1948 and the length of One Generation

[OakWood]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The idea of imminent expectation was always strongly taught in the church.    It becomes inaccurate to those listeners only in retrospect.  A modern preacher who teaches that Jesus will be coming soon and we must be ready and prepared so we can rise together with the dead, is NOT inaccurate 100 years later when everyone he spoke to including himself has died. No-one knows the timing and so to preach the second coming to occur in our lifetimes is an accurate expression of the imminent expectation of Christ. (its an accurate doctrine even if the fulfilment is delayed)

 

Paul himself expected to be alive at the second coming, not dead. In this he was preaching the CORRECT doctrine of the imminent expectation of Christ, even though in retrospect we can see he was wrong. One such example is:

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive (STILL ALIVE? HE DIED!) and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. 

 

You see that ?  Paul inaccurately, wrongly, incorrectly expected to be ALIVE at the rapture, not among the dead. Yet Paul was ACCURATELY preaching the imminent return of Christ as he should.

 

With this as background, and knowing that even Jesus did not know the timing of his return, the Olivet discourse is consistent with the preaching of the imminent expectation of the second coming.  Whenever we address believers we speak to them as if we will see Jesus in our lifetimes, and even Jesus was consistent with this principle.  Being included in the bible, the lessons of the Olivet Discourse are applicable to Christians of all ages, and yet especially to those who will actually experience the expected signs. 

 

 

I have no problem with the preaching that Jesus could return within the lifetime of every generation, since Jesus himself warned "watch, for you do not know the day of your Lord's return." However, I do not think we need to make every passage related to the end time speak this message. Doing so causes unnecessary difficulties, e.g. how to explain "this generation" in Mt 24:34, which is the reason for this thread. If we insist that Mt 24 focuses on the end time, we have this difficulty. But if we admit that the bulk of the earlier verses talk about AD70 - which the parallel in Lk 21 shows they do - then "this generation" makes perfect sense. I do not find any of the end-time explanations for "this generation" convincing because they generally try to bypass the plain meaning of the phrase.

 

 

 

Let's not lose track on the flow of this discussion regarding the Olivet Discourse:

1) There are two questions answered, one regarding 70AD (destruction of the temple) and one regarding the second coming

2) Luke 21 confirms this by breaking down the prophecy into the final period ... and the "before all this"  earlier period

3) The "before all this" period which leads up to the signs in the sky is a huge timespan that includes the exile of the Jews and time of the Gentiles

4)  The word "you" therefore applies to a wider audience than just those Jews on the Mount of Olives

5) Even though Jesus describes his second coming as imminent, this is a common doctrine in the NT

 

With this as background,  knowing that the word "you" applies to future generations as well, and that the prophecy involves a huge timespan let's look at the context of the phrase "this generation":  In Matthew 24, unlike Luke 21, there is an extensive focus on the second coming rather than the destruction of the temple. This focus on the second coming is mainly from verse 15 through to verse 34.

 

It is in this context that Jesus mentions this generation. Read the wording carefully and you can see that Jesus is referring to the generation which exists at the first signs of the second coming:

 

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

 

What generation?  The generation that starts to see these sings of the end.  ie all the signs and events that lead up to the second coming will all occur in one generation.

 

 

The context can support either AD70 or the end time because, as you admit, Jesus spoke about both. Therefore, it is the content of what he said that shows which period he was referring to. And he said "this generation." If he were referring to the end time, he would have said "that generation." Surely, he knew that the end time would be at least 2000 years in the future. Are you suggesting that his vocabulary was so poor that he did not know the difference between "this" and "that"?

 

 

The Greek word is not as strict as you imply.  For example 28 times the same Greek word "houtos" has been translated as "the same".

 

ie when you see these signs the same generation will not pass away.  

 

But even the English grammar does not require a "that" rather than a "this".    

"This generation" does not have to mean the current generation, it can also mean the generation currently referenced.

 

The future population of New York will be much larger. This population will battle to cope with the current infrastructure.

The future population of New York will be much larger. That population will battle to cope with the current infrastructure. 

