The 144,000 First-Fruits

[Sister]

This topic has been carried over from "The 7 Seals" thread, as it is has gone into another direction.

 

The discussion was between Salty and myself, and all are most welcome to join in.

 

This is the discussion so far.

 

I have stated that I believe the 144,000, who are numbered out of the 12 tribes of Israel, are not necessarily Israel of race, but spiritual Israel which consist of Gentiles and Jews who follow the Lamb.  I believe this to be an elite group, especially chosen and hand picked by God to be witnesses to the Truth in the last days, and shown separately for God's purpose. 

Although the scriptures clearly state that there will be remnants of Israel, I do not see this group of 144,000 as the remnants, but of the first resurrection which happens close to the end of the tribulation.

 

I have been trying to use reason here, and so has Salty, and we can continue here without hijacking the other thread, as this topic has always been a bit of a mystery, and is worth a discussion in depth.

 

I will come back here later as there is much to cover, and in the meantime, if anyone wants to voice their view, or provide scriptures, please feel free.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

I have stated that I believe the 144,000, who are numbered out of the 12 tribes of Israel,

are not necessarily Israel of race, but spiritual Israel which consist

of Gentiles and Jews who follow the Lamb.

 

 

Pretty Much Only The Children Of Israel (Of Jacob)

 

And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. Revelation 7:4-8

 

Who Even Now, As We Fellowship Together,

Are Fighting For Their Very Existence

In The Land Of Their Fathers

 

~

 

Interesting Discussion Beloved

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Littlelambseativy]

Fresno you are correct. That is specified by the Tribe and the number. Spiritual Israel is grafted in because of acceptance of Jesus as our Redeemer but we are not 'true' Israel. Israel during the Tribulation will accept hearing about Jesus their Messiah from one of their own...true and family line.

Even now many Jews will hear the gospel only from their own people not Gentiles who they believe are proselytizing to them.

[Qnts2]

Fresno you are correct. That is specified by the Tribe and the number. Spiritual Israel is grafted in because of acceptance of Jesus as our Redeemer but we are not 'true' Israel. Israel during the Tribulation will accept hearing about Jesus their Messiah from one of their own...true and family line.

Even now many Jews will hear the gospel only from their own people not Gentiles who they believe are proselytizing to them.

 

I agree with Fresno, and with much of what you said. 

 

The 144,000 are physical children of Israel. Since the tribes are mentioned, that is a physical linage.

 

I do not believe Gentile believers in Jesus are 'spiritual Israel'. Jewish and Gentile believers are the body of Messiah, the adopted sons of God, the assembly of believers. While some Jews/some children of Israel are included in the body, the body is not 'spiritual' Israel.  

 

Just another comment. At this time, Jewish people will listen to Gentiles about Jesus. A lot of Jewish people who have heard the gospel and believed, heard it first from Gentiles. Jewish people think that most Gentiles are Christians, and somewhat expect Gentiles to talk about Jesus. On the otherhand, most Jewish people are upset with Messianic Jews as they view Messianic Jews as abandoning the Jewish faith. So, Gentiles start the conversation, and then as a Jewish person starts to seriously consider Who Jesus is, they will sometimes want to talk to a Jewish believer, to ask questions about concerns about being Jewish and believing on Jesus.  

[wingnut-]

I also have to agree that the 144,000 are Jewish based on the information specifying such in scripture.  I do see them as the remnant spoken of by the prophets, and I also do not see them as being witnesses.  According to Hosea they will be taken aside by the Lord.

 

Hosea 2:¹⁴ “Therefore I am now going to allure her;
    I will lead her into the wilderness
    and speak tenderly to her.
¹⁵ There I will give her back her vineyards,
    and will make the Valley of Achor a door of hope.
There she will respond as in the days of her youth,
    as in the day she came up out of Egypt.

 

And according to Revelation they will be protected from Satan for 3 1/2 years.

 

Revelation 12:¹⁴ The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.

