The Church is Out of Order.

[mdulin2004]

GODLY ORDER OR DISORDER?

Martin Young

Jan 11, 2005

The Scriptures tell us:

Ephesians 4:11:

And He (Jesus) Himself APPOINTED some to be Apostles, some to be Prophets, some to be Evangelists, some to be Pastors and Teachers, (1 Corinthians 12:28).

And GOD HAS APPOINTED IN THE CHURCH first Apostles, second Prophets, third Teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.

God set up the internal structure of His Church ("the called out ones") and APPOINTED there to be in the assemblies "first Apostles, second Prophets, third Teachers" along with the "Evangelists and Pastors/Elders".

Although it is plainly written in the Scriptures the order in which "God has appointed" His ministers within the church, "man" chooses to disregard His command and appoint one "Senior Pastor/Elder" to become the central leader of each assembly. Once in this position, the "Pastor/Elder" assumes FULL CONTROL of "his church". To keep his being in the FIRST POSITION in the assembly, most Pastors refuse to "allow" Apostles and Prophets their rightful place in "their church" and even twist the Scriptures to say that these offices "no longer exist".

THE CHURCH IS OUT OF GODLY ORDER!

God would not have given His church these five ministry offices unless He felt that they were fervently needed. Why did God choose these five ministry offices to form the infrastructure of His Church?

The Scripture says:

"

[Ovedya]

So here you see one of the main problems with using a certain translation and relying completely upon what the translation reads, rather than digging deeper into the word to derive the actual intention of the verses.

In Ephesians 4:11 the word "Didomi" is properly translated "gave or given to." In the Greek there is the strong sense of giving as an administrator, which is why this translation (It is not noted which translation this is, but most translations render the word "gave" anyhow) renders it "appointed."

Another thing forgotten here is the context in which the word "Didomi" is used. In it's context, the word refers to the "gifts given" in verse 8. In terms of the gifts themselves, Paul does not indicate that any of the gifts are in any heirarchical order. In fact, there is not even any indication in these verses that the gifts are given specifically to one or another with the intent or purpose of leadership. According to verse 7 of the passage grace was extended to "each one of us according to the measure of the gift of Christ." And along with the other passages in the Bible related to the gifts themselves and their proper function within the church, this passage tells us that the gifts are for the perfecting of the saints with the goal of the building up of the Body of Christ as a whole.

Thus, all the gifts are to be excercized mutually, in love, and without focus or emphasis on any one gift, in a normal way, for the building up of the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 14:26). So although the gifts vary in function and are specifc according to the needs of the Body, no one gift is greater than another, and no one gift should be used as a means of leadership or to build a heirarchical system.

With regard to pastorship, I do agree that this so-called "office" in the church has been wrongly used and abused. However, with respect to the gifts given to the Body there simply is no administrative hierarchy. In the Body of Christ only Christ is the head. The decons and elders are really the only two functions (I use the word functions because there are no offices) in the Body that are charged with caring for the saints in a practical way. Nevertheless, Christians must understand that these two functions do not grant special "rulership" over the saints with regard to their functioning in the church. According to the Lord's view in the Bible, even the elders and decons themselves are just sheep.

Grace to you,

~O

[FaithfulFollower]

Mdulin,

I agree the church is out of order, but perhaps for different reason... Truly depends on how one chooses to view the situation as well as how one comprehends the scriptures.

The only real issues of which are had upon my account at the current time with the church is how readily they are able to turn away those who seek God as well as cast judgement upon their own brothers and sisters in Christ. There also lingers the self praising, more righteous attitude which has begun to infest churches worldwide and pass as some form of infectious disease.

This...is something that is felt that would make God Himself rather displeased with his children.

With Love In Christ,

Danielle

[Guest yod]

a prophet is to be judged according to the law and the prophets.

If a church thinks that the "Old" testament is done away with, then they have no way of judging do they?

The problem is much deeper than personal ambition though that certainly plays a part...We have far too many seeking high positions instead of low ones.

[JimR-OCDS]

Peter was leader of the Apostles, and shepherd of the Church.

After the resurrection, Jesus appeared to his disciples and asked Peter three times, "Do you love me?" (John 21:15-17). In repentance for his threefold denial, Peter gave a threefold affirmation of love. Then Christ, the Good Shepherd (John 10:11, 14), gave Peter the authority he earlier had promised: "Feed my sheep" (John 21:17)

Also, there is ample evidence in the New Testament that Peter was first in authority among the apostles. Whenever they were named, Peter headed the list (Matt. 10:1-4, Mark 3:16-19, Luke 6:14-16, Acts 1:13); sometimes the apostles were referred to as "Peter and those who were with him" (Luke 9:32). Peter was the one who generally spoke for the apostles (Matt. 18:21, Mark 8:29, Luke 12:41, John 6:68-69), and he figured in many of the most dramatic scenes (Matt. 14:28-32, Matt. 17:24-27, Mark 10:23-28). On Pentecost it was Peter who first preached to the crowds (Acts 2:14-40), and he worked the first healing in the Church age (Acts 3:6-7). It is Peter

[Yahsway]

Yeshua commissioned us all to go and preach the gospel, not just a select few. The problem with a lot of the churches today is that its either run by women or pastors who are to insecure to let other men rise up and take some authority in the assemblies.

