Where is Joseph and His Land in the End Times?

[Salty]

 

...why the seed of Joseph and where God scattered his descendents and then blessed them must remain a mystery among the majority until Christ's second coming.

Judging from the lack of response to this string, this certainly seems to be a mystery to the folks on this website! 

 

 

That's because I think (correct me if I'm wrong), this forum is an Israeli site. Ephraim is lost to most of them.

 

Per your mention about the 6th-7th vial timing, the 7th vial actually is... the Armageddon (with Ezek.39) timing. Notice Jesus is warning about His coming still on the 6th Vial in prep for the coming the 7th Vial. The traditional view of the order of the Revelation seals, trumpets, and vials have them occurring as separate timed sections, when in actuality they all are only about the 7 signs for the end our Lord Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse.

[WilliamL]

 

That's because I think (correct me if I'm wrong), this forum is an Israeli site. Ephraim is lost to most of them.

 

Per your mention about the 6th-7th vial timing, the 7th vial actually is... the Armageddon (with Ezek.39) timing. Notice Jesus is warning about His coming still on the 6th Vial in prep for the coming the 7th Vial. The traditional view of the order of the Revelation seals, trumpets, and vials have them occurring as separate timed sections, when in actuality they all are only about the 7 signs for the end our Lord Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse.

 

The site's origin is Israel, but it appears to me that most of the users are in the U.S. and elsewhere.

 

Agreed that the Armageddon battle takes place at the 7th Vial/Bowl, although during the 6th Vial/Bowl "they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon."

 

Disagree that the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls are not sequential. Their types were sequential during the Exodus, and again during the era of Solomon's succession, and they will be so again. The Olivet Discourse covers the period of the Great Trib up through Christ's coming in the clouds for his Church. It does not speak of his coming to set his feet on the Mount of Olives, that is, on earth, which is the time of the Armageddon and Jerusalem battles of Ezek. 39 and Zech 14 and Rev. 16 and 19:11f.

[Salty]

 

 

That's because I think (correct me if I'm wrong), this forum is an Israeli site. Ephraim is lost to most of them.

 

Per your mention about the 6th-7th vial timing, the 7th vial actually is... the Armageddon (with Ezek.39) timing. Notice Jesus is warning about His coming still on the 6th Vial in prep for the coming the 7th Vial. The traditional view of the order of the Revelation seals, trumpets, and vials have them occurring as separate timed sections, when in actuality they all are only about the 7 signs for the end our Lord Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse.

 

The site's origin is Israel, but it appears to me that most of the users are in the U.S. and elsewhere.

 

Agreed that the Armageddon battle takes place at the 7th Vial/Bowl, although during the 6th Vial/Bowl "they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon."

 

Disagree that the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls are not sequential. Their types were sequential during the Exodus, and again during the era of Solomon's succession, and they will be so again. The Olivet Discourse covers the period of the Great Trib up through Christ's coming in the clouds for his Church. It does not speak of his coming to set his feet on the Mount of Olives, that is, on earth, which is the time of the Armageddon and Jerusalem battles of Ezek. 39 and Zech 14 and Rev. 16 and 19:11f.

 

 

We disagree on that latter part then, because I see His coming and gathering in His Olivet Discourse linked directly to 1 Thess.4 and 1 Cor.15 about both, the 'asleep' saints He brings with Him and His saints still alive on earth at that moment being gathered. The slight difference between that in Matt.24 and Mark 13 points to it. His return is to this earth per Acts 1 and Zech.14, and if His coming involved a gathering and then later a return after the last vial, that would be two comings, not one.

[S.T. Ranger]

Let's not change... the actual 'promise' Jacob gave to Joseph's sons Ephraim and Manasseh involving Ephraim becoming "a multitude of nations" (plural). And his brother Manasseh also was to become "great" (i.e., a great nation). None of that involves the nation state of Israel in the holy lands today.

Agreed.

 

God split the ten tribes of the northern "kingdom of Israel" apart from the southern kingdom that was called the "kingdom on Judah" after Solomon's days. Then He caused all the ten tribes of the northern kingdom that was under Ephraim's care to be taken captive to Assyria and the land of the Medes, that while Judah remained in the holy land at Jerusalem/Judea, the tribes of Benjamin and Levi with Judah.

It was not just Judah, Benjamin, and Levi:

2 Chronicles 11:13-17King James Version (KJV)

13 And the priests and the Levites that were in all Israel resorted to him out of all their coasts.

14 For the Levites left their suburbs and their possession, and came to Judah and Jerusalem: for Jeroboam and his sons had cast them off from executing the priest's office unto the Lord:

15 And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devils, and for the calves which he had made.

16 And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the Lord God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the Lord God of their fathers.

