the sin that cannot be forgiven?

[Mr Nice]

 

 

 

Why do you continue to refer to the works I am speaking of when I do not claim my works do anything?  The works we do through faith are the works which God prepared for us to do.  Abraham leaving his homeland and going to the land of promise was a work God prepared for him to do.  Abraham didn't go because he decided it was the right thing to do.  He did it because he believed God. This doesn't negate the fact that in order to receive the promise He had to leave his home land.  If he had not gone then we would not have received the promise.  Same with his son Isaac, Isaac would not have been born unless he believed God and laid with Sarah.  What would have happened if Abraham would not acted on his faith that God would raise Isaac from the dead after he sacrificed him?  His faith would not have been proven before God, he would not have received the blessing, and we would not have received the promise of the Holy Spirit.  It was after Abraham did everything but kill his son that an angel of God stopped Him saying "for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son from me".  

 

Gen 22:10-18  Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.  (11)  But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am."  (12)  He said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me."  (13)  Then Abraham raised his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him a ram caught in the thicket by his horns; and Abraham went and took the ram and offered him up for a burnt offering in the place of his son.  (14)  Abraham called the name of that place The LORD Will Provide, as it is said to this day, "In the mount of the LORD it will be provided."  (15)  Then the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven,  (16)  and said, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son,  (17)  indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies.  (18)  "In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."

 

 

 

Yes, God has prepared works for us to do, but that is AFTER we are saved (Eph. 2:10).  We are saved unto good works prepared for us.   It's referring to the sanctification process.  God works through and in us to conform us into the image of Christ.   You, however, teach that works are necessary to secure a salvation we have already receive that is false teaching and does not represent the authentic New Testament faith.  You are outside of Christianity and outside of Christ given that you trust in works for salvation and not in Christ alone.

 

His faith alone could not grant him the blessings and promises of God.  He had to act on his faith in order to receive anything God promised.  That is why Paul said in Romans 4 that it is those who follow in the STEPS of the faith of Abraham.  Abraham didn't have to work for the promise. In fact, if you read Genesis 15, God made a blood covenant with Abraham based on faith alone.  Abraham didn't walk between the halves in that covenant, only God did.  Means that God alone was responsible for making the covenant a sure thing.  The Abrahamic Covenant was not based on Abraham's works or His conduct.   God doesn't share glory or credit for anything.

 

His faith alone could not grant him the blessings and promises of God.  He had to act on his faith in order to receive anything God promised.  That is why Paul said in Romans 4 that it is those who follow in the STEPS of the faith of Abraham.  

 

Rom 4:10-12  How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;  (11)  and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,  (12)  and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.

 

But that makes my point, not yours.  Abraham was justified 25 years before circumcision and 430 years before the law was given.  Abraham was justified by faith alone before God.  It is also worth pointing out that Abraham sinned miserably after He was justified by faith.  Had Abraham been justified before God by works, he would have lost his salvation when he lied (a second time) to the Egyptians about his marital status and he nearly gave away the wife through whom the promised son would come. 

 

Did Abraham receive the blessing, a son, by doing nothing?  No he believed God and had a son because he acted on his faith.  Is righteousness credited to someone because they claim they believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?  No, they must confess, repent, and be baptized for the remission of their sins so that they might receive the Holy Spirit.  Each of these is an action that they must do.  Then they will not be slaves to obedience without choosing to be lead by the Holy Spirit.  Without being slaves to obedience then there is no righteousness, if there is no righteousness, then there is no sanctification, if there is no sanctification then there is on outcome of eternal life and they will not see the Lord.  At what point in a Christian's life do they not have to keep God's commandments?  Can they love Christ without keeping His commandments?  Can they know God without keeping His commandments?  Can they love the children of God without keeping His commandments?  The answer is a resounding NO!  All of these are accomplished by acting upon ones faith which the writer of James says perfects their faith.

He even speaks about Abraham not wavering in faith when he was told Sarah would have a child.  The very chapter you use to stake your claim that what we do as a result of our faith has nothing to do with receiving the promise (eternal life, salvation, etc.) states why Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness.

 

It was credited to Him as righteousness because he believed God, according to the text.   It doesn't say that Abraham was justified on the basis of what He did.  Abraham's works justified or affirmed His faith.   Romans 3-4 is a teaching on the universality of sin and justification by faith alone in Christ alone.  Nowhere in either of those chapters does it say that God saved Abraham on the basis of works, or that Abraham worked for salvation.  Nothing in those chapters support your godless and unrighteous theology.