 

The first sentence is not grammatically incorrect. It may be slightly ambiguous, but context still makes the meaning clear enough. This population does not mean the current New York population, it means the population currently being referred to.   Jesus did not know the timing of the second coming, and so he would not have wanted to exclude his actual listeners from any imminent second coming by saying "that generation".  That would have removed any imminence, and would have implied that  Jesus did know the timing was in a distant generation. Jesus did not know the timing of his second coming was in a future generation and so could NOT use a word that indicated such. 

 

 

I think houtos always means this/these but it is sometimes translated as 'same' in English versions to show that there is some comparison being made. In our verse, there is no comparison being made.

 

More importantly, when used together with "generation" in the gospels - and there are quite a few other occurrences - it always means "this generation," i.e. referring to those alive at the time of Jesus. Do you know of any other passage where Jesus said "this generation" but actually meant another, later, generation? If not, making it mean "that generation" in this verse goes against that consistent usage.

 

I think, brother, you are veering into dangerous territory if you think Jesus did not know that he wasn't coming back until a future generation. It would have serious implications for his deity. I don't suggest you go there.

 

 

 

I think Jesus made it perfectly clear that he either didn't know the time himself, or he wasn't willing to reveal it.

 

But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father

 

Matthew 24:36

[Diaste]

 

Israel became a nation in 1948. Many have taught that all the events following Matthew 24 were to occur within one generation from then, while ignoring the events surrounding the destruction of the second temple.

It was clearly a mistake to interpret "generation" in Mt 24:34 (and other passages) as a generation of x number of years.  However, Scofield managed to interpret this correctly.

 

"Generation" (Greek genea ) can mean other things also, including "nation" or "family" and in this context it meant "this nation or family of Israel" shall not pass. 

Until 1948 it looked like the nation of Israel was going to be non-existent.  Today it is a flourishing nation, albeit threatened on every side.

 

Strong's 1074

genea: race, family, generation

Original Word: γενεά, ᾶς, ἡ

Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine

Transliteration: genea

Phonetic Spelling: (ghen-eh-ah')

Short Definition: a generation

Definition: a generation; if repeated twice or with another time word, practically indicates infinity of time.

 

Thayer's Greek Lexicon

STRONGS NT 1074: γενεά

γενεά, γενεάς, ἡ (ΓΑΝΩ, γίνομαι (crf. Curtius, p. 610)); the Sept. often for דּור; in Greek writings from Homer down;

2. passively, that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family;

a. properly, as early as Homer; equivalent to מִשְׁפָּחַה, Genesis 31:3, etc. σῴζειν Ρ᾽αχαβην καί τήν γενεάν αὐτῆς, Josephus, Antiquities 5, 1, 5. the several ranks in a natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy: Matthew 1:17 (ἑβδόμῃ γενεά οὗτος ἐστιν ἀπό τοῦ πρώτου, Philo, vit. Moys. i. § 2).

 

b. metaphorically, a race of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character; and especially in a bad sense a perverse race: Matthew 17:17; Mark 9:19; Luke 9:41; Luke 16:8; (Acts 2:40).

 

As to your "prophecy", you may have to admit that you were wrong, since the Rapture could occur at any time.

 

Hi,

I agree with the study you posted on generation. It's not a 'generation' as in reproductive cycle. It's an existing generation that 'sees all these things'. The only point I disagree on is the 'rapture'. It cannot occur at 'any time'.

[Diaste]

 

 

I am not a preterist but I do think the most natural way to read Mt 24:34 is that Jesus was referring to the fall of Jerusalem in AD70. It was what Jesus was talking about in v 2 that led the disciples to enquire about timing (v 3). And that prediction was fulfilled within one generation. 

 

Hummmmm......    OK lets look at this closely

 

Matt 24:32-35

32 "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender, and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 even so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 3

NASB

 

 

So what is just before this that has to happen?   I don't remember this in any history...

 

 

Matt 24:29-31

29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken,  30 and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

NASB

 

 

 

Aah...but which is closer to v 34 - is it v 29-31 or v 33? Obviously v 33. And v 33 also contains the phrase "all these things". So "all these things" in v 34 must be referring to the same things in v 33. Now, wouldn't it have been insincere of Jesus to tell his disciples listening to him - note the emphatic "you" - to look out for "these things" if he knew full well that none of them would witness "these things"?  

