residing in it (God) or something or something else that I don't know but near as we can tell matter and this universe made from it has been around for a finite time."

 

Pure speculation - a theory invented by you to explain how your view could work. It's like you already have an answer and you're creating a vague theory to fit it, rather than using the scientific method to determine what the answer is. How do you have any proof whatsoever that the Cosmos loops back on itself? You don't but at least you give other theories too, I'll give you that. But at the end of the day they are just possibilities and then you finally admit that you don't know.

You may as well have said - "Maybe the Cosmos was created by a giant dragon or failing that maybe an intelligent alien from an alternative universe came along and created ours, or failing that maybe a giant bird laid an egg and our universe hatched out of it."

Just because a theory is remotely possible, doesn't make it plausible.