The 144,000 First-Fruits

[Sister]

I have decided to bring one more piece of evidence forward. You don't have to agree with me, It's what I can see.  Anyone can take it or leave it.  I just happen to think that this scripture is a real jewel and I want to share it.

 

 

 Revelation 11:1   And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

  Revelation 11:2   But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

 

The temple of God cannot be measured as a building, because this building is spiritual.

The altar is where there true worshipers stand spiritually.

But within this spiritual building, it's true worshipers living can be measured at this certain point.

and to measure them, they have to be counted.

 

Anyone not standing right at the altar, which is where the sacrifices are offered, will not be counted.

It's as simple as that.

 

If we are not standing at the altar, at this time of measuring, we will be in the outer court, and not inside the inner court.

If we are standing in the outer court, then we will be given into the hands of gentiles, to do what they like with us for 3 1/2 years.

 

Daniel 7:25   And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

 

Who.... have we been shown... are numbered and counted at a certain point in time?

Who's sacrifices at the altar do you think were accepted?

If you are at the altar, you are right before the throne of God, spiritually speaking.

You cannot get any closer than that.

 

God is not after sacrifices of lambs, bulls and goats.

Our sacrifices are spiritual.

Every sin that we sacrifice to God is noted, no matter how big or small.

The small sacrifices lead to the big sacrifices.

But how many sacrifices are we willing to make, or have made?

We all must ask ourselves this.

 

So when this head count takes place, of the living, and none of us know exactly when, but we worked out it was before the 7 angels start to sound,

so before this, if we have not made our garments white, at the time of the measuring,

we will be left in the outer court, in the hands of the gentiles.

And we know what they are going to do.

We will then be forced to make our robes white by making a huge, final sacrifice to compensate for all the other sacrifices we never made during our walk,

in other words, for never reaching that altar, because something was holding us back.

 

So the whole "court" in the temple of God, is not situated in Jerusalem only,

but throughout the whole earth, and it is made up of worshipers from every nation.

And within that court there will be a separation amongst believers according to the sacrifices one has made at the altar.

If in the outer court we will be purified by fire.

 

Those whose sacrifices were accepted, were those that followed the Lamb wheresoever he goes.

They are measured by being numbered.

And it's this number that will be spared from purification by fire...

 

Now think of how Abraham was prepared to offer his son as a sacrifice.  At the last moment, the angel of the Lord stopped him.

Because Abraham was willing to please God, and go all the way for him, was counted as an honour from God as if he had carried it through.

God sees right into the heart.  He can't be fooled.

We must all prepare for the hard times ahead, and prepare spiritually for what we will go through.  Like Abraham, we do not plan for an easy exit, but plan to go the whole distance, and be standing spiritually at that altar where we have given it our all.

 

God bless you all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hindsfeet]

Ezek 9 gives a great OT account of measuring the temple and those who worship within/are appalled at the abominations, and what I see as a clear chronological timetable of some end time events (Rev 11)

What I am currently plagued by, and maybe someone can help me out here, why in Chron 1 21, when David measured/numbered the people, was this a transgression?

[Last Daze]

I have decided to bring one more piece of evidence forward. You don't have to agree with me, It's what I can see.  Anyone can take it or leave it.  I just happen to think that this scripture is a real jewel and I want to share it.

 

 

 Revelation 11:1   And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

  Revelation 11:2   But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

 

The temple of God cannot be measured as a building, because this building is spiritual.

The altar is where there true worshipers stand spiritually.

But within this spiritual building, it's true worshipers living can be measured at this certain point.

and to measure them, they have to be counted.

 

Anyone not standing right at the altar, which is where the sacrifices are offered, will not be counted.

It's as simple as that.

 

If we are not standing at the altar, at this time of measuring, we will be in the outer court, and not inside the inner court.

If we are standing in the outer court, then we will be given into the hands of gentiles, to do what they like with us for 3 1/2 years.

 

Daniel 7:25   And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

 

Who.... have we been shown... are numbered and counted at a certain point in time?