 

All I can say is, Wow! I read a lot of these posts about this subject and....Wow! I know that's a bit emphatic but I have to express my admiration for such dismissive cognition. Do any of you realize that Jesus was speaking to all of 'them that believe'? As was Paul, and Matt, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Jude, etc? Do any of you think that the apostles had an eternal view of history? They did. When they said 'we' and 'you' they meant all of us that believe. Scripture is replete with examples of the scope of time concerning the Coming of Jesus; eternity. None of these men were short sighted. They all knew when they died they would be resurrected in the Last Days. It would not matter if Jesus came tomorrow for them or in 10,000 years they would still have a place in the Kingdom, forever! The apostles frame of reference, as taught by Jesus in the entirety of the Word is eternity. Every believer and confessor in the resurrection and deity of Jesus is born again, resurrected and lives and reigns with Jesus in the kingdom, no matter when they lived or died! 

We are enslaved by time. Jesus and his words are not. When God sent the prophets to speak in his name about the things that God would bring to pass, those things would surely come to pass in God's time. For an eternal being time means nothing. For us centuries may pass yet for the Eternal Godhead it's mere moments. With the power of God even dead is not 'dead', time is not 'time' and eternity, the Kingdom and the people of God are the focus.

All the posturing over 'this' or 'that' and 'you' and 'we' is meaningless when parsed in the context of eternity. It means a great deal if examined in the context of the span of man but is again rendered meaningless in that context, for different reasons.

[ghtan]

 

 

 

I am not a preterist but I do think the most natural way to read Mt 24:34 is that Jesus was referring to the fall of Jerusalem in AD70. It was what Jesus was talking about in v 2 that led the disciples to enquire about timing (v 3). And that prediction was fulfilled within one generation. 

 

Hummmmm......    OK lets look at this closely

 

Matt 24:32-35

32 "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender, and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 even so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 3

NASB

 

 

So what is just before this that has to happen?   I don't remember this in any history...

 

 

Matt 24:29-31

29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken,  30 and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

NASB

 

 

 

Aah...but which is closer to v 34 - is it v 29-31 or v 33? Obviously v 33. And v 33 also contains the phrase "all these things". So "all these things" in v 34 must be referring to the same things in v 33. Now, wouldn't it have been insincere of Jesus to tell his disciples listening to him - note the emphatic "you" - to look out for "these things" if he knew full well that none of them would witness "these things"?  

 

All I can say is, Wow! I read a lot of these posts about this subject and....Wow! I know that's a bit emphatic but I have to express my admiration for such dismissive cognition. Do any of you realize that Jesus was speaking to all of 'them that believe'? As was Paul, and Matt, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Jude, etc? Do any of you think that the apostles had an eternal view of history? They did. When they said 'we' and 'you' they meant all of us that believe. Scripture is replete with examples of the scope of time concerning the Coming of Jesus; eternity. None of these men were short sighted. They all knew when they died they would be resurrected in the Last Days. It would not matter if Jesus came tomorrow for them or in 10,000 years they would still have a place in the Kingdom, forever! The apostles frame of reference, as taught by Jesus in the entirety of the Word is eternity. Every believer and confessor in the resurrection and deity of Jesus is born again, resurrected and lives and reigns with Jesus in the kingdom, no matter when they lived or died! 

We are enslaved by time. Jesus and his words are not. When God sent the prophets to speak in his name about the things that God would bring to pass, those things would surely come to pass in God's time. For an eternal being time means nothing. For us centuries may pass yet for the Eternal Godhead it's mere moments. With the power of God even dead is not 'dead', time is not 'time' and eternity, the Kingdom and the people of God are the focus.

All the posturing over 'this' or 'that' and 'you' and 'we' is meaningless when parsed in the context of eternity. It means a great deal if examined in the context of the span of man but is again rendered meaningless in that context, for different reasons.

 

Honestly don't understand what point you are trying to make in relation to this thread. Perhaps it goes to show that different people find different things meaningless.

