Is the Rapture Biblical?

[S.T. Ranger]

S.T. Ranger

Since my logic is twisted, which is the condescending tone you took previously as you questioned the salvation of all pre-trib believers and teachers,

Your response to my first post wasn't exactly meek.

Further I am simply applying what Peter tells us that those who cannot apprehend Paul’s deeper teachings are UNLEARNED and UNSTABLE, and therefore, they TWIST these Scriptures to suit their own interpretations. And, not only do they twist these hard to apprehend Scriptures, but Peter says that they are, "... TWISTING ... THE RESTOF THE SCRIPTURES...Which you clearly demonstrated. You should be angry with yourself, not me.

No where do I question the salvation of a believer whether they pre mid or post rapturists, you are twisting what I said...

Since you mentioned it, one does not gain salvation in believing in the rapture...the doctrine has no bearing on ones salvation....knowing this how could I possibly question it enlighten of our topic? Unless you firmly believe the rapture is paramount to ones salvation?  Then we have two means of salvation? One through rapture and one through resurrection...

You don't understand, I guess, that by applying passages which designate unbelief to your antagonists...you question their salvation, which is not your place to do, particularly when you have not spoken with a person long enough to know their heart.

If you want to be useful to the Lord in posting, and presume to speak for Him, you might consider your approach. While we can question the doctrines of others, and should, who is saved and who is not is better left in the Lord's hands. If we are used of Him in that process, then are we blessed, but, it is doubtful that we could think the Lord makes it a habit of reading one post and then casting that person into the role of false teacher and one who is lost.

As far as my response not being meek, lol, sorry, but there is nothing in there that I would not, and often do...reiterate. If one has a hard time having their doctrine questioned...perhaps forum discussion is not for them.

As far as the false argument of people being saved by the rapture in a salvific sense, there is nothing in my post that suggests that.

So you have two options: you can address the doctrine which I addressed, or, you can continue posting irrelevancies. I will be out of town for a few days so the only posting I might get to do will be on a tablet, which is like getting teeth pulled for me, lol, so I would just suggest we start over, and take a point at a time, and try to reason together like adults.

What say you?

Understand, we are dealing with the most controversial issues there are, and feelings are easily hurt, but it doesn't have to be that way. Nothing you or I say impacts each others' salvation, in the salvific sense, but what may occur is that our perspectives, which are right now in conflict concerning the Rapture, may allow one or the other to understand a perspective we haven't previously considered. I have learned that until we understand the basis of any belief another holds, we do well to put off judgment, particularly when those judgments are eternal in nature, meaning we cast judgment concerning another's salvation. That is not our right, and that is not pleasing, I feel, to the Lord.

I have a strange sense of humor, which is probably the first thing you need to understand about me, and I will neither hesitate to yank chains, or respond in the tone of my antagonist (though I think my tone maintains a sense of humor (even if it isn't recognized as humor, lol)).

So we can set aside irrelevancies, and focus on the doctrine itself, and you never know...we might both learn something. I have learned more from those my doctrinal views come into conflict with than those that would be seen to be in agreement. It's a great process of learning. So no need for emotion, we can just focus on the doctrine.

God bless.

[S.T. Ranger]

Sorry, inchrist, tried twice to respond and they didn't go through. In short, there is enough for you to address already and I will just briefly say that the verse is clear that it is the world, not Heaven, which is in view. You limit tereo se ek in its usage and would advise looking at Strong's for usage and am confident an understanding of being kept from the hour of testing which will come upon the world and all them that dwell on the earth is not only reasonable, but when we look at all that is relevant that is the only tenable view.

The other issue would be that only those born again enter the Kingdom, and that this is just a basic principle of Christ's teaching. It is seen in Matthew 25 in the Sheep and Goat judgment.

Sorry for the short response but limited in what I can do. Just give the points already raised into consideration and may God bless you in your studies.

God bless.

