Back on topic as instructed to do.

[JohnD]

God created all things.

 

He called apart the physical Jewish people (beginning with Abram) calling him the father of many physical nations (Abra[ha]m) which The Apostle Paul explained refers to the ekklesia (Church). The gathering of the collective peoples from all walks of life. The spiritual vehicle is klal yisro'el (all Israel) which applied to the physical people of Israel when they were in spiritual obedience / communion with God. There were times when they were not.

 

Jeremiah 9:26 (KJV)
26 Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart.

 

Romans 2:28-29 (KJV)
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

Jeremiah 4:4 (KJV)
4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

 

Deuteronomy 10:16 (KJV)
16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

 

 

Deuteronomy 30:6 (KJV)
6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

 

Romans 9:1-6 (KJV)
1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

 

John 4:18-25 (KJV)
18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.
19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

 

 

[JohnD]

The physical Jews are still God's chosen people of earth.

The spirit Jews (all believers in Yeshua / Jesus) are the chosen people of Heaven.

 

Galatians 4:21-31 (KJV)
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

 

Do not underestimate the antisemitism of Gentiles (even believers in Jesus) that blinds them to their own spiritual identity in Christ.

Neither underestimate the pride of the physical Jews (even believers in Yeshua) that blinds them to the spiritual identity of all who believe in Messiah.

[Guest shiloh357]

Circumcision of the heart is an expression that means to remove sin from one's life.  It is not a redemptive act, but rather refers to the process of sanctification after one is saved.

 

There are no spiritual Jews in heaven.  Where do you come up with that stuff?  "Jew" is an ethnic term, not a spiritual term.  The Bible NEVER uses "Jew" in a spiritual or theological sense to refer to Gentiles.

 

You are making the mistake of allowing your theology to drive your interpretation.  You have one set of Scriptures and you are imposing something you want to be true, on to the passages instead of letting them speak for themselves.  You are forcing something on the word "Jew" that the Bible does not give you the right to do.

[JohnD]

In John 8 when the leaders of the Jews and Jesus mixed it up in debate, they claimed to be the natural offspring of God. Jesus said if you were you'd accept me. But you are of your father the devil (for rejecting him).

 

A few verses earlier Jesus said if you do not believe that "I AM" you are dead in your sins.

 

Here's the rub...

 

ONLY Jesus is the offspring of God the Father. John 1:14b / Hebrews 1:5 / Hebrews 10:5.

 

The angels and humanity and all else is not the creation of God the Father but of God the Word (Jesus preincarnate). Colossians 1:13-16. This is why he was the one in the Godhead who became a man and paid for human sin (he took responsibility for his creation that fell (even though not his fault). That is where the buck truly stops. (1 John 2:1-2).

 

All who are children of the Father are his adopted children (including the physical Jews who believe in Yeshua).

 

Romans 8:15 (KJV)
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

 

Galatians 4:5 (KJV)
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

 

Ephesians 1:3-5 (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

 

Nothing new here.

 

Just another layer to theology that was always there to be discovered.

[JohnD]

Circumcision of the heart is an expression that means to remove sin from one's life.  It is not a redemptive act, but rather refers to the process of sanctification after one is saved.

 

There are no spiritual Jews in heaven.  Where do you come up with that stuff?  "Jew" is an ethnic term, not a spiritual term.  The Bible NEVER uses "Jew" in a spiritual or theological sense to refer to Gentiles.

 

You are making the mistake of allowing your theology to drive your interpretation.  You have one set of Scriptures and you are imposing something you want to be true, on to the passages instead of letting them speak for themselves.  You are forcing something on the word "Jew" that the Bible does not give you the right to do.

Shiloh, please do not interpret my ignoring your responses as my not having answers.

 

I simply do not wish to keep repeating the answers to your baseless claims.

 

I quote scripture after scripture. I point out that you only share your made up opinions.

 

You are entitled to your opinions. Not my time wasted on trying to convince one who will not be convinced.

 

God bless you and may he open the eyes of us all.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

Circumcision of the heart is an expression that means to remove sin from one's life.  It is not a redemptive act, but rather refers to the process of sanctification after one is saved.

 

There are no spiritual Jews in heaven.  Where do you come up with that stuff?  "Jew" is an ethnic term, not a spiritual term.  The Bible NEVER uses "Jew" in a spiritual or theological sense to refer to Gentiles.