 

Did Abraham receive anything without acting on his faith?  No, everything he received came after he acted on his faith that God would do as He said He would.  Faith is nothing without action.  Never has been and never will be.  The faithful of the Old Testament received approval by acting according to their faith.  Read Hebrews 11.  I ask again, how was the scripture fulfilled that "he believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"?  It was fulfilled when he offered up his son and not a minute sooner.

 

Jas 2:20-24  But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?  (21)  Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?  (22)  You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;  (23)  and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.  (24)  You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

 

Why did Christ die on the cross?  He died on the cross to redeem us from the Law and so that we could receive the promise given to Abraham, the promise of the Holy Spirit.

 

Gal 3:13-14  Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"--  (14)  in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

 

 

Actually what the text really says is that He redeemed from the curse of the law, not the law, itself.  The curse of the law, is spiritual death, separation from God.  It's the deadly results of sin.   That's what He redeemed us from.  The Law is not a curse, as the Law comes from God.   It is the law's condemnation of our sin resulting in spiritual death and eternal separation from God that Jesus dealt with on the cross.

 

Sorry.  I didn't type "curse of".  Christ destroyed the power of sin so that it would no longer have power over us and not just redeeming us from the results of sin.  The point still stands.  It was also so that we would received the promise of the Spirit.  Why is this important?  Because this is how we have been given power to no longer be enslaved to sin, no longer under its power.  Everyone wants to stop at the blood of Christ and refuses to look at ALL the grace of God.

 

We must also remember to whom Paul was writing.  He was writing to the Jews because they were still holding on to circumcision as a requirement for receiving eternal life and wanted to enforce it up on the Gentiles.

 

That is also not true.  Jews don't believe that circumcision is necessary for receiving eternal life.  That concept doesn't exist in Jewish theology and never has.  Paul was writing to the Galatians, Gentiles,  who had been infiltrated by a "Christian" Judaizing cult of believers who were placing circumcision as necessary for salvation.   He was not writing to Jews.   You really need to study the Bible a little better.   Your position is based on tons of misinformation.

 

There were Jews and there were Gentiles.  The Jews (children of Israel) were the ones who had the command of circumcision and they were trying to impress it upon the Gentiles.  I will concede that he was writing to the believers in Rome, a mix of Jews and Gentiles.  The argument against circumcision is still the same.  The Jews were trying to hold on to the old covenant of circumcision of the flesh, failing to realize that this circumcision was replaced by circumcision of the heart.  If a man was not circumcised then he would be cut off from his people, thus he would no longer be a child of God.  The Jews still believed this was true.

 

Gen 17:14  "But an uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant." 

 

 

They are not speaking of two different things.  What you fail to realize is that James 2 states that it was Abraham's faith joined with his works that fulfilled the scripture stating his faith was credited to him as righteousness.  It fulfilled the scripture which Paul speaks of in Romans.  The exact opposite of your claim that what we do based on our faith provides nothing.  In fact faith is nothing without acts of faith (works) Righteousness would not have been credited to Abraham if he had not offered his son as a sacrifice.

 

No, the are speaking to two different things.   James chapter 2 is not a treatise on salvation like we see in John 3 or Ephesians 2.   James is talking to believer about how their conduct should reflect their testimony.  He is not using the word "Justification" in a redemptive context, but in the context of letting one's works affirm their testimony.  You are confusing two different contexts  James doesn't say that Abraham was justified before God by works.   He isn't even discussing that idea.  The context of James 2 is set when James challenges the reader:  Show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith by my works."   It's not about salvation being secured by works.  It is about salvation being demonstrated by works.

 

Abraham's faith was credited to Him as righteousness long before Isaac was born.  Abraham was justified by faith 25 years before he was even circumcised, long before he took Isaac to Mt. Moriah.  Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac is based on the promise of God made in a blood covenant.  It is based on Abraham's faith in God's integrity and His faith was strong enough to move Him to trust God even when it didn't make sense.   So your position is really based on a sloppy approach to Scripture. 

 

How was the scripture fulfilled that "he believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"?  It was fulfilled when he offered up his son and not a minute sooner.  Fulfilled as in satisfied the statement like a contract.  It was then credited, not when he believed.

 

Jas 2:20-24  But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?  (21)  Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?  (22)  You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;  (23)  and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.  (24)  You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

First you are neglecting the fact that one must walk in the Light as He is in the Light and that in Him there is no darkness.

 

No, I am not neglecting that at all.

 

Do you have to met the condition of 1 John 1:7 in order to have the blood of Christ cleanse you?  If you say no , then you are neglecting the walking in the Light.  If you are not neglecting it then how do you define walking in the Light in view of in God there is no darkness.