 

I also think it is important to note what Paul wrote in I Corinthians 15 regarding the firstfruits, where scripture states that Jesus is the firstfruits, not the Jews.

 

I Corinthians 15:²⁰ But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

 

Just something for your consideration, God bless you.

[Guest]

Sometimes

Even The "Church"

Seems To Me To Miss The Heart Of KING Jesus

 

And the King shall answer and say unto them,

 

Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

 

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

 

I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

 

Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

 

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you,

 

Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

 

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:

 

but the righteous into life eternal. Matthew 25:40-46

 

~

 

I also think it is important to note what Paul wrote in I Corinthians 15 regarding the firstfruits, where scripture states that Jesus is the firstfruits, not the Jews.

 

  I Corinthians 15::20   But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

 

Just something for your consideration, God bless you.

 

 

Amen~!

 

Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the LORD. Jeremiah 31:20

 

Beloved, Jesus Is Now And Forevermore

 

And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people;

 

to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. Isaiah 11:10

 

A Jew

 

And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross.

 

And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS. John 19:19

 

And My LORD And My God

 

And Thomas answered and said unto him,

 

My Lord and my God. John 20:28

 

~

 

God Bless The Jew

 

For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.

 

For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me.

 

Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD. Zechariah 2:8-10

 

And God Bless Their Children, The IDF

 

He teacheth my hands to war; so that a bow of steel is broken by mine arms. 2 Samuel 22:35

 

~

 

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

 

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

 

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Sister]

Thank you everyone.

 

Can anyone tell me when these 144,000 get sealed?

 

 

Revelation 7:3   Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Revelation 7:4   And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

[wingnut-]

Thank you everyone.

 

Can anyone tell me when these 144,000 get sealed?

 

 

Revelation 7:3   Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Revelation 7:4   And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

 

At the midway point, right about the time the antichrist will rise from the fatal head wound.  Somewhere around the time of the 5th trumpet.

[Last Daze]

 

Thank you everyone.

 

Can anyone tell me when these 144,000 get sealed?

 

 

Revelation 7:3   Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Revelation 7:4   And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

 

At the midway point, right about the time the antichrist will rise from the fatal head wound.  Somewhere around the time of the 5th trumpet.

 

 

If you see Revelation 7 as being after the sixth seal and before the seventh, as I do, then they are sealed just after the great tribulation ends (sixth seal) and just before God's judgment of the trumpets / bowls (seventh seal).

[WilliamL]

 

 

Thank you everyone.

 

Can anyone tell me when these 144,000 get sealed?

 

 

Revelation 7:3   Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Revelation 7:4   And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

 

If you see Revelation 7 as being after the sixth seal and before the seventh, as I do, then they are sealed just after the great tribulation ends (sixth seal) and just before God's judgment of the trumpets / bowls (seventh seal).

 

Agreed.

 

As I've written before, the Church is a spiritual (ruach) body, while Israel is a blood-and-soul race. The elect of the Church, who live according to the Spirit, will be taken up in Spirit. The race of Israel will remain upon earth, to fulfill YHWH's earthly promises of land and kingdom made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob through their soul-line's/race's seed. That earthly kingdom is established at the 7th Trumpet, after the 1260 days/3-1/2 times/42 months of "Jacob's trouble" are fulfilled. (Established, but not yet overcoming all nations until the 7th Bowl is accomplished.)

 

At Mount Sinai, when God descended in fire, cloud, earthquake, and with shofar the first time, 70 elders of Israel went up into and were sanctified in his Presence, then returned to earth, so to speak. But Moses and Joshua remained upon the mountain. These things were a type of when Jesus/God descends in fire, cloud, earthquake, and with shofar the second time. The 144,000 will be sanctified by the Presence, "sealed in their foreheads," but then return (physically? mentally?) to earth to become the earthly leaders of Israel, just as the 70 elders were to Israel in their day.

 

So their sealing will take place at the same time as the Rapture of the elect, who will remain upon heavenly Mount Zion, like Moses and Joshua remained upon Mount Sinai.