 

You are making the mistake of allowing your theology to drive your interpretation.  You have one set of Scriptures and you are imposing something you want to be true, on to the passages instead of letting them speak for themselves.  You are forcing something on the word "Jew" that the Bible does not give you the right to do.

Shiloh, please do not interpret my ignoring your responses as my not having answers.

 

I simply do not wish to keep repeating the answers to your baseless claims.

 

I quote scripture after scripture. I point out that you only share your made up opinions.

 

You are entitled to your opinions. Not my time wasted on trying to convince one who will not be convinced.

 

God bless you and open the eyes of us all.

 

That's fine with me.  I am not interested in your responses.  I am simply responding to you so that people can see the error in the posts that you make and get the proper theological gist of the passages

 

As long as I am putting the correct doctrine alongside what you are teaching, the reader can see the truth as opposed to the notion of Christians being "spiritual Jews" which is not  a biblical or Christian concept, but is wholly man-made.

 

Yeah, you are quoting Scripture.  So what?  The Mormons do that, as well.  I don't have to quote Scripture as I am using the Scriptures YOU present.  See, I don't pit the Bible against itself.  I don't use the Bible to prove the Bible wrong.   I simply show through the verses you present that you are misinterpreting them.  I use Scripture.  You provide all the Scripture I need.

 

The reason I am not convinced is because your teaching is wrong.  My claims are not baseless; otherwise, you would be able to actually refute them, which up to this point, you haven't been able to do.

[Guest]

 

What He Does

 

Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.

 

And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.

 

And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

 

That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. Ezekiel 11:17-20

 

He Does

 

For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

 

Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

 

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

 

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

 

And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. Ezekiel 36:24-28

[Marilyn C]

Hi JohnDB,

 

Now you said -

 

 

 

`He called apart the physical Jewish people (beginning with Abram) calling him the father of many physical nations (Abra[ha]m) which The Apostle Paul explained refers to the ekklesia (Church).`

 

Let`s have a look at this `calling - `God called apart Israel from the nations of the world, to be a people who would rule over & teach the nations of the world about God. Then we have another calling,` also the ekklesia, & these are another group. They are called out from Israel & from the nations, they are a `new man, a royal heavenly nation.`

 

God did not have to make another ekklesia as Israel was already one. (Acts 7: 38) `the ekklesia in the wilderness.` And the Gentiles/nations were already able to come into the blessing of Israel. (see Christ`s lineage & those of Heb. 11) But God made another ekklesia, for He called them out of Israel & the nations. And we know that God`s callings are `...irrevocable.`  (Rom. 11: 29)

 

The Apostle Paul never explained that this new ekklesia was the physical nations from Abraham. Contrary, Paul talks of this revelation that God gave Him concerning this mystery that was hidden. Gentiles coming into Abraham`s blessing was not a mystery but known. What was a mystery & not known was that God was calling a whole new group, a new ekklesia that was a `body,` the Body of Christ.

 

Blessings, Marilyn.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Marilyn C

[firestormx]

Circumcision of the heart is an expression that means to remove sin from one's life.  It is not a redemptive act, but rather refers to the process of sanctification after one is saved.

 

There are no spiritual Jews in heaven.  Where do you come up with that stuff?  "Jew" is an ethnic term, not a spiritual term.  The Bible NEVER uses "Jew" in a spiritual or theological sense to refer to Gentiles.

 

You are making the mistake of allowing your theology to drive your interpretation.  You have one set of Scriptures and you are imposing something you want to be true, on to the passages instead of letting them speak for themselves.  You are forcing something on the word "Jew" that the Bible does not give you the right to do.

Shiloh,

I've always struggled with this topic. I've always been made to feel that if you are not a Jew, then your worthless. You are nothing but trash if you are not a Jew. Jews are everything to God and gentiles are the the left over garbage that is meaningless. That is how this conversation makes me feel. I am just trying to be honest, and hope you will be patient with me. 

 

What is the relation of Gentiles who believe in Jesus as Lord and savior in the family of God?  Please use scripture.

 

What is the relation of Jews who believe in Jesus as Lord and savior in the family of God?  Please use scripture.

 

What is the relation of Jews who Do not believe in Jesus as Lord and savior in the family of God?  Please use scripture.

 

Jew or Gentile, Are we not one family in God?

 

My perception is that whether Jew or Gentile we are one in Christ.

 

Are Gentiles heirs to the promises of Abraham by Faith in Christ?

 

What are Gentiles who believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior excluded from because they were not born with Jewish flesh?

