divorced peachers teachers

[JimR-OCDS]

Hmmm...I wonder where in Scripture the practice of annulment is avocated? If memory serves me correctly, the Bible says "What God has joined, let no man pull asunder" (Matt 19:6). These people (man and wife) are joined in the eyes of our God; what right does the church have to change what is written, or to add to it?

Right, what God has joined together. Those who get married without knowledge and free will, is that what God joined together? People who marry, sacarmentally, confir the sacrament on each other. They make vows, to each other.

However, if those vows are taken under false pretence, they are invalid.

The Bible should be our final authority on matters such as this, not a church council or pope deciding what God meant.

The Bible was written for the common man to know what God's word is for him/her, and doesn't require a bishop, cardinal, or even pope to interpret for the layity.

It's the Church that gave you the Bible you have. The pillar of faith is the Church, not the Bible.

"But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of faith." 1 Timothy, 3:15

Divorce for adultery, as Jesus stated in Matthew 19:9 is the only acceptable reason...don't see annulment mentioned anywhere.

Lot's of things aren't in the Bible, but are part of the teaching of the Church. Annulment doesn't contradict the Bible, concerning marriage, but confirms it.

Annulment means that a sacramental marriage never took place.

[JimR-OCDS]

An annulment says, marriage never happened.

Huh? We can say something never happened all we want, but if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. Sounds like heavy rationalization, but that is JMO.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OK, define what a marriage is, theologically.

[Guest The Chief]

"Annulment means that a sacramental marriage never took place."

And this is found where in the Scriptures?

"Lot's of things aren't in the Bible, but are part of the teaching of the Church."

Teachings within your church, not mine. We believe that marriage is for LIFE, not at the whim of a church committee.

"Annulment doesn't contradict the Bible..."

But is not supported Biblically, either, seeing as it isn't even mentioned....

"It's the Church that gave you the Bible you have. The pillar of faith is the Church, not the Bible."

"But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of faith." 1 Timothy, 3:15

Check your context. This verse is amid Paul's letter relaying to Timothy proper conduct in the church, not the Bible's position of authority. If you are referring to the Catholic Church, there is another thread addressing the early Catholic translations.

"Right, what God has joined together. Those who get married without knowledge and free will, is that what God joined together? People who marry, sacarmentally, confir the sacrament on each other. They make vows, to each other.

However, if those vows are taken under false pretence, they are invalid."

If Jesus hadn't of meant what he said, why did He say it? You (or your church) seem to be reading into Scripture, instead of letting Scripture speak for itself. I'll be the first to admit I haven't all the answers (only God does), but accepting Scripture at face value is a good start on finding the answers...

[JimR-OCDS]

"It's the Church that gave you the Bible you have. The pillar of faith is the Church, not the Bible."

"But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of faith." 1 Timothy, 3:15

Check your context. This verse is amid Paul's letter relaying to Timothy proper conduct in the church, not the Bible's position of authority. If you are referring to the Catholic Church, there is another thread addressing the early Catholic translations.

Paul's letter is talking about conduct within the ecclesiastical Church, not conduct within a Church building. Church building's didn't exist then.

The fact is, the Church came before the Bible, and nowhere in the Bible does it say that we are to refer only to the Bible. In fact, Jesus gave authority to the Church, on matters of doctrine and teaching, through the apostles. No mention of the Bible having authority over the Apostles.

[barracuda]

Oh, you guys are just gonna love me!

Divorce, where can I begin. Well, let's start with scripture. The verses in 1 Timothy regarding "a husband of one wife" were spoken to those at the time who were involved with Polygamy. These guys in biblical times were involved with mutiple wives at the SAME TIME, so divorce is not the issue here. At least if you are looking at it from a historical perspective in how Timothy was inspired to write what he wrote.

Secondly, let me share my situation, and you can abuse me any way you like. I've been through the ringer on this one multiple times, and probably on this board before as well. I was dating my first wife back in 1992 when she got pregnant. I did the honorable thing and married her. A year later she's not happy and wants a divorce. No, I'm married and we're gonna stick it out. So, we struggle through this for about another year when she decides to come home with a hickey on her neck on New Years Eve. She got liquored up with some "friends" and ended up doing the nasty with one of her friends. Well, adultery is grounds for divorce in my book (that would be the bible), so at that point I told her we were done. Keep in mind also that my ex-wife was not, and is not a Christian (my walk was debatable at that time at best). She's now a practicing Buddhist for what it's worth.

