The two witnesses

[Last Daze]

Throughout all of God's Word, Christ's second coming to gather His Church is a one-time event, not several. Per 1 Thess.5, 2 Pet.3:10, and Rev.16:15, it's timing is marked by the "as a thief in the night" metaphor which is linked in two of those examples with the events of the Day of The Lord. The Old Testament prophets also contain many details about that Day of The Lord so as to know the timing and order of Apostle Paul's "times and the seasons" of 1 Thess.5 which the brethren he spoke that to already knew.

 

The seven vials run concurrent with the seven trumpets. At Rev.16:15 within the sixth vial timing, our Jesus is still warning His Church on earth that He comes "as a thief", and to be careful to keep their garments lest they walk in shame. The next event is His gathering of the kings of the earth and great armies to do battle at Armageddon which our Lord Jesus returning with His saints from Heaven will fight on the last day of this present world.

 

Yes.  This is a very important point and often overlooked or brushed aside.  The scriptures are worth posting.

 

Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 1 Thess 5:1-2

 

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief...   2 Peter 3:10

 

Located between the sixth and seventh trumpet we find:

 

Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.  Rev 16:15

 

Add to that this passage:

 

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction...  2 Thess 2:1-3

 

And it's pretty clear that our gathering together to Him (resurrection / rapture) is at the day of the Lord which is during the seventh trumpet / bowl.

 

----------------------------

 

My thought on two witnesses is that their ministry runs concurrent with that of the false prophet.  I see them as the "Moses and Aaron" of the last days.

[Rick-Parker]

It may be "clear" to you, but it is not to me. At the Rapture, we meet Christ in the clouds and we go with him to the place that He has prepared for us. His feet never touch the ground. At His Second coming, Christ touches the earth at the very place of His Ascention. Two different events. Two different groups of Believers. That is what is clear to me.

[Last Daze]

It may be "clear" to you, but it is not to me. At the Rapture, we meet Christ in the clouds and we go with him to the place that He has prepared for us. His feet never touch the ground. At His Second coming, Christ touches the earth at the very place of His Ascention. Two different events. Two different groups of Believers. That is what is clear to me.

 

I agree with you that they are two separate events.  At the seventh (last) trumpet, which is on the last day, the resurrection / rapture event occurs where we are caught up to Him.  At the seventh bowl, Jesus returns and touches the earth in the same way He ascended.  The events of the seventh trumpet and bowl are known as the day of the Lord.  It's quite a busy day and, yes, I believe they occur within a 24 hour period, possibly less.

 

Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.  1 Corinthians 15:51-52

 

I don't know of a trumpet that sounds after the seventh one does so I consider that the last one.  Also notice that what people refer to as the "rapture" is part of a larger event.  It is preceded by the dead in Christ rising first.  That's why I refer to the event as the "resurrection / rapture".  The resurrection happens on the last day.

 

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.  John 6:44

 

So you have the last trumpet on the last day to correspond to the resurrection on the last day / rapture at the last trumpet.

[Cyrus]

.

The two witnesses in Rev 11 are symbolic of the two sets of holy martyrs in the fifth seal.

The Greek term for martyr means witness. God's Law requires the testimony of at least

two witnesses before guilt can be judged, punishment executed. That is why God sent

two witnesses [two angels] to Sodom before God destroyed it.

.

[*Zion*]

.

The two witnesses in Rev 11 are symbolic of the two sets of holy martyrs in the fifth seal.

The Greek term for martyr means witness. God's Law requires the testimony of at least

two witnesses before guilt can be judged, punishment executed. That is why God sent

two witnesses [two angels] to Sodom before God destroyed it.

.

 

That's a lot of people who have swords in their mouths and and can call fire from heaven to devour those who oppose them... I think I'll just stick to the two mentioned.

[Sister]

Forgive me if this has already been covered, but I haven't been here a while...

 

I always thought that the two witnesses appeared after the rapture, but now some scholars are saying (on youtube) that they appear before the rapture takes place.  Given the lack of chronology that the book of Revelations provides, can one truly piece together the events in order?  When do the two witnesses appear?  If it's before the rapture than we had better look out for them, right?

 

Thoughts and viewpoints much appreciated

Hi Zion

 

To find out the order of events, we have to go to the scriptures.  Here a little, there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept.

In other words, God doesn't hand these precious jewels to us all on a silver platter, but we have to read and search his word, hungry for truth, until a picture forms, just like you would with a jigsaw puzzle.  The little pieces scattered everywhere have to fit exactly into the right part of the picture, and we cannot force it where it doesn't belong.  If we rely on God's word alone, and trust him that he can guide us, then he will deliver and give us that clear picture.  If we go to men to find the answer, then we are not doing what is required of us and can be deceived.  I'm not saying we can't share what we all know and learn of each other, but saying to put the time aside and seek God's word first, because the answers are in there.

