How Do Angels And Demons Fight?

[Ezra]

There is no scriptural support that the Holy Spirit will be removed, or that His role will ever change, quite the opposite in fact.

 

I guess you did not care to go to the Scripture reference and think about it, so let's bring that Scripture to everyone's attention (2 Thess 2:6,7):

⁶And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

⁷For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

 

In the context of 2 Thess 2:1-12, what exactly is Paul revealing?

v 3 -- The Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition (the Antichrist)  must be revealed at the appropriate time, which is after the Falling Away or Apostasy of Christendom

 

v 4 -- The Antichrist is the greatest blasphemer of all -- he will present himself as "God"

 

v 5 -- The Thessalonians had already heard about this matter

 

v 6 -- There is a restraint and a Restrainer  holding back  the appearance of the Antichrist (accompanied by Satan v. 9)  until he be revealed "in his time" (Rev 13:1-18).  "What withholdeth" is a translation from the Greek το κατεχον (to katechon) = THAT WHICH RESTRAINS (literal).

 

v 7 -- The Restrainer is the One who restrains, until He be TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY.

 

So now the first question is who has the power to restrain Satan on earth, and hold back the appearance of the Antichrist? Scripture is very, very clear that GOD ALONE has the power to restrain and rebuke Satan (Jude 9).  Even Michael the archangel, who is an extremely power chief angel, could only say regarding the body of Moses "The Lord rebuke thee" to Satan, and could only cast Satan down to the earth (Rev 12:7-9).

 

The second question is which Person of the Godhead can be "taken out of the way [ ἕως ἐκ μέσου γένηται ( eōs ek mesou genētai) =  "out of the midst he be gone"]?  We know that God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ are in Heaven on their thrones.  We also know that the Holy Spirit is on this earth while the Church is being assembled, and He indwells all believers while He convicts and convinces the world. So it should be evident, that when the Church is raptured, the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way", which is a pre-condition for Satan and the Antichrist to take full control of this earth.

 

[Most Preterist commentators apply these verses to the Roman Empire, which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.]

[JustinM]

I feel that the realms that the fighting is occurring in, are not Heaven or Earth, but the space between.  Evil cannot exist in the presence of God, so to me that would mean that evil beings could not be in the presence of God either. 

 

Also, we are made in God's image, why would He make us physical and Himself spiritual if we are in His image?  He is a physical, Heavenly being, but has set up a barrier between us and Him due to our corrupted state, similar to the curtain that separated the Holy of Holies from the rest of the temple.

 

He is very present and very real, just as we are, He's just in a place that we cannot access.

 

I believe that if its possible for angels or demons to exist, then it is possible for them to not exist too.  If one of these beings should be destroyed in battle, they would cease to exist.  I believe it is completely within the power of God to create more angels should He need to.

 

I don't know if Lucifer has the power to create beings, I do know he was the most powerful of all the angels, so the idea of him being able to create is not a far fetched theory.

 

I know the last stop for Lucifer will be Earth, when he is cast down from the heavens.  What a sight that will be, Lucifer and all his angels falling to the Earth.  His power will be greatly diminished, but he will still be the most powerful being on the planet, we know how gullible people can be, so convincing them to follow him and worship him as a god will not be a very difficult task to accomplish.

[Floatingaxe]

I feel that the realms that the fighting is occurring in, are not Heaven or Earth, but the space between.  Evil cannot exist in the presence of God, so to me that would mean that evil beings could not be in the presence of God either. 

 

Also, we are made in God's image, why would He make us physical and Himself spiritual if we are in His image?  He is a physical, Heavenly being, but has set up a barrier between us and Him due to our corrupted state, similar to the curtain that separated the Holy of Holies from the rest of the temple.

 

He is very present and very real, just as we are, He's just in a place that we cannot access.

 

I believe that if its possible for angels or demons to exist, then it is possible for them to not exist too.  If one of these beings should be destroyed in battle, they would cease to exist.  I believe it is completely within the power of God to create more angels should He need to.

 

I don't know if Lucifer has the power to create beings, I do know he was the most powerful of all the angels, so the idea of him being able to create is not a far fetched theory.

 

I know the last stop for Lucifer will be Earth, when he is cast down from the heavens.  What a sight that will be, Lucifer and all his angels falling to the Earth.  His power will be greatly diminished, but he will still be the most powerful being on the planet, we know how gullible people can be, so convincing them to follow him and worship him as a god will not be a very difficult task to accomplish.

 

Sorry, Justin, but God has REMOVED the barrier between Himself and us when Jesus finished His work on the cross.

 

Only God is the Creator. Satan is a created being. We need to remember that, and stop giving him more credit and power than he already has, which is minuscule compared to God. Satan is not the opposite of God! He is a lesser creation---an angel. Satan has already been cast down to earth! This is his domain, and as far as being "the most powerful being on the planet"---wrong! Christians have power over him because of Jesus Christ in us! He is under my feet. What about yours?

[wingnut-]

 

There is no scriptural support that the Holy Spirit will be removed, or that His role will ever change, quite the opposite in fact.

 

I guess you did not care to go to the Scripture reference and think about it, so let's bring that Scripture to everyone's attention (2 Thess 2:6,7):

⁶And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

⁷For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

 

In the context of 2 Thess 2:1-12, what exactly is Paul revealing?

v 3 -- The Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition (the Antichrist)  must be revealed at the appropriate time, which is after the Falling Away or Apostasy of Christendom

 

v 4 -- The Antichrist is the greatest blasphemer of all -- he will present himself as "God"

 

v 5 -- The Thessalonians had already heard about this matter

 

v 6 -- There is a restraint and a Restrainer  holding back  the appearance of the Antichrist (accompanied by Satan v. 9)  until he be revealed "in his time" (Rev 13:1-18).  "What withholdeth" is a translation from the Greek το κατεχον (to katechon) = THAT WHICH RESTRAINS (literal).