 

This means sin can not be present in the Light.   Second, I don't know what Greek dictionary you are using, because poieo means to do or perform, not practice.  I use both Strong's and Thayer's dictionaries.

 

Well that explains a lot.  But the problem is that Strongs and Thayers don't tell the whole story.  They give you a base meaning of the word, but the don't analyze how a word is used in a given passage.  Having said that, even Strong's indicates that perform and continue are how the word is used in certain contexts.   Greek scholar, Spiros Zodihates has this to say about this word used in I John:

 

Spoken of a course of action or conduct, to do, execute, exercise, practice, krísin poiéō (krísin [G2920], judgment), to do judgment, to act as judge, equivalent to krínō (G2919), judge (Joh. 5:27; Jud.1:15). Specifically of right, duty, virtue (Joh 3:21; Rom. 2:14; Rom.10:5; 1Jn.1:6; 1Jn. 2:29; 1Jn.3:7

 

This does explain a lot.  You took chose the one word (practice) out of five that might support your claim while the other four (course of action or conduct, to do, execute, exercise) define singular actions.  You say practice means to habitually sin.  I ask you what habitually means.  Is it committing a sin one time, ten times, 100 times, etc.?  The problem is it only take s me choosing to commit murder one time to make me a murder. There is no practice in committing a murder.  This can be applied to every sin.  When the Bible speaks of ceasing or abstaining from sin it states ALL.  It doesn't say strive to cease or abstain, it just says do it.  Similarly when Christ says ALL he means ALL.  He told the Apostles to go and make disciples of men, teaching them to obey ALL that I have commanded.  When He says if you love me you will keep my commandments He means ALL.  There are no clarifying terms to say you need to try to keep my commandments in order to love me.

 

Besides this you need to look again at the entire passage in chapter 3.  He starts off in verses 2-3 by saying that those who hope on being transformed as He is when He comes again they will purify themselves as He is pure.  Christ is 100% pure, no sin, therefore we as Christians must purify our selves of sin which is done by being guided by the Holy Spirit just as He did while on this earth.  

 

More false teaching.  We don't purify ourselves.  It is Christ who purifies us. It is His blood that purifies and perfects us and that has already happened, if one has trusted in Christ.  He does not purify us through our works, our efforts, but by the finished work on the cross. 

 

Did you actually read the passage?  It says "everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure."  It can't be stated any clearer.  This can only be done by the grace of God through faith in the Holy Spirit's ability to lead you out of temptation so that you are pure as He is pure.  That is to say being saved by grace, through faith, so that no one can boast just like scripture says.  Christ's blood cleanses us of our past sins, but He gave the Holy Spirit to purify us by teaching us to deny ungodliness and to live righteously and godly in the present age.  

 

Tit 2:11-14  For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,  (12)  instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,  (13)  looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,  (14)  who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

 

By claiming Christ did everything for us by dying on the cross you are claiming there is no value in the Holy Spirit, that the HS does absolutely nothing with regards to our salvation.

 

He continues in verses 4-9 speaking of those who know and abide in God.  He says they cannot sin, not that sinning is impossible for them but that they can not know and abide in God and sin at the same time.  Then he goes on to speak about hating our brother saying in verse 17, "whoever has the world's goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him".  This is a singular event, not something repeated habitually.  Finally he finishes the chapter by declaring who abides in God.  He says that it is those who keep His commandments.

 

Sorry but you are not competent to interpret Scripture.  Your position is based on flesh and not based on the Holy Spirit.  God is not in anything you teach.  He says that they cannot continue in sin and that is borne in the Greek for anyone competent to handle it.

 

I am a little offended at you comment and apparently you didn't read what I wrote.  I will restate in hopes that you will understand my intent.  If a person continues to sin (does not keep His commandments, love God and love the children of God) then he does not know or abide in God. Continues does not mean commits multiple sins.  If it did then I could commit every sin known and still abide in God because I have not habitually committed the same sin.  Here again is the problem with using practices and habitually for definitions.

 

1Jn 2:3-6  By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.  (4)  The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;  (5)  but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:  (6)  the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

 

1Jn 3:21-24  Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God;  (22)  and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.  (23)  This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.  (24)  The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

 

One can no commit sin and abide in God at the same time, so how do you claim that even though we sin we abide in God and He in us?

 

 

Grace isn't for the people who live perfectly.  If you think you live perfectly and sinlessly, then you don't need Jesus.  If Jesus is our perfecter and your efforts make you perfect, then one of you is unnecessary.