17 So they strengthened the kingdom of Judah, and made Rehoboam the son of Solomon strong, three years: for three years they walked in the way of David and Solomon.

 

The ten northern tribes of the kingdom of Israel (or "house of Israel" after Solomon's days), made up the majority of seed of all the 12 tribes. God scattered them among the Gentiles as He said He would if His people fell away from Him (Deut.4; 28). But He did not lose them. They migrated north and west mainly, into Asia Minor and Europe, which is exactly where The Gospel was preached to after Christ Jesus was rejected by the majority of Jews in Judea.

I have to reject this, based on the passage above. Members of all the Tribes returned to Judah because of Jeroboam's demonic idolatry, beginning with the Tribe of Levi, and then those that also desired to worship God according to, presumably, the Law.

The theory of the "Ten Lost Tribes" becoming European Nations that exist to this day is, I believe, based in racist fancy and should not be given credibility. It is an interesting topic, though, so just wanted to present this to see what you think.

God bless.

Edited December 22, 2014 by S.T. Ranger

[Salty]

 

I have to reject this, based on the passage above. Members of all the Tribes returned to Judah because of Jeroboam's demonic idolatry, beginning with the Tribe of Levi, and then those that also desired to worship God according to, presumably, the Law.

The theory of the "Ten Lost Tribes" becoming European Nations that exist to this day is, I believe, based in racist fancy and should not be given credibility. It is an interesting topic, though, so just wanted to present this to see what you think.

God bless.

 

 

Reject, or slander, what you want. You nor I can change history, nor the Bible prophecy about the lost ten tribes under Ephraim becoming "a multitude of nations" along with many other associated Bible prophecies, especially the one about Joseph's seed that his father Jacob gave in Genesis 49 for the "last days".

 

2 Chronicles 11 with small numbers from the northern ten tribes that went south to join with the tribes of Judah and Benjamin because of what Jeroboam did were not in a majority. All those living in the lands of Judea in the south with the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, took the title of Jew, including foreigners that lived there.

 

The fact that the ten tribes would become a great number of people, too many to be numbered, like the Jewish historian Josephus said in his day around 100 A.D., remains, along with the evidences of the Bible prophecies. Applying racist sentiments to this is to mock even Jewish scholars who know those prophecies specifically given about the ten tribes after God removed them from the holy lands.

 

The real fact is... NOT ALL ISRAELITES ARE 'JEWS'. The Jews, that title coming from the tribe of Judah, became the "kingdom of Judah" when God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms after Solomon's days. Per Josephus, all living in Judea took that title of Jew after their return from their Babylon captivity. But that didn't involve the scattered ten tribes of the "house of Israel' because they were removed prior to the "house of Judah" (Jews) going captive to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar.

 

Thusly, the idea that only someone claiming to be a Jew can claim to be an Israelite by birth from one of the 12 tribes is a fallacy. The idea of a non-Jew born of one of the ten tribes is not anti-semitic (i.e., descended from Shem) since all born of the seed of Israel are Israelites.

 

What is... anti-semitic are foreigners of the Gentiles not born of the seed of any of the twelve tribes claiming to be a Jew, and there are many of those today, even as shown by the Kenites becoming the scribes of Israel:

 

1 Chronicles 2

55 And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.

 

 

Origins of the Kenites... numbered with the Canaanites before Jacob was born...

 

Genesis 15

18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying , Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,

20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,

21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.

[WilliamL]

We disagree on that latter part then, because I see His coming and gathering in His Olivet Discourse linked directly to 1 Thess.4 and 1 Cor.15 about both, the 'asleep' saints He brings with Him and His saints still alive on earth at that moment being gathered. The slight difference between that in Matt.24 and Mark 13 points to it. His return is to this earth per Acts 1 and Zech.14, and if His coming involved a gathering and then later a return after the last vial, that would be two comings, not one.

 

In response to the underlined part: that is exactly what happened just after the beginning, and then the end, of the Exodus. He descended first upon Mt. Sinai, in clouds and quake etc., and called his chosen ones up to him. This is the type of Christ's coming in the clouds to take up his elect after a great earthquake, described in Matt. 24 and at the Sixth Seal.

 

At the end of the Exodus, when the Israelites had entered Canaan, the LORD came again on the day the Sun and Moon stood still, when "the LORD fought for Israel" against the kings of the peoples gathered together against them. Joshua 10:14 This was the type of his coming to earth in Zech. 14, when again there "shall be one day which is known to the LORD...at evening time it shall happen that it will be light," "then the LORD will go forth and fight against [the] nations." 14:6, 3

 

So there will be two comings in the End Times, the first when Christ comes in the clouds of heaven to take up his saints/chosen/elect = Church. The Church is a spiritual body, with a heavenly inheritance, the New Jerusalem in heaven:

 

Heb. 12:22 But you are come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven...