 

v 7 -- The Restrainer is the One who restrains, until He be TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY.

 

So now the first question is who has the power to restrain Satan on earth, and hold back the appearance of the Antichrist? Scripture is very, very clear that GOD ALONE has the power to restrain and rebuke Satan (Jude 9).  Even Michael the archangel, who is an extremely power chief angel, could only say regarding the body of Moses "The Lord rebuke thee" to Satan, and could only cast Satan down to the earth (Rev 12:7-9).

 

The second question is which Person of the Godhead can be "taken out of the way [ ἕως ἐκ μέσου γένηται ( eōs ek mesou genētai) =  "out of the midst he be gone"]?  We know that God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ are in Heaven on their thrones.  We also know that the Holy Spirit is on this earth while the Church is being assembled, and He indwells all believers while He convicts and convinces the world. So it should be evident, that when the Church is raptured, the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way", which is a pre-condition for Satan and the Antichrist to take full control of this earth.

 

[Most Preterist commentators apply these verses to the Roman Empire, which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.]

 

 

No, I read the passage just fine, and though you wish to capitalize the "he" in your commentary, it is not capitalized in scripture.  So who hurls Satan and his angels to the earth?  The few times Michael is mentioned in scripture, it is always in reference to dealing with Satan in some regard.  This seems to be one of his primary duties.  Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is simply going to abandon all believers during the tribulation?  How do you reconcile this scripture to your theory?

 

Joel 2:²⁸ “It will come about after this

That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;

And your sons and daughters will prophesy,

Your old men will dream dreams,

Your young men will see visions.

²⁹ “Even on the male and female servants

I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

 

 

That doesn't sound like removal to me at all, can you explain that?  Angels battle against the enemy in the spiritual realm, this is not some vague notion, it is well established in scripture.

[Kreyvic]

I'm keeping it simple. I believe that they do fight physically (but when I say physically I mean in spiritual bodies in the spiritual realm of course). They are immortal but can still feel pain, hurt each other, carry weapons and even capture and bind each other.

I agree with you there, have any of you read Paradise Lost by John Milton? I have a theory that Angels can be wounded to a certain point,and infact i believe Satan himself was wounded in the Rebellion by having one of his eye's taken out during battle. The anti-christ is supposedly to have one eye and i have a hunch that satan has one eye. It is nothing i would write in stone, just a theory!

[enoob57]

The universe is a physical place.

Jesus as God made all things, whether visible or invisible to us.

Heaven is a physical place within the universe as our earth is.

Angels are physical beings which may or may not be seen by men, according to the will of God.

 

The battles are real and physical, involving all efforts an angel can use, including weapons. ...

The Bible says differently:

 

Ps 104:4 [The LORD] maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire...

 

Judg. 13:20 For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar.

 

Angels can take physical form when coming into our physical realm, but only as garments. Only the race of Adam has flesh/physical form by its own nature. Angels in their own natures are clothed with spiritual "substances," including fire/light and spirit, depending on the which of the three heavens the Creator created them to dwell in.

I would like to add the understanding from God's Word is that before Genesis 1:1 God had created the angles

for they are written to be witnesses of the creation- the corporeal elements that we have been born into...

Job 38:1-7

38 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee,

and answer thou me. 4 Where wast thou when I laid the

foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who

hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the

foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone

thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the

sons of God shouted for joy?

KJV

Love, Steven

[Kan]

 

I'm keeping it simple. I believe that they do fight physically (but when I say physically I mean in spiritual bodies in the spiritual realm of course). They are immortal but can still feel pain, hurt each other, carry weapons and even capture and bind each other.

I agree with you there, have any of you read Paradise Lost by John Milton? I have a theory that Angels can be wounded to a certain point,and infact i believe Satan himself was wounded in the Rebellion by having one of his eye's taken out during battle. The anti-christ is supposedly to have one eye and i have a hunch that satan has one eye. It is nothing i would write in stone, just a theory!

 

If so, none of us are sorry about that !

[wingnut-]

 

I'm keeping it simple. I believe that they do fight physically (but when I say physically I mean in spiritual bodies in the spiritual realm of course). They are immortal but can still feel pain, hurt each other, carry weapons and even capture and bind each other.

I agree with you there, have any of you read Paradise Lost by John Milton? I have a theory that Angels can be wounded to a certain point,and infact i believe Satan himself was wounded in the Rebellion by having one of his eye's taken out during battle. The anti-christ is supposedly to have one eye and i have a hunch that satan has one eye. It is nothing i would write in stone, just a theory!

 

 

 

Zechariah 11:¹⁵ The Lord said to me, “Take again for yourself the equipment of a foolish shepherd. ¹⁶ For behold, I am going to raise up a shepherd in the land who will not care for the perishing, seek the scattered, heal the broken, or sustain the one standing, but will devour the flesh of the fat sheep and tear off their hoofs.

¹⁷ “Woe to the worthless shepherd

Who leaves the flock!

A sword will be on his arm

And on his right eye!

His arm will be totally withered

And his right eye will be blind.”

 

 

I believe this is the passage you are referring to.  This is in regards to a future leader of Israel, it would be a stretch to say that is the antichrist, as it appears the antichrist will come from Europe by the prophecies.