 

Your statement demonstrates that you have not understood anything I have written.  As state above, we are saved by grace through faith in what God has promised us.  If I believe god is able to keep me from stumbling (sinning) and I fulfill the law of God by following the instructions of the Holy Spirit whom he has given me than the glory is His.  Notice that doing so is only possible because Christ died on the cross and returned to the Father so that He could send His Spirit, the Helper, to help me in my time of need.  God says we are not tempted beyond what we can bear and will always provide the way out when I need it, IF I look to Him for the way out.  One is only able to walk perfectly (with sin no longer present in his life) through what Christ provided, the Holy Spirit.  If you take Christ away then you are also taking His Spirit away and the person could no longer walk perfectly.  Also without Christ our past sins would not be cleansed because he is no longer walking in the Light as He is in the Light.

 

In other words my claim is that Christ and His Spirit are required to be able to walk as He walked.

 

 

I agree, the works (acts of faith) don't cleanse us from our past sins, but His blood won't continue to cleanse us of our past sins unless we are walking in the Light as He is in the Light.  There is a condition which must be met in order to continually be cleansed of our former sins.  Please read the verse again and my previous statements.

 

The Bible doesn't say that.  You are trying to impose conditions not spoken of in the scripture.  It doesn't say that the blood of Jesus cleanses only when we don't sin.  If we don't sin, if we are perfectly sinless there is nothing for the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from.    Blood of Jesus cleansing a believer makes no sense if the believer is as perfect and sinless as Jesus is, in the first place.  Again, you are a false teacher and all TRUE Christians need to reject your heretical views.

 

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

(Eph 1:11-14)

 

The indwelling Holy Spirit has sealed me until that final day and He is the guarantee of my inheritance which I receive because I am in Christ and believed in Him.  It is my faith in Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit that guarntees my inheritance according to that passage.   ]

 

How do you define walking in the Light as He is in the Light when there is no darkness (sin) in Him?

 

How is the Spirit our seal guaranteeing our salvation to come?  That would be exactly as I have been stating this entire time, through sanctification.  For it is the Spirit who sanctifies us, guiding us in the path that we should go so that we will not fulfill the desires of flesh(we will no longer be slaves to sin).  In contrast to sin, we will produce the fruit of the Spirit, presenting our members as slaves of obedience/righteousness, resulting in sanctification without which we will not see the Lord (receive eternal life).  Without the HS it is impossible to be sanctified.  Romans 6, Galatians 5:17-25, and Hebrews 12:4.  Our salvation is guaranteed by grace through faith in the HS ability to guide me.  Where is the contradiction in scripture?

 

What is the gospel of your salvation?  Is it simply that Christ came in the form of man and died on the cross for the forgiveness of your sins?  Or does it include receiving the promised HS who will help us in our times of need just like the HS helped Christ.  For it was through the HS that He offered Himself without blemish, demonstrating how we are to walk and can walk.

[Guest Butero]

I have been reading some of the responses in this thread, and some of the things being said are completely disrespectful to the other poster, and it is the kind of rhetoric that is causing fights and threads to be closed.  This is an interdenominational message board, and not everyone believes is unconditional eternal security.  There is a large portion of the Christian Church world that completely rejects it.  The people that hold to it claim nearly all the church believes in OSAS, and only a handful of heretics reject it, but that is not the case.  Anyway, here are a few comments that I personally would find offensive if someone said them to me.

 

 

You are outside of Christianity and outside of Christ given that you trust in works for salvation and not in Christ alone.

 

 

 

Nothing in those chapters support your godless and unrighteous theology.

 

 

 

You really need to study your Bible a little better.

 

 

 

More false teaching.

 

 

 

Sorry, but you are not competent to interpret scripture.

 

 

 

God is not in anything you teach.

 

 

Shiloh, I am sure you believe every word of this is true, and you feel like you need to stamp out false teaching wherever it rears it's ugly head to protect the hearers from false doctrine, but the problem is, the Christian Church as a whole isn't in agreement with you.  They are not in agreement with Mr. Nice either, but there are a lot of people that believe we have to walk according to certain standards to remain saved.  This isn't a web-site that is exclusively following the teachings of Luther and others that hold to unconditional eternal security.  There are people here from many different churches and that hold to many different beliefs, and that doesn't make them outside of Christianity, Godless and incompetent.  I have been having to take a hard look lately at the way I have been discussing things with people I don't agree with, and the language I use that can be inflammatory.  These kind of statements cause people to get angry, they do nothing to change minds and hearts, and they get threads closed down.  It is getting to the place where we cannot even discuss doctrine anymore without the thread getting closed before we get anywhere because of internal fighting.  The place is getting boring because we cannot discuss different points of view.  We might as well ban doctrinal discussions and spend all of our time with Bible trivia and games.  It is getting that bad, and even then, I wonder if we wouldn't eventually wind up fighting. 