 

The second End Times coming of Christ will be when he returns all the way to earth to fight the nations gathered against Israel. Israel is an earthly people, with an earthly inheritance, and an earthly Jerusalem, where Jesus will establish his earthly kingdom.

 

Matt. 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

 

There are two places in which the Lord will reign. The Church, which received their covenant last, will be saved first; and Israel, which received their covenant first, will be saved last.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Hippie333
link removed

[Salty]

 

We disagree on that latter part then, because I see His coming and gathering in His Olivet Discourse linked directly to 1 Thess.4 and 1 Cor.15 about both, the 'asleep' saints He brings with Him and His saints still alive on earth at that moment being gathered. The slight difference between that in Matt.24 and Mark 13 points to it. His return is to this earth per Acts 1 and Zech.14, and if His coming involved a gathering and then later a return after the last vial, that would be two comings, not one.

 

In response to the underlined part: that is exactly what happened just after the beginning, and then the end, of the Exodus. He descended first upon Mt. Sinai, in clouds and quake etc., and called his chosen ones up to him. This is the type of Christ's coming in the clouds to take up his elect after a great earthquake, described in Matt. 24 and at the Sixth Seal.

 

At the end of the Exodus, when the Israelites had entered Canaan, the LORD came again on the day the Sun and Moon stood still, when "the LORD fought for Israel" against the kings of the peoples gathered together against them. Joshua 10:14 This was the type of his coming to earth in Zech. 14, when again there "shall be one day which is known to the LORD...at evening time it shall happen that it will be light," "then the LORD will go forth and fight against [the] nations." 14:6, 3

 

So there will be two comings in the End Times, the first when Christ comes in the clouds of heaven to take up his saints/chosen/elect = Church. The Church is a spiritual body, with a heavenly inheritance, the New Jerusalem in heaven:

 

Heb. 12:22 But you are come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven...

 

The second End Times coming of Christ will be when he returns all the way to earth to fight the nations gathered against Israel. Israel is an earthly people, with an earthly inheritance, and an earthly Jerusalem, where Jesus will establish his earthly kingdom.

 

Matt. 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

 

There are two places in which the Lord will reign. The Church, which received their covenant last, will be saved first; and Israel, which received their covenant first, will be saved last.

 

 

Sorry brother, I cannot accept all that.

 

The "caught up" idea is to be weighed with what Paul also taught in 1 Cor.15 regarding the twinkling of an eye change to the "spiritual body" on the Day of The Lord. And that aligns with what our Lord Jesus taught about His coming and our gathering in His Olivet Discourse of Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, and especially the Rev.16:15 "as a thief" link to 1 Thess.5 and 2 Pet.3:10.

 

Many fail to understand how all peoples alive on earth on that day will cast off their flesh with the spiritual body revealed, which is the body of the world to come when Jesus begins His Millennial reign on earth.

 

In 1 Thess.4 when Paul said we will be "caught up" into the "air", the "last trump" events of 1 Cor.15 come into play, as do the 7th Trumpet and 7th Vial events (Armageddon). It takes longer to read God's Word about those events than it will take for all of it to occur at an instant, suddenly, with that same hour of Rev.11, as also per the prophecies in Isaiah.

 

The other examples of Greek harpazo ("caught up") also come into play, like the 2 Cor.12 example of the one caught up to Paradise to the third heaven. Thus Paul's being caught up into the air actually implies the change to the spiritual body at an instant, the Heavenly revealed to all on earth. And when I say the Heavenly revealed to all 'on earth', I mean exactly that. So indeed our true home is the "heavenly Jerusalem", but our Lord Jesus is bring that here, on earth. This is why we're given the detail of the Ezekiel layout on earth for Christ's future Millennial reign, The Father's House being that temple of the Book of Ezekiel.

[WilliamL]

Matt. 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

 

There are two places in which the Lord will reign. The Church, which received their covenant last, will be saved first; and Israel, which received their covenant first, will be saved last.

 

Sorry brother, I cannot accept all that.

 

The "caught up" idea is to be weighed with what Paul also taught in 1 Cor.15 regarding the twinkling of an eye change to the "spiritual body" on the Day of The Lord. And that aligns with what our Lord Jesus taught about His coming and our gathering in His Olivet Discourse of Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, and especially the Rev.16:15 "as a thief" link to 1 Thess.5 and 2 Pet.3:10.