Who's sacrifices at the altar do you think were accepted?

If you are at the altar, you are right before the throne of God, spiritually speaking.

You cannot get any closer than that.

 

God is not after sacrifices of lambs, bulls and goats.

Our sacrifices are spiritual.

Every sin that we sacrifice to God is noted, no matter how big or small.

The small sacrifices lead to the big sacrifices.

But how many sacrifices are we willing to make, or have made?

We all must ask ourselves this.

 

So when this head count takes place, of the living, and none of us know exactly when, but we worked out it was before the 7 angels start to sound,

so before this, if we have not made our garments white, at the time of the measuring,

we will be left in the outer court, in the hands of the gentiles.

And we know what they are going to do.

We will then be forced to make our robes white by making a huge, final sacrifice to compensate for all the other sacrifices we never made during our walk,

in other words, for never reaching that altar, because something was holding us back.

 

So the whole "court" in the temple of God, is not situated in Jerusalem only,

but throughout the whole earth, and it is made up of worshipers from every nation.

And within that court there will be a separation amongst believers according to the sacrifices one has made at the altar.

If in the outer court we will be purified by fire.

 

Those whose sacrifices were accepted, were those that followed the Lamb wheresoever he goes.

They are measured by being numbered.

And it's this number that will be spared from purification by fire...

 

Now think of how Abraham was prepared to offer his son as a sacrifice.  At the last moment, the angel of the Lord stopped him.

Because Abraham was willing to please God, and go all the way for him, was counted as an honour from God as if he had carried it through.

God sees right into the heart.  He can't be fooled.

We must all prepare for the hard times ahead, and prepare spiritually for what we will go through.  Like Abraham, we do not plan for an easy exit, but plan to go the whole distance, and be standing spiritually at that altar where we have given it our all.

 

God bless you all.

 

That's an interesting interpretation, certainly worth a good musing.

[BJ66]

Hello All

 

Try this difference of opinion as tied to scripture.

 

The three best scriptural ‘tethers’ regarding the 144,000 are the following:

1. They are sealed (Rev 7:4)*
2. They are firstfruits (Rev 14:4)**
3. They are strictly Jewish and of the twelve tribes (Rev 7:4)***

 

*Revelation 7:4 (NKJV)

4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

 

**Revelation 14:4 (NKJV)

4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

 

***Revelation 7:4 (NKJV)

4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

 

 

So in testing these three characteristics of the 144,000 here is what is found:

 

 

#1 - Testing the New Testament for “seal”, these are the relevant findings:

 

John 6:27 (NKJV)

27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

 

Romans 15:28 (NKJV)

28 Therefore, when I have performed this and have sealed to them this fruit, I shall go by way of you to Spain.

 

2 Corinthians 1:21–22 (NKJV)

21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God,

22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

 

Ephesians 1:13 (NKJV)

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

 

Ephesians 4:30 (NKJV)

30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

 

2 Timothy 2:19 (NKJV)

19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

 

 

The conclusion, based on scripture – not conjecture – is that the seal would be the Holy Spirit given to believers (or do you suppose these 144,000 are not believers?). 

 

 

#2 - Testing the New Testament for ‘firstfruits’, these are the relevant findings:

 

Christ is called the “firstfruit” (singular) twice in 2 Cor 15

• 1 Corinthians 15:20 (NKJV)

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

• 1 Corinthians 15:23 (NKJV)

23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

 

Paul links himself to the 144,000 by saying he is a ‘firstfruit’.  He further links himself with the ‘seal’ of the Holy Spirit which is of course only available if you are ‘the Lambs’.

• Romans 8:23 (NKJV)

23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

 

James also links himself to the 144,000 by saying he is a ‘firstfruit’. 

• James 1:18 (NKJV)

18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

 

The conclusion, based on scripture – not conjecture – is that the firstfruits… the 144,000…  are the founders of Christendom – true “first” fruits.