 

All that being said, there are scriptures that can be used to defend OSAS and scriptures that can be used to oppose OSAS.  Those who believe it will put the emphasis on certain scriptures while taking those that seemingly don't agree and coming up with creative interpretations.  Those on the other side do the exact same thing.  It is unreasonable to accuse people on either side of being outside of Christianity or false teachers.  Of course there is a right and wrong, but both sides are convinced they are in the right, so what good does it do to name call and become verbally abusive towards those you don't agree with?  How about lets try listening to each other and trying to come to a better understanding of what the other side is saying?  That is just my two cents for what it is worth.  If you want to attack me for saying what I did, be my guest.  I know I have been guilty of this kind of behavior myself, but I am attempting to change so we can learn something from each other.  I find it very disheartening when threads keep getting closed down, just when they get interesting. 

[Wildstar]

Okay I was reading through some of the posts.  Don't mind me if I chime in as well.  I think it's interesting and maybe I can help steer the convo in a different direction at the least. 

First off I will start with this verse

 

Ecclesiastes 7:20

"For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not."

 

Now I believe the word of God is standing for all time. That this applies to us as well.  Because Jesus didn't take our flesh away - the same flesh that desires to sin.  He simply took away our sin forever and ever by his righteous works (as you folks know by now, I believe in the water/blood).  So in light of that what sin is left in the world?  1 John 2:2 says "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."  Read that carefully.  Not only for our sins, meaning the churches sin.  But the whole worlds sin was blotted out through Jesus work!  Even John the baptist testified that Jesus took away the sin of the world. 

 

1 John is very plain I like to think.  In 1 John 1 you have him saying "If you say you have not sinned, you make him a liar"  which is fair enough.  Every man has committed sin.  Even with the thoughts and intentions of the heart, those too are sin!  God looks at the heart after all.  Next verse says "If we confess our sin he is just to forgive us our sin" and I believe that as well.  I confessed my sin and I believed that Jesus took away all my sin when He did his work so long ago.  The next passage states "if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us"  Of course, I just confessed I did have sin, and that he took it away.  I do believe I am sinless through his work forever!  I don't believe I am being contradicting at all.  I am sure you all can read something in more than one way, even if you don't believe it. 

 

1 John also says in 1 John 2:1 "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One."  It says if we do sin we have an advocate with Christ, speaking on our behalf.  Of course all the apostles say DONT SIN!  Even Jesus told us to 'repent' meaning to turn from our evil ways!  Repentance in the heart is important.  Read Ecclesiastes 7:20 again.  I do believe Jesus didn't take our flesh away, as I stated.  But he did give His spirit which desires and spurns us to do good.  I don't believe I myself am capable to do good, if I do good it is because God has led me to do that.  I don't believe you can have the holy spirit without the water, blood, and spirit.  As they all come in one package.  1 John 5:8 can attest to that.  You have all parts or none. 

 

1 John 3:3 states "All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure."  showing that faith in Jesus purifies you.  Which is obvious, when you read passages like Acts 10:43-47 of those people simply hearing, believing, repenting in heart receiving the holy spirit as the apostle is still speaking, having not even being water baptized yet if you read the rest of the passage.  Faith saves, faith is important.

 

1 John 3:6 states " No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him."  it is more of a statement than him trying to explain something.  Just read it at face value.  No one who lives on him keeps sinning.. right.  but how can you interpret 'no one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him'?  it is true that is that case.  But in previous verses we show that if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the father.  So taking that into consideration we can say that a Christian who is living in repentance is living in the newness of life, but he or she also knows that they will sin at times.

 

1 John 3:9 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God."  I don't believe anyone born of God can sin because... of their faith in him taking it all away.  For me it feels impossible to become a sinner unless I abandon the faith.

 

Anyways just my own input.  My own opinion / beliefs.  Hopefully it added something.

 

 

All that being said, there are scriptures that can be used to defend OSAS and scriptures that can be used to oppose OSAS. 

That's true.  As someone who doesn't believe in OSAS I usually bring up the letters to the churches in revelations and Jesus warnings to his born again saints.  There is no doubt that they are born again in the way the conversation goes between God and the church.  He then states he will take it away if you don't do this or that.  Whether it is to endure to the end.  To repent or have the spirit taken away.  Repent or have the lamp stand removed.  etc.   I think that as an example shows it is possible to lose salvation then.  Since they quite possibly could have.  But they would have to abandon the faith.  In this case either by simply refusal to repent and give into Gods demands.  Or not continuing in their faith till death. 