I have been seeing this a lot lately, even happened in my own assembly. I have seen assemblies that do not even have deacon and elders, just the pastor and a church secreatary. Go figure.

Men are to be priests not only in their home but also in their local assemblies. It was not meant for just a few. We are supposed to be a body and operate as such.

Yeshua not only had 12 diciples(which in the hebrew simply means taught-ones) he also sent 70 out as well. I now belong to an assembly who operates on the Jethro principle, such as was in the OT. I have never before in my christian walk until now seen so many men in one assembly rise up and be priests of an assembly. Its simply wonderful.

We dont have men just designated to be greeters at the door, or just take up the offering (we leave a box in the back of the assembly for those to give as they can)

But these men lead in songs, (not just the same one every time), they teach, preach, pray over us, its not just the "pastor" that does it. Each one evangelizes thruout their communities where they are from, and are very approachable.

Md2004 brought up some very important issues that are facing the assemblies today. The churches of today should be inclusive not exclusive. Where I used to attend, they closed the doors a lot on Sunday night and Wed. night because the pastor had to be at a Sonic meeting(where he works) When confronted by one of the men in the congregation that maybe they could get a full time assistant pastor, the pastor took offense and now nither one are speaking and needless to say that member left. It looks like a pride issue on the pastors part because hes either afraid to turn someone else loose in the calling or hes afraid he might not be liked as well as someone else. But that shouldnt be because we need to please God not man.Peter was not the only one "feeding Yeshuas sheep". Many pastors of today can be likened to the ones you can read about in Ezekiel 34, read it and see if you havent recognized it as of late.

Yes, there should be order in the corporate functioning assemblies but that doesnt mean just a select few. Doesnt the scriptures say that when we all come togethere some of us have songs to sing, other good reports to report, others a specific teaching or something laid on their heart? Not just the word for the week from the pastor. And yes in order to do that you might have to stay a little longer than 12pm. But doesnt God deserve more than just a few hours of our time each week.

I fellowship at a messianic congregation. We start at 2pm and might I add we usually dont dis assemble until around 10pm. And its awesome. I love every minute of it. And its not just one man leading, its all the men who have a heart for Gods sheep.

Sorry so long but i felt compelled to address this as I see it. Shalom

[JimR-OCDS]

Yeshua commissioned us all to go and preach the gospel, not just a select few. The problem with a lot of the churches today is that its either run by women or pastors who are to insecure to let other men rise up and take some authority in the assemblies.

I have been seeing this a lot lately, even happened in my own assembly. I have seen assemblies that do not even have deacon and elders, just the pastor and a church secreatary. Go figure.

Men are to be priests not only in their home but also in their local assemblies. It was not meant for just a few. We are supposed to be a body and operate as such.

Yeshua not only had 12 diciples(which in the hebrew simply means taught-ones) he also sent 70 out as well. I now belong to an assembly who operates on the Jethro principle, such as was in the OT. I have never before in my christian walk until now seen so many men in one assembly rise up and be priests of an assembly. Its simply wonderful.

We dont have men just designated to be greeters at the door, or just take up the offering (we leave a box in the back of the assembly for those to give as they can)

But these men lead in songs, (not just the same one every time), they teach, preach, pray over us, its not just the "pastor" that does it. Each one evangelizes thruout their communities where they are from, and are very approachable.

Md2004 brought up some very important issues that are facing the assemblies today. The churches of today should be inclusive not exclusive. Where I used to attend, they closed the doors a lot on Sunday night and Wed. night because the pastor had to be at a Sonic meeting(where he works) When confronted by one of the men in the congregation that maybe they could get a full time assistant pastor, the pastor took offense and now nither one are speaking and needless to say that member left. It looks like a pride issue on the pastors part because hes either afraid to turn someone else loose in the calling or hes afraid he might not be liked as well as someone else. But that shouldnt be because we need to please God not man.Peter was not the only one "feeding Yeshuas sheep". Many pastors of today can be likened to the ones you can read about in Ezekiel 34, read it and see if you havent recognized it as of late.

Yes, there should be order in the corporate functioning assemblies but that doesnt mean just a select few. Doesnt the scriptures say that when we all come togethere some of us have songs to sing, other good reports to report, others a specific teaching or something laid on their heart? Not just the word for the week from the pastor. And yes in order to do that you might have to stay a little longer than 12pm. But doesnt God deserve more than just a few hours of our time each week.