 

Many fail to understand how all peoples alive on earth on that day will cast off their flesh with the spiritual body revealed, which is the body of the world to come when Jesus begins His Millennial reign on earth.

 

In 1 Thess.4 when Paul said we will be "caught up" into the "air", the "last trump" events of 1 Cor.15 come into play, as do the 7th Trumpet and 7th Vial events (Armageddon). It takes longer to read God's Word about those events than it will take for all of it to occur at an instant, suddenly, with that same hour of Rev.11, as also per the prophecies in Isaiah.

 

The other examples of Greek harpazo ("caught up") also come into play, like the 2 Cor.12 example of the one caught up to Paradise to the third heaven. Thus Paul's being caught up into the air actually implies the change to the spiritual body at an instant, the Heavenly revealed to all on earth. And when I say the Heavenly revealed to all 'on earth', I mean exactly that. So indeed our true home is the "heavenly Jerusalem", but our Lord Jesus is bring that here, on earth. This is why we're given the detail of the Ezekiel layout on earth for Christ's future Millennial reign, The Father's House being that temple of the Book of Ezekiel.

 

You know in part and see in part. What you fail to accept is that the Kingdom of Heaven, while establishing its rule over earth in the coming Millennium, remains heavenly, in heaven. Where it is now, where it has always been, where it always will be. Those who are changed, like Jesus was at his resurrection, will be able to live in both the heavens and on the earth, like Jesus. Those among men who are not changed will only be able to live on earth, as at the present.

 

You write, "all peoples alive on earth on that day will cast off their flesh with the spiritual body revealed."  No Scripture says this; this is false. You are welcome to show me wrong by the Scriptures, if you believe you can.

 

You say, "Paul's being caught up into the air actually implies the change to the spiritual body at an instant, the Heavenly revealed to all on earth." But when Jesus was caught up on the Mount of Olives, he was concealed from all on earth.  The same will be the case at the Rapture of the elect/chosen; for not all will be changed, only some, the "elect/chosen." Matt. 24:31  The Scriptures clearly say that most men will mourn and hide from the Lord at this time, not cease to exist, and certainly not "cast off their flesh."

[Salty]

 

You know in part and see in part. What you fail to accept is that the Kingdom of Heaven, while establishing its rule over earth in the coming Millennium, remains heavenly, in heaven. Where it is now, where it has always been, where it always will be. Those who are changed, like Jesus was at his resurrection, will be able to live in both the heavens and on the earth, like Jesus. Those among men who are not changed will only be able to live on earth, as at the present.

 

Salty:  study in God's Old Testament prophets along with New Testament study reveals what I described. The full Godhead does not return to this earth at Christ's 2nd coming. Only The Son does, when coming to gather His Church along with the asleep saints He brings with Him according to Apostle Paul in 1 Thess.4. Nothing there about Jesus coming half-way to earth to gather His saints on earth and then pop back up into Heaven again to wait out the tribulation. His coming will end the "great tribulation" He foretold us of, and that at an instant per God's prophets. Isaiah 25 reveals all on earth will be changed, which is where Apostle Paul was pulling from with the death swallowed up idea in 1 Corinthians 15. This is why Jesus showed on the day of His coming the wicked dead are raised to their "resurrection of damnation" also, per John 5:28-29.

 

 

You write, "all peoples alive on earth on that day will cast off their flesh with the spiritual body revealed."  No Scripture says this; this is false. You are welcome to show me wrong by the Scriptures, if you believe you can.

 

Salty:  I did show that, per the above, especially with John 5:28-29 about the unjust "resurrection of damnation" manifesting on the day of Christ's return also. Another proof is with the only type of death remaining per Rev.20 after Jesus' coming and start of His thousand years reign with His elect. Only the "second death" remains then for the wicked in resurrection bodies, which is not a death of the flesh. And yet another proof is the Day of The Lord when God pours out His cup of wrath on the earth in conjunction with His consuming fire burning the elements of man's works off the earth, which Apostle Peter compared that to the event of God's cleansing the surface of the earth with a flood of old, as per the 2 Peter 3 chapter. The end of Hebrews 12 is another parallel to that event also. It will be the time of the "plague" of Zechariah 14.

 

 

You say, "Paul's being caught up into the air actually implies the change to the spiritual body at an instant, the Heavenly revealed to all on earth." But when Jesus was caught up on the Mount of Olives, he was concealed from all on earth.  The same will be the case at the Rapture of the elect/chosen; for not all will be changed, only some, the "elect/chosen." Matt. 24:31  The Scriptures clearly say that most men will mourn and hide from the Lord at this time, not cease to exist, and certainly not "cast off their flesh."