[Guest shiloh357]

 

That's true.  As someone who doesn't believe in OSAS I usually bring up the letters to the churches in revelations and Jesus warnings to his born again saints.  There is no doubt that they are born again in the way the conversation goes between God and the church.  He then states he will take it away if you don't do this or that.  Whether it is to endure to the end.  To repent or have the spirit taken away.  Repent or have the lamp stand removed.  etc.   I think that as an example shows it is possible to lose salvation then.  Since they quite possibly could have.  But they would have to abandon the faith.  In this case either by simply refusal to repent and give into Gods demands.  Or not continuing in their faith till death.

 

 

That is a wrong handling of those letters to the churches in Revelation.  Jesus was addressing churches as corporate congregations, not individual believers.   Taking their lamp stand away doesn't mean "losing salvation." You are assigning that value to the text.   He never claims anywhere in those passages to take away salvation from anyone.

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh, I am sure you believe every word of this is true, and you feel like you need to stamp out false teaching wherever it rears it's ugly head to protect the hearers from false doctrine, but the problem is, the Christian Church as a whole isn't in agreement with you.  They are not in agreement with Mr. Nice either, but there are a lot of people that believe we have to walk according to certain standards to remain saved.

 

Yes, I know and people who teach that are putting for a false gospel of works-based righteousness and such are preaching a message that contradicts salvation by grace through faith.  But truth is arrived at by a majority vote.  Truth stands independent of who believes it or who many believe it. 

 

People who are putting their faith in their own efforts for salvation have stepped outside of Christ and outside the Gospel.   The Gospel is not mixture of grace and works.  It is God's grace alone.   Putting any measure of faith in our efforts to get or keep salvation, is futile as God doesn't save on that basis.  Putting any measure of faith in works or personal effort is a sure fire way to end up in hell.

 

There is a standard which we must attain to in order to be saved.  The problem is that you can't live up to that standard.   The commandments God gives us to walk into don't raise us to that standard.   You cannot obey God good enough to meet the standard needed to keep yourself saved.  Jesus met that standard for you, on your behalf.   He satisfied God's requirements and He imputes that to you.   We are commanded to live holy lives in response to, and as a reflection of the work Jesus did on our behalf, not to keep ourselves saved.

 

There is not ONE verse in the Bible about working to maintain salvation.  That is just a made up, fictitious concept.   You are not good enough to maintain salvation.  To claim that one can maintain their salvation is place oneself on equal footing with Jesus.  It is pretend that one is a co-savior along with Jesus and it diminishes Jesus' work on the cross and glorifies self.

[enoob57]

but there are a lot of people that believe we have to walk according to certain standards to remain saved.

Yes and these are spoken of here:

Matt 7:22

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not

prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils?

and in thy name done many wonderful works?

KJV

It is without argument that these people are relying on their deeds for justification!

but

Matt 7:23

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart

from me, ye that work iniquity.

KJV

The whole outlay of understanding lies in the fact that we can deceive ourselves into

believing we are doing and are saved... but the specific truth or narrowness of the

path is

Rom 7:14-8:2

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold

under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I

would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the

law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in

me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth

no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to

perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I

would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but

sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I

would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the

law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of

sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the

body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with

the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh

the law of sin. 8 There is therefore now no condemnation to

them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh,

but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in

Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

KJV

Because Scripture has taught me justification I do not follow the path of self examined

fruit as a reliance but in a broken spirit and contrite heart know my Lord has with Himself

provided both the salvation and the fruit for His glory unto The Father...

When in s(S)pirit my total effort is prayerful requisition of His desires, His will, His

supply, His love to give back to Him and to others this is The Fruit of The Holy Spirit...

So as my source in the begin was of God. So now I look to my source to God. So then I will

look to my source in God to remain with Him! Love, Steven

[Guest Butero]

The problem is Shiloh and Enoob, the people who believe you must continue to live up to a certain standard to remain saved use scripture to defend their position, as you do.  They are just as strong in their beliefs as you are in yours.  They will claim you are using scriptures out of context, as you are claiming they are doing.  They will reject that what they are doing is the same as those in Matthew 7, because they are acknowledging they can't be saved without grace and faith in Christ.  You both think the other is the false teacher. 

 

You say that there is not one verse in the Bible about maintaining salvation.  At the same time, Mr. Nice gave scriptures to show you must maintain salvation.  Now I recognize what you mean is not that he isn't providing scripture, but you believe he is misusing scripture.  He does not.  He is giving you scripture that he is saying shows you must maintain salvation.  You are acting like they don't exist, because you are saying they are out of context.  Then you will present scripture that defends your position, and others will say you are misusing scripture and out of context.  Imagine them coming back and saying there is not a verse in the Bible that teaches OSAS.  You would say that was ridiculous and provide scripture, when they mean that the scriptures you are using to defend it are being misused.  How do I know, and how does anyone else know who the real false teacher is, you or Mr. Nice and those who agree with him? 