 

 

#3 – Demonstrating that these 144,000 of the tribes of Israel

 

James pens his letter “to the twelve tribes in the Dispersion” (James 1:1), Christian Jews who have been sent out as evangelists.  It is in this letter, as mentioned above, that James includes himself and these other Jews in the ‘firstfruits’, in the 144,000.

 

• James 1:1 (HCSB)

1 James, a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ: To the 12 tribes in the Dispersion (Christian Jews). Greetings.

• James 1:18 (NKJV)

18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

 

The conclusion, based on scripture – not conjecture – is that the firstfruits… the 144,000…  are the Jewish founders of Christendom – true “first” fruits.   

 

Romans 1:16 (HCSB)

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is God’s power for salvation to everyone who believes, first to the Jew, and also to the Greek.

 

bj

[Sister]

 

What I am currently plagued by, and maybe someone can help me out here, why in Chron 1 21, when David measured/numbered the people, was this a transgression?

This is why God was angry

 

 1 Chronicles 21:1   And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

 

David listened to Satan, and did not consult God before doing this.

He knew God was guiding him in all decisions, but listened to the enemy instead.

 

David knew in his heart straight after what he had done was wrong,..... that he went ahead without God's permission, and was punished for it.

 

God knows Satan's intentions for numbering people, and where it will lead to.

Satan's had this idea for a very long time.

[Serving]

Hi BJ66,

 

Concerning point three ..

 

 

Try this difference of opinion as tied to scripture.

 

The three best scriptural ‘tethers’ regarding the 144,000 are the following:
1.They are sealed (Rev 7:4)*
2.They are firstfruits (Rev 14:4)**
3.They are strictly Jewish and of the twelve tribes (Rev 7:4)***

 

 

 

The 144k being Strictly Jewish is correct, yet, defining "strictly Jewish" must be taken in context against how God Himself would define "strictly Jewish", and not how men / historians / theologians and especially Israelites would define it.

 

Besides the New Testament definition of "(spiritual Jewishness" commonly used as a counter argument, let's go further back and see how God defined "strictly Jewish" in ye old days ..

 

  

Leviticus 19:

 

33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.

 

34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

 

 

Exodus 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

 

 

Joshua 14:13 And Joshua blessed him, and gave unto Caleb the son of Jephunneh Hebron for an inheritance.

 

 

Joshua 14:14 Hebron therefore became the inheritance of Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite unto this day, because that he wholly followed the LORD God of Israel.

 

 

>> Clearly these requirements in God's view are enough to make one "strictly Jewish" .. but .. a question still remains .. these strangers being accepted by God amongst His people .. are they also counted amongst the tribes?

 

 

Ezekiel 47:22 And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.

 

Ezekiel 47:23 And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD.

 

Yes they are.

 

Looks to me that God's definition of "strictly Jewish", even back then, even before grace came into the world (relating to "spiritual Jew" as per God's standard in the NT) , was a "Jewishness" somewhat differently defined, a somewhat broader standard than the one in the implied standard you have brought forth .. it is after all God's definition here, thus it is God who decides "strictly Jewishness" and of which tribe that accepted "one" will be of. 

 

And remembering that these 144k are Christians, and in light of the above OT parameters of "strictly Jewish", wouldn't the definition of "strictly Jewish" by God's NT standards be even broader still?

 

That makes for a less restrictive definition than merely sticking to bloodlines or even geographic locations for deciding ones "strictly Jewishness" would it not?

 

In light of God's standard reflecting down from the above, the matter of ones  "Jewishness"  .. to God .. therefore, is not bound by mans narrow definition of "Jewishness", but instead is loosened and justly broadened by Gods own definition unhindered.    

 

Now, regarding this statement :

 

 

 

 

The conclusion, based on scripture – not conjecture – is that the seal would be the Holy Spirit given to believers (or do you suppose these 144,000 are not believers?).

 

 

We must not get distracted by broadening the argument to include all men who have been sealed with it's far broader and distractive implications, we stay focussed, because in this topic we are only concerned with the 144k sealed that God is defining, not men.