[Diaste]

 

 

 

 

I am not a preterist but I do think the most natural way to read Mt 24:34 is that Jesus was referring to the fall of Jerusalem in AD70. It was what Jesus was talking about in v 2 that led the disciples to enquire about timing (v 3). And that prediction was fulfilled within one generation. 

 

Hummmmm......    OK lets look at this closely

 

Matt 24:32-35

32 "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender, and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 even so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 3

NASB

 

 

So what is just before this that has to happen?   I don't remember this in any history...

 

 

Matt 24:29-31

29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken,  30 and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

NASB

 

 

 

Aah...but which is closer to v 34 - is it v 29-31 or v 33? Obviously v 33. And v 33 also contains the phrase "all these things". So "all these things" in v 34 must be referring to the same things in v 33. Now, wouldn't it have been insincere of Jesus to tell his disciples listening to him - note the emphatic "you" - to look out for "these things" if he knew full well that none of them would witness "these things"?  

 

All I can say is, Wow! I read a lot of these posts about this subject and....Wow! I know that's a bit emphatic but I have to express my admiration for such dismissive cognition. Do any of you realize that Jesus was speaking to all of 'them that believe'? As was Paul, and Matt, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Jude, etc? Do any of you think that the apostles had an eternal view of history? They did. When they said 'we' and 'you' they meant all of us that believe. Scripture is replete with examples of the scope of time concerning the Coming of Jesus; eternity. None of these men were short sighted. They all knew when they died they would be resurrected in the Last Days. It would not matter if Jesus came tomorrow for them or in 10,000 years they would still have a place in the Kingdom, forever! The apostles frame of reference, as taught by Jesus in the entirety of the Word is eternity. Every believer and confessor in the resurrection and deity of Jesus is born again, resurrected and lives and reigns with Jesus in the kingdom, no matter when they lived or died! 

We are enslaved by time. Jesus and his words are not. When God sent the prophets to speak in his name about the things that God would bring to pass, those things would surely come to pass in God's time. For an eternal being time means nothing. For us centuries may pass yet for the Eternal Godhead it's mere moments. With the power of God even dead is not 'dead', time is not 'time' and eternity, the Kingdom and the people of God are the focus.

All the posturing over 'this' or 'that' and 'you' and 'we' is meaningless when parsed in the context of eternity. It means a great deal if examined in the context of the span of man but is again rendered meaningless in that context, for different reasons.

 

Honestly don't understand what point you are trying to make in relation to this thread. Perhaps it goes to show that different people find different things meaningless.

 

That man tends to have short view of eternal things. We apply a very limited frame of reference to the concepts of an eternal being.

[Guest]

I am not a preterist but I do think the most natural way to read Mt 24:34 is that Jesus was referring to the fall of Jerusalem in AD70. It was what Jesus was talking about in v 2 that led the disciples to enquire about timing (v 3). And that prediction was fulfilled within one generation. 

 

~

 

Question

 

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

 

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Matthew 24:34-36 (NIV)

 

Is This

 

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Behold, I have told you before.

Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matthew 24:21-27

 

All Passed?

 

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Matthew 24:36 (NIV)

[InSeasonOut]

Israel became a nation in 1948. Many have taught that all the events following Matthew 24 were to occur within one generation from then, while ignoring the events surrounding the destruction of the second temple. Israel wandered the desert until that present generation passed. They wandered for forty years. But many of the twentieth century have been waiting for the current generation to pass. Well forty years brings us to 1988, nothing happened, It has also been stated a generation was 70 years. Well it has been 67 years since 1948. Nothing! Some even argued that a generation was 120 years. Well, let me make a prophecy. By 2168, 120 years from 1948, the results will be the same. Nothing.

 

I have no doubt that not one of you reading this will live to see a rapture or the second advent.

 

I'll just reply directly to this... even tho im not entirely sure whats going on,,,

upfront ill say im pre trib and i believe a generation is 70 years.

 

and Matthew 24-25 is doctrinally Old testament as Jesus was not yet crucified (Luke16:16 ; Hebrews 9 :16)

and 24-25 is not rapture scripture nor is it chronological

Also the kingdom was legitimately being offered to the Jews... of course the Jews rejected their Messiah as prophesied and a transition begins after the Cross / Acts...

 

thumbs up ?