[Guest shiloh357]

The problem is Shiloh and Enoob, the people who believe you must continue to live up to a certain standard to remain saved use scripture to defend their position, as you do. 

No, they twist scripture and rip it out of context.  Most of the Scriptures that are used to prove such claims are, in context, not even talking about salvation.   People who hold those claims are trying to mold the Bible around their theology. 

 

They are just as strong in their beliefs as you are in yours.  They will claim you are using scriptures out of context, as you are claiming they are doing. 

 

The difference is that I can prove they are taking them out of context.  The difference is that I don't pit the Bible against itself.  I don't have a cache of Scriptures to use against them.   I simply take the Scriptures they use and put those Scriptures back in their original context and correct their misuse.

 

They will reject that what they are doing is the same as those in Matthew 7, because they are acknowledging they can't be saved without grace and faith in Christ.  You both think the other is the false teacher. 

 

They claim that they can't be saved without the grace and faith in Christ, but when you follow their claims to their logical conclusion, grace and faith are insufficient and by logical extension, Jesus is insufficient for salvation.   Whether they stay saved is not based on grace or faith, but personal performance.   They claim that they needed grace to initially get saved, but after that, grace is out the window.  After the get saved, it is up to them, not up to Jesus for them to actually remain saved.    They deny the grace of God and depend on works and ultimately, it is they, not Jesus who saves them.  They become their own savior. They become their own messiah.  They take the glory and credit for salvation. 

 

See the Galatians thought they had to live up to the standards of the law to stay saved too.   Paul said them  "Having begun in the Spirit are you now made perfect in the flesh?"   Unfortunately, if  Paul were to ask some people that question, they would say,  "yes, I am made perfect in the flesh. I am made perfect through my works and my efforts.  I don't really need Jesus anymore.  He saved from the sins I committed before I got saved, but  He's really no good to me now.   I am the savior and I am saving myself."  Who needs Jesus when you can save yourself by maintaining your own salvation??

 

You say that there is not one verse in the Bible about maintaining salvation.  At the same time, Mr. Nice gave scriptures to show you must maintain salvation. 

 

No, he didn't.   Neither you nor Mr. Nice can produce on shred of properly handled Scripture that says we have to maintain our salvation.  You can produce a lot of proof texts that you have imposed a tortured interpretation upon, but neither of you know how to correctly exegete Scripture.

 

 

Now I recognize what you mean is not that he isn't providing scripture, but you believe he is misusing scripture.  He does not.  He is giving you scripture that he is saying shows you must maintain salvation.  You are acting like they don't exist, because you are saying they are out of context.  Then you will present scripture that defends your position, and others will say you are misusing scripture and out of context. 

 

No, I don't have to present a separate set of Scriptures.  I have learned how to take the Scriptures that you Mr. Nice present and rescue them from the train wreck of theology that you assign them to.

 

 

Imagine them coming back and saying there is not a verse in the Bible that teaches OSAS.  You would say that was ridiculous and provide scripture, when they mean that the scriptures you are using to defend it are being misused.  How do I know, and how does anyone else know who the real false teacher is, you or Mr. Nice and those who agree with him?

 

I am sure that is how the scenario works in your mind, but I don't have to present a separate set of Scriptures defending eternal security.  All I have to do is challenge the way you mishandle the Scriptures you present.

[MorningGlory]

I have been reading some of the responses in this thread, and some of the things being said are completely disrespectful to the other poster, and it is the kind of rhetoric that is causing fights and threads to be closed.  This is an interdenominational message board, and not everyone believes is unconditional eternal security.  There is a large portion of the Christian Church world that completely rejects it.  The people that hold to it claim nearly all the church believes in OSAS, and only a handful of heretics reject it, but that is not the case.  Anyway, here are a few comments that I personally would find offensive if someone said them to me.

 

 

You are outside of Christianity and outside of Christ given that you trust in works for salvation and not in Christ alone.

 

 

 

Nothing in those chapters support your godless and unrighteous theology.

 

 

 

You really need to study your Bible a little better.

 

 

 

More false teaching.

 

 

 

Sorry, but you are not competent to interpret scripture.

 

 

 

God is not in anything you teach.