I fellowship at a messianic congregation. We start at 2pm and might I add we usually dont dis assemble until around 10pm. And its awesome. I love every minute of it. And its not just one man leading, its all the men who have a heart for Gods sheep.

Sorry so long but i felt compelled to address this as I see it. Shalom

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jesus told "deciples" to spread the good news. He chose and gave authority to the "Apostles," who were the theacher's of the Church. The Apostles did not share that authority with anyone. They even chose a replacement for Judas, Matthias.

If everyone shared the same authority, they would not have chosen replacements. (Acts 1:26)

Also, Ephesians 2:20, says the household of God is "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone."

The prophets here are not the writers of the Old Testament but prophets of the New Testament age, as made clear by the two other references to them in the epistle (Eph. 3:5, 4:11).

Together with the apostles, they form the Church

[Ovedya]

Yeshua commissioned us all to go and preach the gospel, not just a select few. The problem with a lot of the churches today is that its either run by women or pastors who are to insecure to let other men rise up and take some authority in the assemblies.

I have been seeing this a lot lately, even happened in my own assembly. I have seen assemblies that do not even have deacon and elders, just the pastor and a church secreatary. Go figure.

Men are to be priests not only in their home but also in their local assemblies. It was not meant for just a few. We are supposed to be a body and operate as such.

Yeshua not only had 12 diciples(which in the hebrew simply means taught-ones) he also sent 70 out as well. I now belong to an assembly who operates on the Jethro principle, such as was in the OT. I have never before in my christian walk until now seen so many men in one assembly rise up and be priests of an assembly. Its simply wonderful.

We dont have men just designated to be greeters at the door, or just take up the offering (we leave a box in the back of the assembly for those to give as they can)

But these men lead in songs, (not just the same one every time), they teach, preach, pray over us, its not just the "pastor" that does it. Each one evangelizes thruout their communities where they are from, and are very approachable.

Md2004 brought up some very important issues that are facing the assemblies today. The churches of today should be inclusive not exclusive. Where I used to attend, they closed the doors a lot on Sunday night and Wed. night because the pastor had to be at a Sonic meeting(where he works) When confronted by one of the men in the congregation that maybe they could get a full time assistant pastor, the pastor took offense and now nither one are speaking and needless to say that member left. It looks like a pride issue on the pastors part because hes either afraid to turn someone else loose in the calling or hes afraid he might not be liked as well as someone else. But that shouldnt be because we need to please God not man.Peter was not the only one "feeding Yeshuas sheep". Many pastors of today can be likened to the ones you can read about in Ezekiel 34, read it and see if you havent recognized it as of late.

Yes, there should be order in the corporate functioning assemblies but that doesnt mean just a select few. Doesnt the scriptures say that when we all come togethere some of us have songs to sing, other good reports to report, others a specific teaching or something laid on their heart? Not just the word for the week from the pastor. And yes in order to do that you might have to stay a little longer than 12pm. But doesnt God deserve more than just a few hours of our time each week.

I fellowship at a messianic congregation. We start at 2pm and might I add we usually dont dis assemble until around 10pm. And its awesome. I love every minute of it. And its not just one man leading, its all the men who have a heart for Gods sheep.

Sorry so long but i felt compelled to address this as I see it. Shalom

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jesus told "deciples" to spread the good news. He chose and gave authority to the "Apostles," who were the theacher's of the Church. The Apostles did not share that authority with anyone. They even chose a replacement for Judas, Matthias.

If everyone shared the same authority, they would not have chosen replacements. (Acts 1:26)

Also, Ephesians 2:20, says the household of God is "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone."

The prophets here are not the writers of the Old Testament but prophets of the New Testament age, as made clear by the two other references to them in the epistle (Eph. 3:5, 4:11).

Together with the apostles, they form the Church

[Yahsway]

Good question Ovedya, I understand about the founding apostles, I am not questioning or referring to them,Im questioning about the ones who proclaim they are today.

As far as a replacement for Judas, they really did not "choose" either, but cast lots and relied on what I am only to assume that God chose for them thru casting those lots.

[Guest Nighthawk]

Hi everyone, I'm Nighthawk, and this is my first post.

After spending quite a bit of time reading (and enjoying) all of

your posts in this thread, I believe I've found a strong fellowship

of mature and loving Christian brothers and sisters.

I look forward to mdulin2004's reply to the excellent discussion that she

began here.

While every poster had very good points, and something to either teach

or remind the others of, the comment that touched a chord with me perhaps

more than any other, came from Yod:

We have far too many seeking high positions instead of low ones.

I'm very happy to have found you all, and look forward to reading more

of your comments on the rest of the board.

Hawk

Edited January 14, 2005 by Nighthawk