[S.T. Ranger]

By the way: 2 Thessalonians speaks about both, lol. Paul's primary point is neither have happened.

God bless.

[Salty]

Greek tereo is the same word used when Jesus said this...

 

Rev.3

³ Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

 

So there's another example of how Greek tereo is used in Scripture that does not mean being removed from danger, but keeping faithful during danger.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Salty,

 

Just a few thoughts of `Tereo ek.`

 

Jesus enunciated this firm commitment to the Apostle John, "I also will keep (Greek - `Tereo ek`) you from the hour of testing i.e. tribulation which will come on the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth.` (Rev. 3: 10) J.H.Thayer, in his Standard Greek lexicon, construes that, when this verb `tereo` is used with `ek` as in this verse, it means - `by guarding, to cause one to escape in safety out of.` This would indicate emphatically that John was recording a promise of complete removal from the sphere of tribulation, not a preservation through it.

 

The only parallel passage in scripture (John 17: 15) is one which is decisive in confirming this translation. Jesus prayed ...."keep them (tereo ek) from the evil one" ie. completely removed from his control. To properly indicate that the Church was going through the tribulation the Greek preposition `dia,` would have to have been used.

 

Arndt Gingrich International Greek lexicon defines that this is further substantiated by the use of the words `the hour.` God is not only guarding from the tribulation, but from the very time-period itself when these trials will come on the earth dwellers.

 

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

The other issue would be that only those born again enter the Kingdom, and that this is just a basic principle of Christ's teaching. It is seen in Matthew 25 in the Sheep and Goat judgment.

Hi S.T.Ranger,

 

Have you thought that these `sheep` people are still on earth &  that the kingdom they are going into is still on the `damaged` earth. Meaning this is not the `eternal kingdom` where people are `born again,` or `did righteous deeds,` or lived according to the revelation given. As you once said - progressive revelation of God.

 

These `sheep` people are not born again, but just looked after the Jews in the great tribulation. You wouldn`t say that those requirements are the basis of your salvation, would you?

 

Marilyn.

[Salty]

Hi Salty,

 

Just a few thoughts of `Tereo ek.`

 

Jesus enunciated this firm commitment to the Apostle John, "I also will keep (Greek - `Tereo ek`) you from the hour of testing i.e. tribulation which will come on the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth.` (Rev. 3: 10) J.H.Thayer, in his Standard Greek lexicon, construes that, when this verb `tereo` is used with `ek` as in this verse, it means - `by guarding, to cause one to escape in safety out of.` This would indicate emphatically that John was recording a promise of complete removal from the sphere of tribulation, not a preservation through it.

 

The only parallel passage in scripture (John 17: 15) is one which is decisive in confirming this translation. Jesus prayed ...."keep them (tereo ek) from the evil one" ie. completely removed from his control. To properly indicate that the Church was going through the tribulation the Greek preposition `dia,` would have to have been used.

 

Arndt Gingrich International Greek lexicon defines that this is further substantiated by the use of the words `the hour.` God is not only guarding from the tribulation, but from the very time-period itself when these trials will come on the earth dwellers.

 

Marilyn.

 

Regardless of how Greek tereo ek is translated, the context of that Rev.3:7-12 Scripture is about His elect being kept from the hour of temptation (tribulation) by their overcoming the tribulation by staying faithful waiting on His return and not bowing in false worship to the coming Antichrist. Part of that Rev.3 Message Jesus gave them was about their "overcometh", and to "hold fast" till He comes. Those represent His elect because He says they have that "key of David" that he who opens no man can shut, etc. That aligns perfectly with His declaration in Matt.24 and Mark 13 about the coming pseudochristos Matt.24:23-26, i.e., how that false one's working will be so powerful in deception, that IF possible, it would deceive His very elect, meaning He will not allow His elect to be deceived. It also aligns with the time Jesus showed when He comes to gather His elect of His Church, per the Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture.