 

 

Shiloh, I am sure you believe every word of this is true, and you feel like you need to stamp out false teaching wherever it rears it's ugly head to protect the hearers from false doctrine, but the problem is, the Christian Church as a whole isn't in agreement with you.  They are not in agreement with Mr. Nice either, but there are a lot of people that believe we have to walk according to certain standards to remain saved.  This isn't a web-site that is exclusively following the teachings of Luther and others that hold to unconditional eternal security.  There are people here from many different churches and that hold to many different beliefs, and that doesn't make them outside of Christianity, Godless and incompetent.  I have been having to take a hard look lately at the way I have been discussing things with people I don't agree with, and the language I use that can be inflammatory.  These kind of statements cause people to get angry, they do nothing to change minds and hearts, and they get threads closed down.  It is getting to the place where we cannot even discuss doctrine anymore without the thread getting closed before we get anywhere because of internal fighting.  The place is getting boring because we cannot discuss different points of view.  We might as well ban doctrinal discussions and spend all of our time with Bible trivia and games.  It is getting that bad, and even then, I wonder if we wouldn't eventually wind up fighting. 

 

All that being said, there are scriptures that can be used to defend OSAS and scriptures that can be used to oppose OSAS.  Those who believe it will put the emphasis on certain scriptures while taking those that seemingly don't agree and coming up with creative interpretations.  Those on the other side do the exact same thing.  It is unreasonable to accuse people on either side of being outside of Christianity or false teachers.  Of course there is a right and wrong, but both sides are convinced they are in the right, so what good does it do to name call and become verbally abusive towards those you don't agree with?  How about lets try listening to each other and trying to come to a better understanding of what the other side is saying?  That is just my two cents for what it is worth.  If you want to attack me for saying what I did, be my guest.  I know I have been guilty of this kind of behavior myself, but I am attempting to change so we can learn something from each other.  I find it very disheartening when threads keep getting closed down, just when they get interesting. 

 

I haven't posted in awhile but I have to agree with you here, Butero.  There is no call or justification for putting others down.  If we are to change minds and hearts we have to give our reasons for what we believe and then step back and wait to see the result.  Only God can know another's state of faith. 

[Guest Butero]

Thanks MorningGlory.  I have just seen a lot of good discussions shut down because of things like that. 

 

@Shiloh. you just did exactly what I have said people on both sides do.  You claim that those who don't agree with you are taking scriptures out of context, and you are proving they are wrong by putting them back in context.  You further say they are imposing a tortured interpretation on it, and trying to mold the Bible around their theology.  Here is the problem.  When I read your posts, I see you doing exactly what you are accusing others of.  I see you taking scriptures out of context, imposing a tortured interpretation on them and trying to mold them around your theology.  I saw you doing that when you were debating over whether or not gentiles become adopted Jews, and you were debating another member of WB.  Now, of course, you believe you "proved" your side was right, but the funny thing is, only those who started out with your belief will accept that as being the case.  Those of us who don't agree with you don't believe you proved anything.  Just as is the case on OSAS, I don't believe you have straightened out anything or proven anything.  All I have seen you do is accuse others of not understanding the proper way of interpreting scripture, claiming you proved they were wrong, and throwing out insults when they kept arguing with you.  If you proved your case, everyone would agree with you.  Nobody on either side of any of the controversial debates has proven their side correct, or the matter would be settled.  We wouldn't have all the denominational disagreements we do, and all the church would come together in unity.  Smarter men than either of us have always disagreed on these matters.  That is because it is not as clearly stated in scripture as you make out. 

 

I do have a question for you and Enoob.  Before I do ask it, I do want to clear one thing up.  Those of us that believe one must continue to live by certain standards to remain saved still believe we need grace, because we acknowledge we do things that are wrong without meaning to, and sometimes don't recognize it.  We also acknowledge we must seek forgiveness for any new sins that come to our attention, which still leaves us powerless to save ourselves without grace.  I just wanted to clear that up before asking this question of both of you.  Enoob seemed to suggest that those who don't accept OSAS are among the group that will be said to have done good works, but not really saved at the final judgment.  That is not really surprising.  Those who don't agree with OSAS will often say those who hold to it don't live right, promote false doctrine, and aren't really saved.  That is another one of those accusations thrown around, and another example of judging others in the church.  It does bring up a question.  Lets suppose a person gets saved in a church that teaches OSAS, and has full faith that only grace has saved them, and nothing they do can cause them to lose it.  Down the road, lets say they visit WB, and read the posts by Mr. Nice, and he persuades them he is right.  Now, they cease to believe in OSAS, and believe they must maintain their salvation.  Will they be among the lost for not trusting fully in Christ alone?  In other words, can moving away from belief in OSAS cause someone who is saved to lose their salvation?  I would love to get a response from both of you, as I am not sure you both are in complete agreement.

 

Thanks for your reply in advance.