So, after several years of what I would classify as a shotgun wedding we are officially divorced. This is 1994. Our daughter at the time is 2 years old. I end up taking care of her on my own, as a single Dad because my ex-wife is too busy with her "problems" to take care of her daughter, so off I go on my own to raise my daughter. At this point I am depressed, and borderline suicidal and near bankruptcy. The only thing going for me is my daughter. So, I decide that I need to return to church, after a two year absence, and start attending the local church again. They accept me with open arms, and I start singing in the choir. It's here that I would eventually meet my present wife. We date for a year, I propose, we are engaged for a year and get married in 1997. We have a son a couple of years later. Not long after marrying my present wife I feel a calling into music ministry. I've been playing keyboard in church, helping lead worship ministry in churches since about 1998. I've been faithful to the Lord since 1994, and to my wife since 1997 since we've been married.

Now here's the issue - will my divorce from 1992 prevent me from ever becoming a Worship Pastor? The church I am attending and helping lead worship on Sundays is now looking for a Worship Pastor, but yet they haven't even considered me for the position. Is it because I was divorced those many years ago?

The irony in all of this is that Bob Coy, the Senior Pastor at Calvary Chapel in Fort Lauderdale went through a divorce when he was working in the Casino business prior to him knowing Christ. Now he leads a flock of 15,000 people in one of the most dramatic and exploding churches in Florida. But yet it's ok for him to lead a very large church. But not me?

I've heard story after story of convicted criminals who commit murder, are lifelong alcoholics, drug dealers, mafioso types who repent of their former lifestyles and are now on the lecture circuit leading people to Christ through their large ministries.

But here I am - the divorcee. I feel God is calling me into Worship Ministry but everytime I share my life story the door suddenly slams in my face. Suddenly I'm unworthy to lead because of my divorce 12 years ago.

You guys don't see the hypocrisy in this? I made a mistake long ago. I have long since repented of my sin, asked for forgiveness and have tried to lead a new life in Christ, including starting a new family and moving on from what I consider to be a major mistake in my life. But yet the church has never actually forgiven me of this sin of mine.

So who is right here? God, through Christ, who has forgiven me of this, or the church - who will not let me lead Worship?

You be the judge of what I consider the biggest travesty in the life of the church.

There should be a big sign over church doors that says, "Qualified Pastors or Worship Ministers need not apply if you've ever made a mistake with a woman and have been divorced when you were young, impressionable and immature."

Thanks for reading my side of the story.

[JimR-OCDS]

Barracuda,

thanks for sharing your story. Your first marriage, was not a marriage, in the sacramental sense. Your marriage was driven by the pregnancy, not a free choice to join in a sacramental union, which a true marriage is.

Your second marriage is a different story. You both went before God, and professed your vows to each other. This is where God joins two, to be as one.

Can you become a preacher ? I don't see why not!

God bless

Jim

[barracuda]

Barracuda,

                thanks for sharing your story. Your first marriage, was not a marriage, in the sacramental sense. Your marriage was driven by the pregnancy, not a free choice to join in a sacramental union, which a true marriage is.

Your second marriage is a different story. You both went before God, and professed your vows to each other. This is where God joins two, to be as one.

Can you become a preacher ?  I don't see why not!

God bless

Jim

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmmm...funny I've had five churches tell me otherwise.

The one thing I forgot to mention. You've got a homosexual bishop running the New Hampshire Episcopal Diocese, and a "Don't Ask Don't Tell" policy amongst a lot of churches in regards to homosexual priests and pastors, so the church has no problem with a homosexual pastor (or the support of the lifestyle it would seem), but mention the word divorce in the presence of a pastor, or a board of elders at a church and you will NEVER see more scornful and shameful looks at you then in regards to any other personal issue.

Bottom line - it's the unspoken evil in the church. Go ahead and participate with your "partner" in whatever choices the two of you decide to partake in, but don't ever attempt to apply for a leadership position in our church if you should happen to be heterosexual and divorced.

That's not my feelings on things folks, that the facts of the matter, which cannot be disputed. And if my word isn't good enough for you, then you'll just have to accept the fact that I've been living it for the past 10 years.