 

So im not sure where 1948 comes in even in reading other responses..

[InSeasonOut]

Israel became a nation in 1948. Many have taught that all the events following Matthew 24 were to occur within one generation from then, while ignoring the events surrounding the destruction of the second temple. Israel wandered the desert until that present generation passed. They wandered for forty years. But many of the twentieth century have been waiting for the current generation to pass. Well forty years brings us to 1988, nothing happened, It has also been stated a generation was 70 years. Well it has been 67 years since 1948. Nothing! Some even argued that a generation was 120 years. Well, let me make a prophecy. By 2168, 120 years from 1948, the results will be the same. Nothing.

 

I have no doubt that not one of you reading this will live to see a rapture or the second advent.

 

I'll just reply directly to this... even tho im not entirely sure whats going on,,,

upfront ill say im pre trib and i believe a generation is 70 years.

 

and Matthew 24-25 is doctrinally Old testament as Jesus was not yet crucified (Luke16:16 ; Hebrews 9 :16)

and 24-25 is not rapture scripture nor is it chronological

Also the kingdom was legitimately being offered to the Jews... of course the Jews rejected their Messiah as prophesied and a transition begins after the Cross / Acts...

 

thumbs up ?

 

So im not sure where 1948 comes in even in reading other responses..

[Marilyn C]

Hi Cecil,

 

Good to see you `down here.` Also good to see your position up front. I am of the same beliefs.

 

Blessings Marilyn.

[ghtan]

 

 

 

 

 

I am not a preterist but I do think the most natural way to read Mt 24:34 is that Jesus was referring to the fall of Jerusalem in AD70. It was what Jesus was talking about in v 2 that led the disciples to enquire about timing (v 3). And that prediction was fulfilled within one generation. 

 

Hummmmm......    OK lets look at this closely

 

Matt 24:32-35

32 "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender, and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 even so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 3

NASB

 

 

So what is just before this that has to happen?   I don't remember this in any history...

 

 

Matt 24:29-31

29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken,  30 and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

NASB

 

 

 

Aah...but which is closer to v 34 - is it v 29-31 or v 33? Obviously v 33. And v 33 also contains the phrase "all these things". So "all these things" in v 34 must be referring to the same things in v 33. Now, wouldn't it have been insincere of Jesus to tell his disciples listening to him - note the emphatic "you" - to look out for "these things" if he knew full well that none of them would witness "these things"?  

 

All I can say is, Wow! I read a lot of these posts about this subject and....Wow! I know that's a bit emphatic but I have to express my admiration for such dismissive cognition. Do any of you realize that Jesus was speaking to all of 'them that believe'? As was Paul, and Matt, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Jude, etc? Do any of you think that the apostles had an eternal view of history? They did. When they said 'we' and 'you' they meant all of us that believe. Scripture is replete with examples of the scope of time concerning the Coming of Jesus; eternity. None of these men were short sighted. They all knew when they died they would be resurrected in the Last Days. It would not matter if Jesus came tomorrow for them or in 10,000 years they would still have a place in the Kingdom, forever! The apostles frame of reference, as taught by Jesus in the entirety of the Word is eternity. Every believer and confessor in the resurrection and deity of Jesus is born again, resurrected and lives and reigns with Jesus in the kingdom, no matter when they lived or died! 

We are enslaved by time. Jesus and his words are not. When God sent the prophets to speak in his name about the things that God would bring to pass, those things would surely come to pass in God's time. For an eternal being time means nothing. For us centuries may pass yet for the Eternal Godhead it's mere moments. With the power of God even dead is not 'dead', time is not 'time' and eternity, the Kingdom and the people of God are the focus.

All the posturing over 'this' or 'that' and 'you' and 'we' is meaningless when parsed in the context of eternity. It means a great deal if examined in the context of the span of man but is again rendered meaningless in that context, for different reasons.

 

Honestly don't understand what point you are trying to make in relation to this thread. Perhaps it goes to show that different people find different things meaningless.

 

That man tends to have short view of eternal things. We apply a very limited frame of reference to the concepts of an eternal being.

 

Fair enough, but how does that explain what Jesus meant in Matt 24:34?