 

Salty:  actually per the Acts 1 description, His Apostles standing there on the Mount of Olives with Him saw Him ascend up into Heaven on a cloud. And then two angels appeared to them telling them Jesus will return in like manner how He ascended. Per Rev.1, every eye shall see Him coming in the clouds, even those who pierced Him.

 

What the majority of the Pre-Trib Rapture school thinks comes from lack of Bible study in all of it, missing the descriptions of the end per God's OT prophets, and failing to understand New Testament prophecy in conjunction with the Old Testament prophecies about the same subject. God's House for the Millennium is show on earth per Ezekiel 40 through 47. And the last verse of Ezekiel 48 shows the holy city on earth with a new name that means "The LORD is there".

 

 

[WilliamL]

 

Salty said, The full Godhead does not return to this earth at Christ's 2nd coming. Only The Son does, when coming to gather His Church along with the asleep saints He brings with Him according to Apostle Paul in 1 Thess.4. Nothing there about Jesus coming half-way to earth to gather His saints on earth and then pop back up into Heaven again to wait out the tribulation. His coming will end the "great tribulation" He foretold us of, and that at an instant per God's prophets. Isaiah 25 reveals all on earth will be changed, which is where Apostle Paul was pulling from with the death swallowed up idea in 1 Corinthians 15. This is why Jesus showed on the day of His coming the wicked dead are raised to their "resurrection of damnation" also, per John 5:28-29.

Part of our difference is that I quote the verses that show what I believe, but you just quote numbers of verses, and say what you believe they say. Take 1 Thes. 4:

 

4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

Nothing here about Christ's return to the earth all the way; quite the contrary, we are taken up into the air. Regarding your words, "then pop back up into Heaven again to wait out the tribulation. His coming will end the "great tribulation" -- the Great Tribulation has already ended at this time, as I have shown earlier. Please don't misrepresent what I've written.

 

Re: the wicked dead being raised, as well as the righteous, Dan. 12:2 tells us that "many...shall awake," not all. Is. 65:20 says, "For the child shall die one hundred years old," which shows there will still be death on earth. Likewise, Rev. 20:13 tells us that at the end of the Millennium,

 

The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

 

-- which shows again that there will be physical death during the Millennium.

 

 

 

You say, "Paul's being caught up into the air actually implies the change to the spiritual body at an instant, the Heavenly revealed to all on earth." But when Jesus was caught up on the Mount of Olives, he was concealed from all on earth.  The same will be the case at the Rapture of the elect/chosen; for not all will be changed, only some, the "elect/chosen." Matt. 24:31  The Scriptures clearly say that most men will mourn and hide from the Lord at this time, not cease to exist, and certainly not "cast off their flesh."

 

Salty:  actually per the Acts 1 description, His Apostles standing there on the Mount of Olives with Him saw Him ascend up into Heaven on a cloud. And then two angels appeared to them telling them Jesus will return in like manner how He ascended. Per Rev.1, every eye shall see Him coming in the clouds, even those who pierced Him.

 

What the majority of the Pre-Trib Rapture school thinks comes from lack of Bible study in all of it, missing the descriptions of the end per God's OT prophets, and failing to understand New Testament prophecy in conjunction with the Old Testament prophecies about the same subject. God's House for the Millennium is show on earth per Ezekiel 40 through 47. And the last verse of Ezekiel 48 shows the holy city on earth with a new name that means "The LORD is there".

In your first paragraph, you are conflating the coming of Christ in the clouds to take up his Church -- to keep them out of "the day of his wrath," Rev. 6:16 -- with his return to earth to fight the Battles of Armageddon and Jerusalem, which conclude the Day of Wrath. This is where you and so many misunderstand the sequence of events of the End Times.

 

God's judgment will take place in 4 stages:

1) the Lord will judge and cast down the rebellious heavenly elohim;

2) he will then remove the elect only of his Church from earth at the 6th Seal (which concludes the Great Tribulation of the first 5 Seals) to keep them from his Day of Wrath;

3) he will then judge and separate the righteous from the unrighteous of the remnant of Jacob on earth, during the period of the Trumpets --

Ezek. 20:33 [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you: 34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out. 35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face. 36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD. 37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant: 38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me...

 

4) And lastly, during the 7 Bowls, he will judge the unbelieving Gentiles, which culminates in the Battle of Armageddon.

 

Your final dig against the Pre-Trib Rapture schol is irrelevant to this discussion, because I have never supported that teaching either.   

Edited January 2, 2015 by WilliamL