[Guest yod]

I hope that the counsel from the Word would be taken, and not from opinion of mankind.

Bottom Line

Malachi 2:16 "For the Lord God of Israel says That He hates divorce.

In His Love,

Suzanne

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then we have to stone adulterers to death.

Every case is different and I'm sure you realize that it takes two to tango.

I was married to woman who decided that she wasn't finished partying. I went through more humiliation over 2 years than anyone I've ever heard of...including Hosea.

She filed and I fought it...for HER sake. Eventually she ended up with a guy that beat her and I had to protect the kids so I pushed the divorce through in a month. I was a single dad (4 very small children) for a couple of years there.

My conscious is perfectly clear...there was absolutely no other choice given to me.

But I stepped down from "ministry" the day I became aware of the problem because my family was broken and needed extensive repair.

That process took 7 years and it's hard to imagine how many people would have been defiled had I kept trudging on in "ministry".

No matter who is at fault it's dangerous to allow someone who is going through a divorce to be ministering to a community....and especially with a person of the opposite sex. The temptation is too much.

[Work in Progress]

Barracuda,

                thanks for sharing your story. Your first marriage, was not a marriage, in the sacramental sense. Your marriage was driven by the pregnancy, not a free choice to join in a sacramental union, which a true marriage is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think this is very dangerous advice. The first marriage was most certainly a free, willful choice. It wasn't 'driven by the pregnancy'.

a major mistake in my life. But yet the church has never actually forgiven me of this sin of mine.

I don't think it's a forgiveness issue. Of course you are forgiven by God, and no church has to forgive you. It's a consequence issue. Consequences serve a purpose.

Yes, there are many stories out there that are hard. But most of them leave out the personal responsibility issue. We are responsible for our actions, no matter whether we were Christians, no matter whether we "didn't know" at the time etc. We can repent of them, and be forgiven, but unfortunately they sometimes carry consequences. I'm not pointing the finger too hard, because I'm speaking of myself here as well.

[barracuda]

I don't think it's a forgiveness issue.  Of course you are forgiven by God, and no church has to forgive you. It's a consequence issue. Consequences serve a purpose.

Yes, there are many stories out there that are hard. But most of them leave out the personal responsibility issue. We are responsible for our actions, no matter whether we were Christians, no matter whether we "didn't know" at the time etc. We can repent of them, and be forgiven,  but unfortunately they sometimes carry consequences. I'm not pointing the finger too hard, because I'm speaking of myself here as well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, except your forgot to address the fact that Convicted Murderers, Drug Dealers, Homosexuals, and the like are all in ministry now, but yet someone who gets divorced is a pariah in the church.

There is no even standard would be my point. I can go be a pimp for a couple of years, repent of my lifestyle and jump right back into church and they'd welcome me with open arms. However, if I should get divorced you will never see so many doors slam in your face so fast. The point would be it's a double standard.

Active homosexuality is less of a sin to the church then someone who made a mistake when they were young and immature. And as far as the personal responsibility remark goes - HELLO - I was a single dad by myself, near bankruptcy!!!!! I was just trying to survive and get by!!! But yet you are going to sit here and tell me I need to accept personal responsibility? What kind of a lame excuse is that? If I DIDN'T accept personal responsibility you would NEVER know I was divorced. I would hide that bad boy in the closet and no one would EVER have to know. If I showed up at a church tomorrow with my wife and kids they would have no way of finding out I was divorced other then if I tell them. It's a rare church that would actually take the steps to do a background check on someone in their own ministry.

So by taking the steps to be honest and personally responsible for my past I am left out in the cold, but if I quietly go about leading a double life in homosexuality that makes me a better person in the eyes of the church.

You know, the more I think about this issue makes me really question why I even continue attending church at all. The hypocritical nature of the church with regards to divorce just makes me sick. And the condescending nature of unforgiveness amongst church leadership with regards to this one issue is absolutely disgusting to me in my eyes.

I even had one church that said I couldn't be a member there because of my divorce. But yet God will welcome me into heaven someday. I can get into heaven, but there's no way I will EVER get into your church. How pathetic and sad is that?

No wonder the vast majority of people don't ever want to go to church. The church continues to condemn everyone to hell, meanwhile Jesus continues to love us and welcome us into heaven.

What a crock!