 

So to apply that sole Rev.3:10 verse as if it means a Pre-tribulational Rapture, then where's all the other Biblical Scripture as a context proof to align with that idea? It's simply not there, and certainly not in Matt.24, Mark 13, nor Luke 21 where He gave the events of the end leading up to His second coming and gathering of His Church. Nor is it within the timing Apostle Paul gave in 2 Thess.2, but instead just the opposite.

 

If that isn't enough, then He, Apostles Paul and Peter also gave us the time of His coming on the Day of The Lord with the "as a thief" metaphor which reveals is also after the tribulation (or to end the tribulation), as per 1 Thess.5, 2 Peter 3:10, and Rev.16:15.

 

So when we have plenty of Scripture evidence like that which shows His coming and our gathering is after the tribulation, especially in Matt.24 and Mark 13, which are direct type statements to that fact, but no such direct statements to prove a Pre-tribulational Rapture, then which idea should we believe and heed?

[S.T. Ranger]

The other issue would be that only those born again enter the Kingdom, and that this is just a basic principle of Christ's teaching. It is seen in Matthew 25 in the Sheep and Goat judgment.

Hi S.T.Ranger,

 

Have you thought that these `sheep` people are still on earth &  that the kingdom they are going into is still on the `damaged` earth. Meaning this is not the `eternal kingdom` where people are `born again,` or `did righteous deeds,` or lived according to the revelation given. As you once said - progressive revelation of God.

 

These `sheep` people are not born again, but just looked after the Jews in the great tribulation. You wouldn`t say that those requirements are the basis of your salvation, would you?

 

Marilyn.

No, because Christ is very clear in His teaching that only those that are born again will enter the Kingdom.

I do not see justification that Israel will be a "shepherd" over Gentiles. As far as the world still being under the curse, that is true, hence the necessity after the Kingdom of the new heavens and earth. However, we see a renovation of sorts, where certain aspects of the curse, such as short life and enmity between man and animals, as well as enmity between men will be greatly affected in those days.

We begin to see those who are not born again in the Kingdom after children are born within that Kingdom. Ultimately, only those who have been born again will enter the Eternal State, and even more specifically, those that have been glorified.

Again, we have to distinguish between the Millennial Kingdom and the Eternal State to properly maintain an understanding about the relevant texts. In the Kingdom, there will be authority given among men, but I do not see authority over Gentiles given to Israel, but to Christ. In the Eternal State, God is the only authority, which is how it was to be in the beginning. Even in the saga of Israel, God was to be King, and they clamored for an earthly one. sadly, Israel, in her blindness, still clamors for an earthly King, when the King of Kings has been given to her, which they reject.

We get into speculation about some things but as I said before, I believe those glorified in the Rapture will have a role similar to the ministry performed by Angels in this Age. I think we will be based in Heaven as Angels are today, and because we are spiritual (in body) at that time will be able to, as the Angels today do, be able to go back and forth. One speculation I would offer, as a parting subject of interest (maybe, lol), is that when God has moved among man previously we have seen new revelation. While we know that salvation culminates in Christ and this will be true eternally, it is interesting to speculate that in that day, in the Kingdom, God may provide more...Scripture.

An incredibly exciting prospect to me, lol. We just don't know how things will be in any specific detail in that Kingdom, and I think all of us truly groan for that day, when we will know Him even as we are known, and have an understanding which we do not now.

Great talking with you.

God bless.

[Spock]

I will answer the original question without having read this entire thread because it is too long:

Is the rapture biblical- absolutely in my mind it is. 1 Thess 4 and I cor 15 are all I need but there is more.

Disclaimer: Do I care if someone doesn't believe as I do - not one bit. I never said I was perfect nor do I believe everything I believe is gospel, so a difference is allowed and expected from some.

If you are a fellow believer, let's get together when you finally make it up to Heaven. I'll be waiting for you.

[Salty]

The thing to do involving the events leading up to Christ's coming and our gathering, is what our Lord Jesus and His Apostles commanded us to do, which was what?

 

Anybody?