 

If you are curious about the two witnesses, we can guide you to Revelations.

 

Revelation 11:3   And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:7   And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 11:8   And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

  Revelation 11:9   And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

  Revelation 11:10   And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

  Revelation 11:11   And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

  Revelation 11:12   And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

  Revelation 11:13   And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

 

Revelation 11:14   The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

  Revelation 11:15   And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

The two witnesses will witness in Israel for 1260 days. This is just short of 3 1/2 years.  After they are killed,  three and a half days later, they are resurrected with the whole world watching them.  This happens on the 2nd woe.  The 2nd woe is the 6th trumpet/vial stage.  The 3rd woe comes quickly, which is the coming, the 7th trumpet.

 

The tribulation lasts for 3 1/2 years on the whole world. (This starts after the Mark of the Beast is issued, then the 7 angels will sound with the 7 trumpets/vials on all those who have the mark of the beast)

 

The scriptures say that the False prophet and the beast (10 kings) will attack and occupy Israel for 3 1/2 years (1290 days).  This is called "Jacob's Trouble".  A very hard time for Israel.

The two witnesses begin witnessing in Israel one month after the False Prophet invades.

They will witness almost the whole length of the tribulation, just short of 30 days.

At the end of their testimony is the Coming.

 

When the False Prophet (Son of Perdition) comes, he will introduce a new system for the world to follow.  This new system is centered on "The Mark of the Beast".  Without this mark we cannot buy or sell.  We will go hungry and homeless, and be very destitute without this mark. We will be persecuted also for not participating in the system.  We all have to make this decision - take the mark and live, or refuse it and die.  We all cannot escape this decision we have to make.  There is absolutely no way out of it.  This is a very big test for all Christians, nobody gets out of it.  Everything we have learn't leads up to this day.  Are we prepared, or are we naked?  If we are prepared, then we have done our homework and fed on Christ's flesh, which is the Word of God.  The Word of God reveals everything to us, his whole plan right up to the end so we are not in darkness.  We will not survive on blind faith, because it must be backed with knowledge of these events to come. It is so important because we are going to be living through these times, and our salvation depends on it.

 

If we know these events, then Christ has fed us as promised. We will be clothed when the time comes. Clothed with truth which is the basis of our faith.  Without this truth we will fall asleep in a false security.   The bible does not mention a "rapture", but a resurrection of the saints which comes at the end of the tribulation, the 7th trumpet/vial.

I wish there was an easy way out, so we don't have to face this terrible time, but unfortunately there's not.  If we just keep our eyes on the reward that Christ will bring with him, then we will get through it with his help, knowing death is not the end, but the beginning because when we are resurrected, it will all be over and worth it to be a part of the beautiful kingdom that is coming, where we finally get to meet our Lord face to face, and have him proud of us and not ashamed.  What a beautiful thing to look forward to, and it cannot compare to anything in this world that we may lose.

 

So if our starting point is a rapture, the complete opposite to what the scriptures say, then time to start searching the scriptures for ourselves to get truth.

 

God bless.

[Serving]

 

.

The two witnesses in Rev 11 are symbolic of the two sets of holy martyrs in the fifth seal.

The Greek term for martyr means witness. God's Law requires the testimony of at least

two witnesses before guilt can be judged, punishment executed. That is why God sent

two witnesses [two angels] to Sodom before God destroyed it.

.

 

That's a lot of people who have swords in their mouths and and can call fire from heaven to devour those who oppose them... I think I'll just stick to the two mentioned.

 

 

Hi  Zion.

 

Agreed.

 

Blessings.

[Serving]

 

Forgive me if this has already been covered, but I haven't been here a while...

 

I always thought that the two witnesses appeared after the rapture, but now some scholars are saying (on youtube) that they appear before the rapture takes place.  Given the lack of chronology that the book of Revelations provides, can one truly piece together the events in order?  When do the two witnesses appear?  If it's before the rapture than we had better look out for them, right?

 

Thoughts and viewpoints much appreciated

Hi Zion

 

To find out the order of events, we have to go to the scriptures.  Here a little, there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept.

In other words, God doesn't hand these precious jewels to us all on a silver platter, but we have to read and search his word, hungry for truth, until a picture forms, just like you would with a jigsaw puzzle.  The little pieces scattered everywhere have to fit exactly into the right part of the picture, and we cannot force it where it doesn't belong.  If we rely on God's word alone, and trust him that he can guide us, then he will deliver and give us that clear picture.  If we go to men to find the answer, then we are not doing what is required of us and can be deceived.  I'm not saying we can't share what we all know and learn of each other, but saying to put the time aside and seek God's word first, because the answers are in there.

 

If you are curious about the two witnesses, we can guide you to Revelations.