 

As I said from my point of view it's like if your not a Jew, then your not the child of God that they are. That Jews are better than everyone else. This is what it truly sounds like your saying to me. Would you please answer these questions and also elaborate on this topic and your understanding of it as much as you think is required to get your understanding across to me.

 

Thank you.

Firestormx 

[Guest]

What are Gentiles who believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior excluded from because they were not born with Jewish flesh?

 

 

Now these are the names of the tribes. From the north end to the coast of the way of Hethlon, as one goeth to Hamath, Hazar-enan, the border of Damascus northward, to the coast of Hamath; for these are his sides east and west; a portion for Dan.

And by the border of Dan, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Asher.

And by the border of Asher, from the east side even unto the west side, a portion for Naphtali.

And by the border of Naphtali, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Manasseh.

And by the border of Manasseh, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Ephraim.

And by the border of Ephraim, from the east side even unto the west side, a portion for Reuben.

And by the border of Reuben, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Judah.

And by the border of Judah, from the east side unto the west side, shall be the offering which ye shall offer of five and twenty thousand reeds in breadth, and in length as one of the other parts, from the east side unto the west side: and the sanctuary shall be in the midst of it.

 

The oblation that ye shall offer unto the LORD shall be of five and twenty thousand in length, and of ten thousand in breadth.

And for them, even for the priests, shall be this holy oblation; toward the north five and twenty thousand in length, and toward the west ten thousand in breadth, and toward the east ten thousand in breadth, and toward the south five and twenty thousand in length: and the sanctuary of the LORD shall be in the midst thereof.

 

It shall be for the priests that are sanctified of the sons of Zadok; which have kept my charge, which went not astray when the children of Israel went astray, as the Levites went astray.

And this oblation of the land that is offered shall be unto them a thing most holy by the border of the Levites.

And over against the border of the priests the Levites shall have five and twenty thousand in length, and ten thousand in breadth: all the length shall be five and twenty thousand, and the breadth ten thousand.

 

And they shall not sell of it, neither exchange, nor alienate the firstfruits of the land: for it is holy unto the LORD.

And the five thousand, that are left in the breadth over against the five and twenty thousand, shall be a profane place for the city, for dwelling, and for suburbs: and the city shall be in the midst thereof.

And these shall be the measures thereof; the north side four thousand and five hundred, and the south side four thousand and five hundred, and on the east side four thousand and five hundred, and the west side four thousand and five hundred.

 

And the suburbs of the city shall be toward the north two hundred and fifty, and toward the south two hundred and fifty, and toward the east two hundred and fifty, and toward the west two hundred and fifty.

 

And the residue in length over against the oblation of the holy portion shall be ten thousand eastward, and ten thousand westward: and it shall be over against the oblation of the holy portion; and the increase thereof shall be for food unto them that serve the city.

And they that serve the city shall serve it out of all the tribes of Israel.

All the oblation shall be five and twenty thousand by five and twenty thousand: ye shall offer the holy oblation foursquare, with the possession of the city.

And the residue shall be for the prince, on the one side and on the other of the holy oblation, and of the possession of the city, over against the five and twenty thousand of the oblation toward the east border, and westward over against the five and twenty thousand toward the west border, over against the portions for the prince: and it shall be the holy oblation; and the sanctuary of the house shall be in the midst thereof.

 

Moreover from the possession of the Levites, and from the possession of the city, being in the midst of that which is the prince's, between the border of Judah and the border of Benjamin, shall be for the prince.

 

As for the rest of the tribes, from the east side unto the west side, Benjamin shall have a portion.

And by the border of Benjamin, from the east side unto the west side, Simeon shall have a portion.

And by the border of Simeon, from the east side unto the west side, Issachar a portion.

And by the border of Issachar, from the east side unto the west side, Zebulun a portion.

And by the border of Zebulun, from the east side unto the west side, Gad a portion.

And by the border of Gad, at the south side southward, the border shall be even from Tamar unto the waters of strife in Kadesh, and to the river toward the great sea.

 

This is the land which ye shall divide by lot unto the tribes of Israel for inheritance, and these are their portions, saith the Lord GOD.

And these are the goings out of the city on the north side, four thousand and five hundred measures.

 

And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi.

And at the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan.

And at the south side four thousand and five hundred measures: and three gates; one gate of Simeon, one gate of Issachar, one gate of Zebulun.

At the west side four thousand and five hundred, with their three gates; one gate of Gad, one gate of Asher, one gate of Naphtali.

 

It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city from that day shall be, The LORD is there. Ezekiel 48