 

 

For it leads to this erroneous assumption :

 

 

 

 

Paul links himself to the 144,000 by saying he is a ‘firstfruit’.  He further links himself with the ‘seal’ of the Holy Spirit which is of course only available if you are ‘the Lambs’.
•Romans 8:23 (NKJV)

23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

 

 

 

 

Paul did not link himself to the 144k here at all, instead, he was acknowledging that he was amongst those who first received the Holy Spirit amongst men.

 

You see, God decided to whom the first group of receivers of that Holy Spirit amongst men would be .. this is clearly a different kind of firstfruits being exampled here, it is simply another usage of it's meaning unlike Gods defining of firstfruits in Revelation, which is obviously concentrating on a particular numbered group at a specific time and under differing circumstances to the above example .. all which were defined by God Himself.

 

 

 

 

James also links himself to the 144,000 by saying he is a ‘firstfruit’.
•James 1:18 (NKJV)

18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

 

 

 

Not accurate, the key word in the above is kind.

 

...that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

  

Again, this is along the lines of Pauls definition, not at all to do with that small group of 144k from revelation, different subject altogether.

 

 

 

 

The conclusion, based on scripture – not conjecture – is that the firstfruits… the 144,000…  are the founders of Christendom – true “first” fruits.

#3 – Demonstrating that these 144,000 of the tribes of Israel

 

James pens his letter “to the twelve tribes in the Dispersion” (James 1:1), Christian Jews who have been sent out as evangelists.  It is in this letter, as mentioned above, that James includes himself and these other Jews in the ‘firstfruits’, in the 144,000.

 
•James 1:1 (HCSB)

1 James, a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ: To the 12 tribes in the Dispersion (Christian Jews). Greetings.
•James 1:18 (NKJV)

18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

 

The conclusion, based on scripture – not conjecture – is that the firstfruits… the 144,000…  are the Jewish founders of Christendom – true “first” fruits.

 

  

 

Unfortunately, scripture has a problem with this final conclusion ..

 

 

If all were Strictly Jewish founders making up the 144 000 ..

 

 

Q: Then how do you reconcile this :

 

Mark 3:18 And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite,

 

 

This straight away contradicts your definition of "strictly Jewish" I am afraid,  along with "the 144,000…  are the Jewish founders of Christendom – true “first” fruits".

 

 

With all humility .. out of the three points you gave, that one verse alone undid two of your major arguments ..

 

 

Therefore the  possibility that the 144k firstfruits being the special last days group (todays generation), scripturally, still stands.

 

 

Thanks BJ66.  

Edited March 12, 2015 by Serving

[WilliamL]

 

 

What I am currently plagued by, and maybe someone can help me out here, why in Chron 1 21, when David measured/numbered the people, was this a transgression?

This is why God was angry

 

 1 Chronicles 21:1   And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

 

David listened to Satan, and did not consult God before doing this.

He knew God was guiding him in all decisions, but listened to the enemy instead.

 

David knew in his heart straight after what he had done was wrong,..... that he went ahead without God's permission, and was punished for it.

 

God knows Satan's intentions for numbering people, and where it will lead to.

Satan's had this idea for a very long time.

True in part, but there is more to it. David was numbering the people out of pride, which certainly is devil-inspired. However, he could have been justified anyway if he had merely followed the Law of Moses after he numbered them:

 

Ex. 30:12 “When you take the census of the children of Israel for their number, then every man shall give a ransom for himself to the LORD, when you number them, that there may be no plague among them when you number them. 13 This is what everyone among those who are numbered shall give: half a shekel according to the shekel of the sanctuary (a shekel is twenty gerahs). The half-shekel shall be an offering to the LORD. ... 16 And you shall take the atonement money of the children of Israel, and shall appoint it for the service of the tabernacle of meeting, that it may be a memorial for the children of Israel before the LORD, to make atonement for yourselves.”

 

David did not collect the atonement money, and thus the plague was released upon the people, just as Mosaic Law forewarned.

Edited March 12, 2015 by WilliamL