 

Revelation 11:3   And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:7   And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 11:8   And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

  Revelation 11:9   And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

  Revelation 11:10   And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

  Revelation 11:11   And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

  Revelation 11:12   And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

  Revelation 11:13   And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

 

Revelation 11:14   The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

  Revelation 11:15   And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

The two witnesses will witness in Israel for 1260 days. This is just short of 3 1/2 years.  After they are killed,  three and a half days later, they are resurrected with the whole world watching them.  This happens on the 2nd woe.  The 2nd woe is the 6th trumpet/vial stage.  The 3rd woe comes quickly, which is the coming, the 7th trumpet.

 

The tribulation lasts for 3 1/2 years on the whole world. (This starts after the Mark of the Beast is issued, then the 7 angels will sound with the 7 trumpets/vials on all those who have the mark of the beast)

 

The scriptures say that the False prophet and the beast (10 kings) will attack and occupy Israel for 3 1/2 years (1290 days).  This is called "Jacob's Trouble".  A very hard time for Israel.

The two witnesses begin witnessing in Israel one month after the False Prophet invades.

They will witness almost the whole length of the tribulation, just short of 30 days.

At the end of their testimony is the Coming.

 

When the False Prophet (Son of Perdition) comes, he will introduce a new system for the world to follow.  This new system is centered on "The Mark of the Beast".  Without this mark we cannot buy or sell.  We will go hungry and homeless, and be very destitute without this mark. We will be persecuted also for not participating in the system.  We all have to make this decision - take the mark and live, or refuse it and die.  We all cannot escape this decision we have to make.  There is absolutely no way out of it.  This is a very big test for all Christians, nobody gets out of it.  Everything we have learn't leads up to this day.  Are we prepared, or are we naked?  If we are prepared, then we have done our homework and fed on Christ's flesh, which is the Word of God.  The Word of God reveals everything to us, his whole plan right up to the end so we are not in darkness.  We will not survive on blind faith, because it must be backed with knowledge of these events to come. It is so important because we are going to be living through these times, and our salvation depends on it.

 

If we know these events, then Christ has fed us as promised. We will be clothed when the time comes. Clothed with truth which is the basis of our faith.  Without this truth we will fall asleep in a false security.   The bible does not mention a "rapture", but a resurrection of the saints which comes at the end of the tribulation, the 7th trumpet/vial.

I wish there was an easy way out, so we don't have to face this terrible time, but unfortunately there's not.  If we just keep our eyes on the reward that Christ will bring with him, then we will get through it with his help, knowing death is not the end, but the beginning because when we are resurrected, it will all be over and worth it to be a part of the beautiful kingdom that is coming, where we finally get to meet our Lord face to face, and have him proud of us and not ashamed.  What a beautiful thing to look forward to, and it cannot compare to anything in this world that we may lose.

 

So if our starting point is a rapture, the complete opposite to what the scriptures say, then time to start searching the scriptures for ourselves to get truth.

 

God bless.

 

Hi Sister,

 

Good post & Agreed.

 

Blessed is he that waiteth and cometh to the 1335th day!

 

Blessings.

[*Zion*]

 

Forgive me if this has already been covered, but I haven't been here a while...

 

I always thought that the two witnesses appeared after the rapture, but now some scholars are saying (on youtube) that they appear before the rapture takes place.  Given the lack of chronology that the book of Revelations provides, can one truly piece together the events in order?  When do the two witnesses appear?  If it's before the rapture than we had better look out for them, right?

 

Thoughts and viewpoints much appreciated

Hi Zion

 

To find out the order of events, we have to go to the scriptures.  Here a little, there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept.

In other words, God doesn't hand these precious jewels to us all on a silver platter, but we have to read and search his word, hungry for truth, until a picture forms, just like you would with a jigsaw puzzle.  The little pieces scattered everywhere have to fit exactly into the right part of the picture, and we cannot force it where it doesn't belong.  If we rely on God's word alone, and trust him that he can guide us, then he will deliver and give us that clear picture.  If we go to men to find the answer, then we are not doing what is required of us and can be deceived.  I'm not saying we can't share what we all know and learn of each other, but saying to put the time aside and seek God's word first, because the answers are in there.

 

 

Thanks, I was just asking, that's all...

[WilliamL]

... The bible does not mention a "rapture", but a resurrection of the saints which comes at the end of the tribulation, the 7th trumpet/vial. ...

 

So if our starting point is a rapture, the complete opposite to what the scriptures say, then time to start searching the scriptures for ourselves to get truth.

A common misconception. The Bible (1 Thes 4:17 and elsewhere) speaks of a catching/snatching up/away, from the Greek verb harpazo. The Latin translation for this verb is rapere, one of the declensions of which is rapture. We get our English word raptor -- a bird that catches up its prey -- from this term.

 

So the word rapture is a very real Biblical word in the Old Latin and Old French Bibles, and the term has simply been borrowed into English for what takes place when "we who are alive and remain shall be caught up/raptured together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."